D Class VFR Minimums for Closed Traffic

[drunkenbeagle]

Perhaps a stupid question, but how can you tell how far away from a clould you are?

The only reliable way I have found is flying through it, or just next to it, and then descending 500'. Looking up and seeing a cloud, I can't really tell if it is 500' or 1500' above. Does everyone know something I don't?

[Old Pete]

Originally Posted by caliginousface

So when I'm on final and less than 500ft above houses and a large mall I am in violation of 91.119?

Well that's a good question. The reg. says "Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft below the following altitudes:"

If you were on a 5mi final and less than 500ft I would say yes. If you were less than a mi out I would say of course not.

A debate about this with another member here resulted in determining that being in the traffic pattern is considered "in takeoff and landing phase" of flight. Just curious if you saw it that way as well.

I don't remember that thread, if you have a link to it I would be interested.
I think the FAA expects you to fly the traffic pattern at TPA, but I could be convinced otherwise, if I had more information showing the opposite.

[Matt13C]

Ive flown closed traffic in a delta under SVFR with clouds at 1400, TPA 1200. Controller had no problem with it. It was a good learning experience as a student.

[clestudentpilot]

Originally Posted by ghogue

7110.65
Section 5. Special VFR (SVFR) 7-5-1. AUTHORIZATION

b. SVFR operations may be authorized for aircraft operating in or transiting a Class B, Class C, Class D, or Class E surface area when the primary airport is reporting VFR but the pilot advises that basic VFR cannot be maintained.

Sorry, I should have expanded what I meant by that. The controller side of me knows that, but I was referring to the OP's questions, and operating SVFR in the pattern, which has (ok I know within half a mile of the runway, blah, blah, blah, but the traffic pattern) the same weather as the airport. I know a few miles away, clouds can be different. Assuming everything is done properly though, you wouldn't have SVFR in the pattern if the airport is VFR. IF the airport goes below VFR, a SPECI would be issued. I know there are still some manual stations where the controllers don't know the exact base of the clouds, and can't tell whether they are at 900' or 1000', but most controlled fields now have automated weather, meaning the SPECI should be issued at the proper times.

Again, though, I did know that, I was more just referring to pattern work, but I should have said that. And in reality, what I said is correct. I quoted the reg, and the reg said if it is VFR, it didn't say anything about what the nearest airport reports weather, so while I do see what you mean, there is still nothing wrong with the statement that if the weather is VFR, you can't have SVFR.

[ghogue]

Originally Posted by clestudentpilot

Again, though, I did know that, I was more just referring to pattern work, but I should have said that. And in reality, what I said is correct. I quoted the reg, and the reg said if it is VFR, it didn't say anything about what the nearest airport reports weather, so while I do see what you mean, there is still nothing wrong with the statement that if the weather is VFR, you can't have SVFR.

I'm not exactly sure what you're saying about pattern work, but it sounds like you're saying SVFR is not appropriate for such. If I'm incorrect, accept my apology. If I am correct then please explain this from 7110.65S.

7-5-5. LOCAL OPERATIONS
a. Authorize local SVFR operations for a specified period (series of landings and takeoffs, etc.) upon request if the aircraft can be recalled when traffic or weather conditions require. Where warranted, LOAs may be consummated.

My intention is not to be argumentative, just accuracy.

gary

[clestudentpilot]

Trust me, I am generally the one that people think is being argumentative, when that is not the case, haha, so no biggie. No that is not what I meant. I have had on several occasions given SVFR clearances for someone just doing touch and goes, or whatever (that is what I meant by pattern work, sorry, I should have said it differently). When I said I was specifically referring to pattern work, or landing practice, all I meant was that that is a case where a the airport weather is all you really care about. I do realize that it is theoretically possible for the airport to be VFR, but there to be a VFR inbound that can't get into the airspace because it is IFR at their specific location. I also do apologize, looking back on what I said, I may have come off cocky or arrogant, and that was not my intention, I was just attempting to back up what I had said in a previous reply a day or two ago.

[nosehair]

Originally Posted by vikingair

What reg states direction of turns?

Have we come to this?

Not knowing that all turns are to the left when approaching a non-towered field is (supposed to be) an all common knowledge procedure that all pilots know just like all car drivers in traffic know that you stop at a stop sign.

I make this point because I have noticed in the past few recent years that there are newly-trained pilots (and instructors!) who have never operated into a non-towered airport.

And they were like the reverse of how it was many many years ago when the no-tower airport pilot is trying to learn to talk and listen and fly at the same time. Well, these new pilots are all lost and unsure of what to do without tower instructions. It's like they can't look and think and fly at the same time.

Looking like non-towered operations should be a required part of training certification.

