When to issue traffic alerts?

[ian]

Yesterday we were flying, and an approach controller led us to two TAs and two RAs on our TCAS....one of them, he gave us the traffic alert as we were getting the RA from TCAS...traffic was at 12 oclock, 1 mile 400 ft above opposite direction....and the other one was pretty similar except we were about to get t-boned by the other a/c. It wasn't in a busy area so what are the rules on when controllers notify you of traffic?

Also, he tried to turn us into two giant towers...and lastly vectored us to intercept the localizer below FAF altitude....don't you guys have like a MVA on your screen?

[boondr]

Originally Posted by ian

Yesterday we were flying, and an approach controller led us to two TAs and two RAs on our TCAS....one of them, he gave us the traffic alert as we were getting the RA from TCAS...traffic was at 12 oclock, 1 mile 400 ft above opposite direction....and the other one was pretty similar except we were about to get t-boned by the other a/c. It wasn't in a busy area so what are the rules on when controllers notify you of traffic?

Also, he tried to turn us into two giant towers...and lastly vectored us to intercept the localizer below FAF altitude....don't you guys have like a MVA on your screen?

"

Issue a safety alert to an aircraft if you are aware the
aircraft is in a position/altitude which, in your
judgment, places it in unsafe proximity to terrain,

obstructions, or other aircraft."

The two towers thing I have no idea, the MVA can be displayed on most modern scopes but isn't always shown(its's an ON/OFF thing)

Now as to the the altitude below the FAF altitude that happens all the time because MVA's are often below the crossing altitudes for IAPs, as long as we are providing radar services we can use the MVA for altitudes for IAPs. The IAPs published altitudes are grnerally TERP'd out for nonradar purposes

[SoonerATC]

Originally Posted by ian

It wasn't in a busy area so what are the rules on when controllers notify you of traffic?

7110.65

2-1-6. SAFETY ALERT
Issue a safety alert to an aircraft if you are aware the aircraft is in a position/altitude which, in your judgment, places it in unsafe proximity to terrain, obstructions, or other aircraft. Once the pilot informs you action is being taken to resolve the situation, you may discontinue the issuance of further alerts.

NOTE-

1. The issuance of a safety alert is a first priority (see para2-1-2, Duty Priority) once the controller observes and recognizes a situation of unsafe aircraft proximity to terrain, obstacles, or other aircraft. Conditions, such as workload, traffic volume, the quality/limitations of the radar system, and the available lead time to react are factors in determining whether it is reasonable for the controller to observe and recognize such situations. While a controller cannot see immediately the development of every situation where a safety alert must be issued, the controller must remain vigilant for such situations and issue a safety alert when the situation is recognized.


b. Aircraft Conflict/Mode C Intruder Alert.
Immediately issue/initiate an alert to an aircraft if you are aware of another aircraft at an altitude which you believe places them in unsafe proximity. If feasible, offer the pilot an alternate course of action.

Also, he tried to turn us into two giant towers...and lastly vectored us to intercept the localizer below FAF altitude....don't you guys have like a MVA on your screen?

The MVA map is a toggle on/toggle off function on the radar display. Most, if not all, controllers are required to know the various MVAs for their airspace.

Could it not have just been a possibility that he was in training?

[ian]

Originally Posted by SoonerATC

7110.65

Could it not have just been a possibility that he was in training?

Thanks for all the replies...it could have been training, but no one ever stepped over him to make any corrections while we were on that freq.

[ATC RET 2003]

In addition to the safety advisory paragraph, here's an excerpt from The Book about traffic advisories:

2-1-21. TRAFFIC ADVISORIES
Unless an aircraft is operating within Class A airspace
or omission is requested by the pilot, issue traffic
advisories to all aircraft (IFR or VFR) on your
frequency when, in your judgment, their proximity
may diminish to less than the applicable separation
minima. Where no separation minima applies, such
as for VFR aircraft outside of Class B/Class C
airspace, or a TRSA, issue traffic advisories to those
aircraft on your frequency when in your judgment
their proximity warrants it.

As for the "turn... into two giant towers" I am not aware of a situation where that would be OK.

If I were you, I would call the facility and ask the supe on duty about this stuff. That's part of what you and I are paying them to do.

[Beehive]

Originally Posted by ian

Yesterday we were flying, and an approach controller led us to two TAs and two RAs on our TCAS....one of them, he gave us the traffic alert as we were getting the RA from TCAS...traffic was at 12 oclock, 1 mile 400 ft above opposite direction....and the other one was pretty similar except we were about to get t-boned by the other a/c. It wasn't in a busy area so what are the rules on when controllers notify you of traffic?

Also, he tried to turn us into two giant towers...and lastly vectored us to intercept the localizer below FAF altitude....don't you guys have like a MVA on your screen?

