"Follow the Cessna, you're number 2 for the left runway"

[TXTBOOK]

A few weeks ago I got "Follow the Cessna ahead, you're number 2 for the east runway". I followed the Cessna in, and then I called about a mile away, "Is N1345 cleared for touch and go?" and I got "N1345, yes, you're number one for the runway". I did my touch and go and had no problems. Is this normal? I never got a clearance at all, other than her saying "yes" when I asked if I was cleared.

What say you?

[CN94559]

Originally Posted by TXTBOOK

A few weeks ago I got "Follow the Cessna ahead, you're number 2 for the east runway". I followed the Cessna in, and then I called about a mile away, "Is N1345 cleared for touch and go?" and I got "N1345, yes, you're number one for the runway". I did my touch and go and had no problems. Is this normal? I never got a clearance at all, other than her saying "yes" when I asked if I was cleared.

What say you?

At TKI we only have one runway, but I've heard similar before.

"Cessna N12345 you're number two behind the mooney for 17" a little later

"is 345 cleared touch n go?"

"345, yes, cleared touch n go"

They get lazy sometimes too. Why say runway 17 when you can just say yes.

[JulietBravo]

Every time I have gotten the "follow the plane in front of you" instruction, usually by the time I'm turning base - final and once the other plane is clear of the runway, they'll give me the cleared for the option and whatnot. If your on final and the other plane has taxied off of the runway and you have heard anything yet, you better be asking just like you did.

[TXTBOOK]

The thing that concerned me is that she never said the words "cleared touch and go". Even after I asked if we were clear, I was unsure. I wasn't comfortable with just "yes".

[Greg01]

If I ever get a response like that (number 1 for the runway vs cleared to land) I'll ask them to confirm I'm cleared to land.If they say the same thing I'll respond with, "Cleared to land 35, Nxxxxx." That way it's on the tapes.

Greg

[TXTBOOK]

Originally Posted by Greg01

If I ever get a response like that (number 1 for the runway vs cleared to land) I'll ask them to confirm I'm cleared to land.If they say the same thing I'll respond with, "Cleared to land 35, Nxxxxx." That way it's on the tapes.

Greg

That's a good idea. I'll do this if it ever happens to me. That way, I'm communicating that I think I'm cleared to land. If that isn't true, hopefully the controller will speak up, and it's on the tapes.

[Bernoulli Fan]

I've gotten the same thing for a bravo clearance as we're headed right toward it on vectors for a practice instrument approach:

Me: "Uh, verify we're cleared into the bravo...?"
ATC: "Affirmative."

Ok, then. I guess we don't need to hear the words "cleared into the bravo" as I was taught.

[CN94559]

Originally Posted by Bernoulli Fan

I've gotten the same thing for a bravo clearance as we're headed right toward it on vectors for a practice instrument approach:

Me: "Uh, verify we're cleared into the bravo...?"
ATC: "Affirmative."

Ok, then. I guess we don't need to hear the words "cleared into the bravo" as I was taught.

I've gotten that too... and it was on my second time going into the Bravo alone. It wasn't really a scary thing, more just like ok then, guess I don't need to hear those exact words.

[RobertB]

I would say you were not cleared for the touch and go and should have gone around or landed and departed at your own risk, but that is my take. You should have called the tower later on and asked to speak to a supervisor or someone with authority about the situation and the unresponsiveness/laziness of the local controller.

[clestudentpilot]

Originally Posted by CN94559

At TKI we only have one runway, but I've heard similar before.

"Cessna N12345 you're number two behind the mooney for 17" a little later

"is 345 cleared touch n go?"

"345, yes, cleared touch n go"

They get lazy sometimes too. Why say runway 17 when you can just say yes.

The runway number does not have to be stated in a landing, touch and go, stop and go, low approach, or option clearance, only in a takeoff clearance, when there is only one active runway, and it is advertised as the active runway. Obviously anything opposite direction, or if more than one runway is active, then the runway number has to be stated in the landing clearance, but it always has to be stated in a takeoff clearance.

[FM_Weasel]

Folks ask me all the time "verify N.... is cleared to land?" and my answer (if they are, of course) is ALWAYS

"Novermber ... Affirmative, Runway # cleared to land," even if I've already said it before.

I can't imagine anybody would think it's right to just say "affirmative" and leave it at that.