[ghogue]

Originally Posted by clestudentpilot

Trust me, I am generally the one that people think is being argumentative, when that is not the case, haha, so no biggie. No that is not what I meant. I have had on several occasions given SVFR clearances for someone just doing touch and goes, or whatever (that is what I meant by pattern work, sorry, I should have said it differently). When I said I was specifically referring to pattern work, or landing practice, all I meant was that that is a case where a the airport weather is all you really care about. I do realize that it is theoretically possible for the airport to be VFR, but there to be a VFR inbound that can't get into the airspace because it is IFR at their specific location. I also do apologize, looking back on what I said, I may have come off cocky or arrogant, and that was not my intention, I was just attempting to back up what I had said in a previous reply a day or two ago.

I wasn't implying that I thought you were being argumentative. I just wanted you to know that my answer to you was not meant to be so. It's easy to say and mean one thing and, yet, have it taken differently.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by nosehair

Have we come to this?

Not knowing that all turns are to the left when approaching a non-towered field is (supposed to be) an all common knowledge procedure that all pilots know just like all car drivers in traffic know that you stop at a stop sign.

I make this point because I have noticed in the past few recent years that there are newly-trained pilots (and instructors!) who have never operated into a non-towered airport.

And they were like the reverse of how it was many many years ago when the no-tower airport pilot is trying to learn to talk and listen and fly at the same time. Well, these new pilots are all lost and unsure of what to do without tower instructions. It's like they can't look and think and fly at the same time.

Looking like non-towered operations should be a required part of training certification.

But the G1000 display didn't tell me I had to make left turns normally in the pattern. How was I supposed to know?

[drunkenbeagle]

Originally Posted by MikeD

But the G1000 display didn't tell me I had to make left turns normally in the pattern. How was I supposed to know?

No magenta line!

[vikingair]

Originally Posted by nosehair

Have we come to this?

Not knowing that all turns are to the left when approaching a non-towered field is (supposed to be) an all common knowledge procedure that all pilots know just like all car drivers in traffic know that you stop at a stop sign.

I make this point because I have noticed in the past few recent years that there are newly-trained pilots (and instructors!) who have never operated into a non-towered airport.

And they were like the reverse of how it was many many years ago when the no-tower airport pilot is trying to learn to talk and listen and fly at the same time. Well, these new pilots are all lost and unsure of what to do without tower instructions. It's like they can't look and think and fly at the same time.

Looking like non-towered operations should be a required part of training certification.

Sorry I asked a question without clarifying for the monkey gallery know-it-all that I thought he was talking about traffic patterns at towered airports/controlled airspace with regards to the regs since we are talking SVFR and to my knowledge that doesn't exist at uncontrolled fields.

I jumped in a little too soon not thinking about G..but everyday I'm in and out of non towered APs. 10 years flying, literally 100's of different fields..I'm not the idiot crossing over the airport at TPA, no SA, barely a radio call or coming in the wrong way causing heartburn. I agree they should teach it...I did for 1300 hrs. Of course I also teach my students not to jump to conclusions and act like a REDACTED in the air or on the ground.

And really..ALL of the new pilots are lost without tower instructions?

[ppragman]

Originally Posted by drunkenbeagle

Perhaps a stupid question, but how can you tell how far away from a clould you are?

The only reliable way I have found is flying through it, or just next to it, and then descending 500'. Looking up and seeing a cloud, I can't really tell if it is 500' or 1500' above. Does everyone know something I don't?

I don't know about you but I'm always (100%) of the time 1000' above the clouds, 500' below the clouds or 2000' horizontally in class D. 100% of the time.

Oh, and if it looked like I wasn't, well, that wasn't a cloud, it was just a region or reduced visibility, or there was a cloud between us

[ppragman]

THIS IS STRICTLY OPINION:

Ohh, and to add on, I tend to think that the arbitrary Cx and vis requirements for the different classes of airspace are antiquated. That's not to say that I don't follow them, however, if it were me making the rules there'd be some changes. It'd be 3 miles and Clear of clouds any time you're radar contact, or below the minimum authorized IFR altitude within 5 miles, and the rest of the time it'd be 5-111. But I'd also define "clouds" which the feds don't really do. I'd say that a cloud consists of any water vapor induced reduction in visibility not to include rain or virga, snow etc. that extends more than 1/2 a mile in any direction.

Personally, I think its somewhat ridiculous that you have to drive around a puffy white spot in front of you to clear it by 2000' but you can cruise along on the airway at 500' below the cloud deck where there could be numerous IFR planes that your not talking to. Just my $.02

[nosehair]

Originally Posted by clestudentpilot

you could be VFR with 1000' ceiling, and still comply with 500' below by flying your pattern at 500' AGL. I'm not advocating for it, saying it's smart, or whatever,

I am advocating it. It is good training. Get used to 500' patterns and you won't have any difficulty later doing an IFR circling approach. Also, it is not uncommon to have some small clouds at normal pattern altitude even when it is "VFR", so you should adjust your altitude to avoid them. The point that started this thread is the wide-spread mis-conception that you "must" remain at pattern altitude.