D Class VFR Minimums for Closed Traffic

[mdspytko]

Hello, I would like some clarification on the VFR Minimums in D Class Airspace. I am familiar with the 3SM 1-5-2 rule however I need clarrification on the minimum 1000 ft. Ceilings for the purpose of Take-off's and Landings. Does that mean that if I want to do closed traffic in D Class and I have 1000 ft. ceilings that I am legal to maintain Clear of Clouds or do I still have to be 500 below? Thanks.

Mike

[bLizZuE]

500 Below.

[PA44-LUV]

Request Special VFR. Then it becomes clear of clouds if ATC gives it to you.

[minitour]

Originally Posted by PA44-LUV

Request Special VFR. Then it becomes clear of clouds if ATC gives it to you.

I asked for that once at OUN when the wx was reporting 1100...or something stupid close.

I got yelled at for not knowing what special VFR is or what it's purpose is by the controller.

-mini

[JustinA]

Hmmm. So what is the purpose then?

[ppragman]

I only ask for a Special when the visibility or the cx require it. To do otherwise, is kind of weird. Don't know anyone who asks for it when it wouldn't be required.

[Douglas]

Yeah field goes VFR at 1000 but you need to stay 500 below.

I once tried to get special VFR for the pattern at a Delta, the controller came back with, "OVC 1000 the field is VFR."

We gave up and parked it.

[swinte00]

In class D, I believe it's 500 below. Also:

7110.65 7-5-2a states:

SVFR flights may be approved only if arriving
and departing IFR aircraft are not delayed.

7110.65 7-5-2b states:

Inform an aircraft of the anticipated delay when
a SVFR clearance cannot be granted because of IFR
traffic. Do not issue an EFC or expected departure
time.

Controller should have given you a reason and should have known the limitations of SVFR.

[boondr]

Originally Posted by swinte00

In class D, I believe it's 500 below. Also:

7110.65 7-5-2a states:



7110.65 7-5-2b states:



Controller should have given you a reason and should have known the limitations of SVFR.

It's VFR, that's the reason. Special VFR is only if the weather is less than basic VFR minima. Therefore the controller not giving a special VFR is because Special VFR doesn't exist in VFR conditions.

[Old Pete]

Originally Posted by boondr

It's VFR, that's the reason. Special VFR is only if the weather is less than basic VFR minima. Therefore the controller not giving a special VFR is because Special VFR doesn't exist in VFR conditions.

7111.65s 7-5-1

b. SVFR operations may be authorized for aircraft
operating in or transiting a Class B, Class C, Class D,
or Class E surface area when the primary airport is
reporting VFR but the pilot advises that basic VFR
cannot be maintained.
NOTEThe
basic requirements for issuance of a SVFR clearance
in subpara a apply with the obvious exception that weather
conditions at the controlling airport are not required to be
less than basic VFR minima.

I'm not a controller, but it seems pretty clear that a special VFR clearance may be issued when the weather is reported to be above basic VFR.

[minitour]

Originally Posted by Old Pete

I'm not a controller, but it seems pretty clear that a special VFR clearance may be issued when the weather is reported to be above basic VFR.

I thought the same thing.

Originally Posted by swinte00

Controller should have given you a reason and should have known the limitations of SVFR.

The reason I got was that I need to go crack open the AIM with my instructor. We did. Couldn't find any reason why we would be denied a SVFR for the pattern work other than the controller was just a male genitalia. Turned out that was the case.

-mini

[Old Pete]

Originally Posted by ppragman

I only ask for a Special when the visibility or the cx require it. To do otherwise, is kind of weird. Don't know anyone who asks for it when it wouldn't be required.

It would be required. If you are over a congested area (91.119), you would have to remain at least 1000 agl. If the bases of the clouds were any lower than 1500 you could not comply with VFR cloud clearance regulations. 500 below class D.

[turbine time]

I took off in class D vfr, went out to the practice area and when I called App. to go back they said sorry the feild is IFR, I then said the magic words, Cessna 1234 request special VFR and was cleared in. Special VFR is only approved if IFR conditions exist.

[swinte00]

Originally Posted by turbine time

I took off in class D vfr, went out to the practice area and when I called App. to go back they said sorry the feild is IFR, I then said the magic words, Cessna 1234 request special VFR and was cleared in. Special VFR is only approved if IFR conditions exist.

Or when a pilot is unable to maintain VFR and requests SVFR. Check the .65

[subpilot]

I would not expect SVFR to do pattern work but only to arrive or depart. I could be wrong but doesn't SVFR keep all other SVFR/IFR traffic from entering the surface area while you are operating in it just as if you were on an IFR approach/departure?