[Mike H]

Originally Posted by RobertB

I would say you were not cleared for the touch and go and should have gone around or landed and departed at your own risk, but that is my take. You should have called the tower later on and asked to speak to a supervisor or someone with authority about the situation and the unresponsiveness/laziness of the local controller.

Or the controller might hae been on the land line with another facility, or helping out with somebody else's emergency, or one being haned off to them. There's no way of knowing what's going on. Don't assume the worst motives on their part.

Best thing to do if there's any doubt what your clearance is is just ask for confirmation- or at least read back what you think it is and see if they correct you.

[FM_Weasel]

Originally Posted by Mike H

Best thing to do if there's any doubt what your clearance is is just ask for confirmation- or at least read back what you think it is and see if they correct you.

You mean the exact same thing the OP did? They asked for clarification and just got a "Yes."

I didn't know we could clear people onto the runway by saying just "Yes."

Unless you meant they should have asked for clarification a second time. Which I would agree is the only thing left to do at that point, but I don't think it excuses the controller omitting the proper phraseology entirely. And if they still failed to receive the words "Cleared <for the option/touch and go/to land>" then what else can they do? Specifically, a clearance onto the runway was never issued. At that point (when they've already asked once for clarification) I don't see how the pilot would have expected anything out of the controller but another half assed reply.

[Mike H]

Originally Posted by FM_Weasel

You mean the exact same thing the OP did? They asked for clarification and just got a "Yes."

I didn't know we could clear people onto the runway by saying just "Yes."

Unless you meant they should have asked for clarification a second time. Which I would agree is the only thing left to do at that point, but I don't think it excuses the controller omitting the proper phraseology entirely. And if they still failed to receive the words "Cleared <for the option/touch and go/to land>" then what else can they do? Specifically, a clearance onto the runway was never issued. At that point (when they've already asked once for clarification) I don't see how the pilot would have expected anything out of the controller but another half assed reply.

Tower: "Cessna 12345, you're #2 behind the Cessna on base"
345: "#2 behind the Cssna on base"
345: "Tower, Cessna 345, confirm we're cleared #2 for the option 35L"
Tower: "Uh, sure"
345:" Cleared for the option 35R, Cessna 345"
If I got a half assed response after that- or if they didn't catch the error, I'd definitely ask the tower to confirm the entire clearance and then call the supervisor after landing.

[TXTBOOK]

In hindsight I should have just gone around. I was early in my training and I was going around a couple times anyway.

I'm not really in a position to call the tower when I'm a student. My CFI didn't think it was a big deal anyway.

[ntbjounin]

I hear towers constantly asking pilots to readback hold short instructions. Today - "Cardinal 24M read back hold short instructions"
"Ok Roger"
"Cardinal 24M this airport requires that you read back the hold short instructions"
"Oh ok sorry".....
"Cardinal 24M please say the words"
"Ok hold short of 16"
"thank you"

I hear exhanges like this all the time. If the tower gets on pilots that much, it doesnt seem innappropriate to ask for the words YOU want to hear.
When it comes down to it... The tapes are the final say. So even if it annoys the tower, in the end, the FAA will not fault you for persisting to hear those words.

[Mike H]

Originally Posted by TXTBOOK

In hindsight I should have just gone around. I was early in my training and I was going around a couple times anyway.

I'm not really in a position to call the tower when I'm a student. My CFI didn't think it was a big deal anyway.

Student or not, it's YOUR butt in the airplane, not the controllers, so don't hesitate to get a clarification on a clearance or an instruction. You don't need to be a jerk about it and always say please & thank you, but make sure you understand what you're expected to do.

If you have a mid-air in the pattern, the controller is going to feel bad, probably even devastated, but you'll be feeling nothing- ever again.

[TXTBOOK]

Originally Posted by Mike H

Student or not, it's YOUR butt in the airplane, not the controllers, so don't hesitate to get a clarification on a clearance or an instruction. You don't need to be a jerk about it and always say please & thank you, but make sure you understand what you're expected to do.

If you have a mid-air in the pattern, the controller is going to feel bad, probably even devastated, but you'll be feeling nothing- ever again.

I just mean that I didn't know who was in the wrong at the time. If it happened to me again, I would definitely call. Especially since that would seem to be a pattern.

[RobertB]

Originally Posted by Mike H

Or the controller might hae been on the land line with another facility, or helping out with somebody else's emergency, or one being haned off to them. There's no way of knowing what's going on. Don't assume the worst motives on their part.