Was you VFR?
I only "suggest" headings to VFR aircraft no matter the situation.
I would never lead an IFR aircraft into that situation.

[Alpha Lima]

Ya if you were VFR is a rather big catch here. If you are and put yourself below the MVA ATC can turn you and if you cant accept it for terrain/obstacle you need to let them know. If ATC assigns a VFR a/c an altitude then they have to comply with the MVA. If you were IFR here, ya totally their bad, someone needs to lose ratings.

As far as the traffic they should have been issuing it ahead of time, most likely the first guy at 400' above you was a VFR not talking to anyone. If you were IFR then the other aircraft still isnt a bust if you were in class E, traffic should have been issued ahead of time but still no foul there (assuming here since you said it was slow). Not that its ok you wernt told but still. I would call the facility and at least talk with the sup about not being told twice and getting 2 RA's from it. They should have at least put your RA's in the daily log assuming you told them you were responding.

edit: also looks like your at Columbus, which is a training base for ATC. Also if you were withing the charlie they should be talking to all the traffic. Could be a new trainee with a new trainer who wasn't taking control or a newly rated controller with no one behind them. Either way call the facility and have a talk.

[hship]

Originally Posted by ian

Yesterday we were flying, and an approach controller led us to two TAs and two RAs on our TCAS....one of them, he gave us the traffic alert as we were getting the RA from TCAS...traffic was at 12 oclock, 1 mile 400 ft above opposite direction....and the other one was pretty similar except we were about to get t-boned by the other a/c. It wasn't in a busy area so what are the rules on when controllers notify you of traffic?

Also, he tried to turn us into two giant towers...and lastly vectored us to intercept the localizer below FAF altitude....don't you guys have like a MVA on your screen?

isn't seperation 1000ft, 3 miles? it may have changed since i controlled last, but unless it went down, and i doubt it did, they busted seperation with the feet rule. 400ft is really close.....did you file a HATR? what did you do?

[ian]

Originally Posted by Alpha Lima

Ya if you were VFR is a rather big catch here. If you are and put yourself below the MVA ATC can turn you and if you cant accept it for terrain/obstacle you need to let them know. If ATC assigns a VFR a/c an altitude then they have to comply with the MVA. If you were IFR here, ya totally their bad, someone needs to lose ratings.

As far as the traffic they should have been issuing it ahead of time, most likely the first guy at 400' above you was a VFR not talking to anyone. If you were IFR then the other aircraft still isnt a bust if you were in class E, traffic should have been issued ahead of time but still no foul there (assuming here since you said it was slow). Not that its ok you wernt told but still. I would call the facility and at least talk with the sup about not being told twice and getting 2 RA's from it. They should have at least put your RA's in the daily log assuming you told them you were responding.

edit: also looks like your at Columbus, which is a training base for ATC. Also if you were withing the charlie they should be talking to all the traffic. Could be a new trainee with a new trainer who wasn't taking control or a newly rated controller with no one behind them. Either way call the facility and have a talk.

We were flying IFR at the time, and it was off station, we were with an approach controller in TN....and the first traffic was VFR, it was a CH-47

[ian]

Originally Posted by hship

isn't seperation 1000ft, 3 miles? it may have changed since i controlled last, but unless it went down, and i doubt it did, they busted seperation with the feet rule. 400ft is really close.....did you file a HATR? what did you do?

Just descended a couple hundred feet and told him descending for RA

[Alpha Lima]

Originally Posted by hship

isn't seperation 1000ft, 3 miles? it may have changed since i controlled last, but unless it went down, and i doubt it did, they busted seperation with the feet rule. 400ft is really close.....did you file a HATR? what did you do?

In class E there is no separation requirement for VFR aircraft. And you cant really separate from a un verified mode c, non radar identified aircraft. Albiet i wont put someone directly at it just because but i'm not going to make everyone avoid it completely since most likely the mode c is at least close.


Thats VFR of course, IFR-IFR is still at least 3/1000 unless your talking about visual separation.

[FM_Weasel]

Originally Posted by Alpha Lima

In class E there is no separation requirement for VFR aircraft. And you cant really separate from a un verified mode c, non radar identified aircraft. Albiet i wont put someone directly at it just because but i'm not going to make everyone avoid it completely since most likely the mode c is at least close.


Thats VFR of course, IFR-IFR is still at least 3/1000 unless your talking about visual separation.

Yeah, no VFR separation requirements within a Class D surface area either. I always exchange traffic of course, but it can make for some interesting passes over the field. Unnerves some people, but if a pilot tells me he sees the other guy, then why in the hell would he run into him?

Now, if it's a close call and the pilots are hell bent on not seeing one another (hey I admit, they can be hard to see from the tower sometimes too), then I will always issue an instruction to assist in diverging the aircraft from each other. But there are no established minima that must be met.