[swinte00]

Originally Posted by subpilot

I would not expect SVFR to do pattern work but only to arrive or depart. I could be wrong but doesn't SVFR keep all other SVFR/IFR traffic from entering the surface area while you are operating in it just as if you were on an IFR approach/departure?

Yes, but theoretically if there is no other traffic, the controller could approve SVFR for pattern work and then cancel the SVFR clearance if an IFR aircraft pops up for arrival/departure.

Not saying it's likely, but however, it is possible.

[caliginousface]

Originally Posted by Old Pete

It would be required. If you are over a congested area (91.119), you would have to remain at least 1000 agl. If the bases of the clouds were any lower than 1500 you could not comply with VFR cloud clearance regulations. 500 below class D.

So when I'm on final and less than 500ft above houses and a large mall I am in violation of 91.119?

A debate about this with another member here resulted in determining that being in the traffic pattern is considered "in takeoff and landing phase" of flight. Just curious if you saw it that way as well.

[drunkenbeagle]

Originally Posted by caliginousface

So when I'm on final and less than 500ft above houses and a large mall I am in violation of 91.119?

A debate about this with another member here resulted in determining that being in the traffic pattern is considered "in takeoff and landing phase" of flight. Just curious if you saw it that way as well.

It would have to be - an 800' TPA over a congested area obviously would conflict as well.

[mdspytko]

Thanks to everyone who responded. It seems that the general concensus is that you have to be 500 below (Unless SVFR). I kind of thought of the pattern work as also "Except for Take-off or Landing..." Thanks again.

[clestudentpilot]

I'll just add a little fuel to the fire...traffic pattern elevations are not regulatory, only the direction of the turns are regulatory, and if you are at a towered field, they can have you do the opposite anyway. So "theoretically" you could be VFR with 1000' ceiling, and still comply with 500' below by flying your pattern at 500' AGL. I'm not advocating for it, saying it's smart, or whatever, so all of you salivating to rip me, keep it in your pants, I'm just stating a fact.

Also, subpilot, I have had on several occasions, someone doing pattern work SVFR, and we just give them the airspace, that is until there is an IFR inbound, then we have to tell them pack it in or just hold on the ground for a few minutes, and once the IFR is on the ground, we can give the SVFR the airspace back so they can do pattern work.

[vikingair]

Originally Posted by clestudentpilot

I'll just add a little fuel to the fire...traffic pattern elevations are not regulatory, only the direction of the turns are regulatory,

What reg states direction of turns?

[clestudentpilot]

Originally Posted by vikingair

What reg states direction of turns?

Well, I don't know, I could have sworn that it was regulatory that you have to follow segmented circle direction of turn, but I cannot find it in the regs, so maybe I'm wrong on that point.

Also, I did just find in the AIM, section 4-3-3, it states "Traffic pattern altitudes should be maintained unless otherwise required by the applicable distance from cloud criteria." I hadn't even realized when I typed what I did last night that the AIM does pretty much say it is OK to deviate from TPA if necessary to be 500' below, so I guess with the ceiling 1000', a pilot can even have AIM backup to do pattern work, and be legal, and not need SVFR (btw, I do agree with others, how can you get special VFR, if conditions are VFR, it's kind of contradictory). FAR 1.1 states "Special VFR conditions means meteorological conditions that are less than those required for basic VFR flight in controlled airspace and in which some aircraft are permitted flight under visual flight rules." That states right there, you can't have SVFR, if you have VFR to begin with.

[Old Pete]

Originally Posted by vikingair

What reg states direction of turns?

§ 91.126 Operating on or in the vicinity of an airport in Class G airspace.

(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized or required, each person operating an aircraft on or in the vicinity of an airport in a Class G airspace area must comply with the requirements of this section.
(b) Direction of turns. When approaching to land at an airport without an operating control tower in Class G airspace—
(1) Each pilot of an airplane must make all turns of that airplane to the left unless the airport displays approved light signals or visual markings indicating that turns should be made to the right, in which case the pilot must make all turns to the right; and

[ghogue]

Originally Posted by vikingair

What reg states direction of turns?

91.126

edit: a bit late

[ghogue]

Originally Posted by clestudentpilot

That states right there, you can't have SVFR, if you have VFR to begin with.

7110.65
Section 5. Special VFR (SVFR) 7-5-1. AUTHORIZATION

b. SVFR operations may be authorized for aircraft operating in or transiting a Class B, Class C, Class D, or Class E surface area when the primary airport is reporting VFR but the pilot advises that basic VFR cannot be maintained.