Best thing to do if there's any doubt what your clearance is is just ask for confirmation- or at least read back what you think it is and see if they correct you.

From the information provided and coming into this forum post as a controller, there was no excuse for the controller to not clear the aircraft in question to land/touch and go/etc. If he/she had time to say,"Follow the Cessna ahead, you're number 2 for the east runway," then they sure as hell had time to add cleared for whatever to the end of that. It appears to be pure, pure laziness on the controller's part.

If something else was that pressing, then the controller probably wouldn't even had said anything to the pilot in the first place until later on.

I TOTALLY disagree with your last statement. DON'T read back what you think it is, get a clearance first don't assume and here is why...

Cesnna 1: "ATC, two mile left base to east runway."
ATC: "Cessna 1, ATC, cleared, to land east runway."
....Cessna 1 reads it back or says the pain in the ass "roger" response...
Cessna 2: "ATC, five mile straight-in to east runway."
ATC: "Follow the Cessna ahead, you're number 2 for the east runway."
...Cessna 2 reads back "number 2 for the east runway, cleared to land"...
Has Cessna 2 been cleared to land? No

What happens if Cessna 1 breaks down on the runway and Cessna 2 doesn't see him and hits him/her in this scenario? Cessna 2 is at fault because they landed without a landing clearance...






http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publi...atc0310.html.1

[RobertB]

Originally Posted by TXTBOOK

In hindsight I should have just gone around. I was early in my training and I was going around a couple times anyway.

I'm not really in a position to call the tower when I'm a student. My CFI didn't think it was a big deal anyway.

Correct...

Your instructor should have called the tower and asked to speak with a supervisor so that a serious situation doesn't occur because of miscommunication and/or laziness.

[TXTBOOK]

Originally Posted by RobertB

Correct...

Your instructor should have called the tower and asked to speak with a supervisor so that a serious situation doesn't occur because of miscommunication and/or laziness.

How does one call the tower? Is that info in the AF/D? Can I get the number on airnav.com? Or do I have to ask over freq. for the number?

What happens when you call? Are you talking to a controller in between him giving his instructions? Is there someone up there that isn't actively controlling and is able to chat on the line?

[clestudentpilot]

Originally Posted by RobertB

....Cessna 1 reads it back or says the pain in the ass "roger" response...

It's amazing how many people don't know what "roger" means. So many pilots use it for "affirmative", or "wilco" (I know, very few pilots use "wilco"). When I hear just a "roger" response, all that tells me is that you heard me...well I am very happy to know that you are receiving my transmissions ok. No one is saying you have to instantly respond, since everyone knows that a pilot must fly the plane first, but if you have time to say "roger", you also have the extra half second to add in "cleared to land". OK, thread jack over

[RobertB]

Originally Posted by TXTBOOK

How does one call the tower? Is that info in the AF/D? Can I get the number on airnav.com? Or do I have to ask over freq. for the number?

What happens when you call? Are you talking to a controller in between him giving his instructions? Is there someone up there that isn't actively controlling and is able to chat on the line?

Airnav has the phone number for the facilities on it at least the number for my facility is accurate. Your flight school should have the number for sure. If they don't, call up clearance delivery, and ask for the tower number after you land.

At my facility, you will call the secretary's desk and either talk to her or leave a message. They can either transfer you or take your number for someone to call you back as soon as possible.

If someone calls direct to the tower, most likely not the number listed on airnav, and I am on clearance and there is no stand alone CIC, I will answer it and talk to whoever is calling. Most people do the same and if we are super busy, take a number and a name to call back later.

[RobertB]

Originally Posted by clestudentpilot

It's amazing how many people don't know what "roger" means. So many pilots use it for "affirmative", or "wilco" (I know, very few pilots use "wilco"). When I hear just a "roger" response, all that tells me is that you heard me...well I am very happy to know that you are receiving my transmissions ok. No one is saying you have to instantly respond, since everyone knows that a pilot must fly the plane first, but if you have time to say "roger", you also have the extra half second to add in "cleared to land". OK, thread jack over

Seriously, if a controller gives you instructions to keep you safe, the least you can do is read back what your were instructed to do so that everyone is on the same page. If everyone goes home safe, it was a great day. If everyone doesn't, then it was a terrible day.