Landing without a Landing Clearance

[3enginejock]

I got into this discussion with one of my Captains today.

Lets say your on short final and the tower frequency is extremely busy. You cant get word in and you have not recieved a clearance to land.

What do you do? Do you go around or land?

I dont have a whole lot of experience so I answered that I would probably go around just be on the safe side.

He told me I was wrong. Going around would probably mess up the ATC flow of the airport, especially on a busy day. I understand where he is coming from but is it not illegal to land without a clearance at a controlled airport?

[subpilot]

The textbook answer is to go-around. You can't get in trouble for doing this. OTOH, if ATC knew you were on approach and expect you to land but had simply forgotten to give you the clearance then most likely nothing would be said about it. The problem is technically it is a violation and all it takes is one ATC supervisor or FAA inspector watching from a jumpseat of another aircraft to ruin your day.

[3enginejock]

That is pretty much the way I explained my position to him. A go around might piss off a few controllers but it covers your ass.

Can someone quote me a reg on this, Ive searched a bit and have not found anything.

[Brian Z]

I say go around. You may mess up flow with the go around, but it is not their certs that are on the line.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by Brian Z

I say go around. You may mess up flow with the go around, but it is not their certs that are on the line.

There's no major flow to mess up actually......at least one that can't be ironed out. Even with planes coming one behind the other, there's no reason they can't take you around the pattern to land again. It's generally never THAT congested that there's zero wiggle room. Go around is the thing to do with no landing clnc.

[E_Dawg]

No way would I land. You can't risk your safety and career over some controller's stress level (who apparently couldn't be bothered prior.) I have heard of multiple controllers from various large airports hinting 'theres always a green light'... well these days from what I have heard, it's an automatic RUNWAY INCURSION as per the FAA and it's gonna fall squarely on the pic's shoulders. No thank you. Stories like this make me glad I upgraded... that's a tough spot for an FO if the CA wants to land anyways; not a lot of time for the FO to do much of anything.

[Brian Z]

Originally Posted by E_Dawg

not a lot of time for the FO to do much of anything.

besides getting it on the CVR that there is not a landing clearance in place.

[minitour]

How short final?

Flash an ident at 'em and then go around if they still ignore ya. Couldn't get in a word to center the other night and must have been blocked 6 times in a row. Finally I pressed the flashy button and let them call me. Worked like a charm.

-mini

[genot]

I'm an approach guy, not a tower guy, but I'd go around. The way I see it is if I'm THAT busy, I'm not clearing anyone for takeoff and calming things down a bit. If you go around, as the departure guy I'm going to notice if some mysterious tag floats off the runway on my scope. Generally speaking, if local is that busy, they're jammed solid with arrivals and cant depart. That means the person who is going to be most concerned with you in the TRACON is most likely the least busy person in the radar room (depending on airspace structure). Going along with that, chances are you aren't going to be low overflying an airplane cleared for takeoff.

To me its the same concept as if I'm working satellite sectors and getting crushed. I'm not releasing anyone from one of my class Ds or giving a clearance to anyone on the ground and who knows maybe center is issuing holds until it either settles down or I get some sectors relieved from me. If I allow it to get to that point, blame should be hung on me if I get too busy, don't ask for help and my last instructions cause a problem. On the other hand if (again as an approach guy) you decide to clear yourself for the visual because the frequencies are jammed and conflict with another airplane, blame would just as easily be placed on you.

[genot]

And I forgot ask. And FYI a Controller-Pilot forum for controllers to ask pilots would be a great addition. I've had several instances, say calling traffic on a 1200 code, usually when they appear to be holding over a fix for IFR training, where the 1200 code has idented right after I call traffic. There have actually been several instances thinking about it where someone has idented a little bit before keying up and questioning something. I've never heard a controller say oh they're identing because they were monitoring and heard you, or had a question about routing. I fly and no pilot has ever mentioned that to me. I'm wondering if what Minitour is talking about is common and we just don't know about it.

[PeterPilot]

Originally Posted by Brian Z

besides getting it on the CVR that there is not a landing clearance in place.

However, as far as an enforcement goes, the FAA cannot use a CVR. The only use of a CVR is for accident investigation, so it would still be a he said / she said issue after the fact as far as an enforcement goes.

To the original question, unless there is some other issue in the mix (like an engine fire) go around.

[sdfcvoh]

Originally Posted by 3enginejock

...and you have not recieved a clearance to land.

No Clearance=No Land. There can be no other discussion. It is a big "period."

[milleR]

Originally Posted by genot

And I forgot ask. And FYI a Controller-Pilot forum for controllers to ask pilots would be a great addition. I've had several instances, say calling traffic on a 1200 code, usually when they appear to be holding over a fix for IFR training, where the 1200 code has idented right after I call traffic. There have actually been several instances thinking about it where someone has idented a little bit before keying up and questioning something. I've never heard a controller say oh they're identing because they were monitoring and heard you, or had a question about routing. I fly and no pilot has ever mentioned that to me. I'm wondering if what Minitour is talking about is common and we just don't know about it.

I think mini is referring to times when we as pilots need something, be it a deviation for weather, a clarification of a clearance or some other pertinent bit of information that's hard to interject over a busy frequency. In that instance we want to make ourselves stand out on your screen, and an ident (we think) raises a flag to tracon that we want something. It's not something that's written anywhere that I know of, just kind of a common sense application. I don't know about the examples you gave and am just speaking about an IFR environment.

[minitour]

Originally Posted by genot

I'm wondering if what Minitour is talking about is common and we just don't know about it.

I don't think so and I certainly don't teach students to do it! But I also wasn't going to tool along through 5 sectors at 24 when I needed to get AT LEAST into the mid 30s to be able to make the destination just because I couldn't get in a word edgewise.

Worked great too. "N123, Center thanks I see ya there, climb and maintain whatever it was".

I figured it was do that with Jax center or tell NY Approach we were minimum fuel. Pick your poison. It was probably the best option and probably prevented a diversion and/or fuel emergency.

Same at a towered field (if they had radar), *flash* "N123 podunk tower runway 23L cleared to land". If that doesn't work, max power flaps gear flaps and either follow the missed approach for the runway or make a vfr pattern until you can tell someone wtf you're doin. Of course, you could always try another frequency on another radio if it's that busy...or even guard if you HAD to get down.

Just don't land (91.3 is the exception) without a clearance.

-mini

[///AMG]

Here's a side question from the last response....

I've never had to actually declare min fuel, but I was under the impression that it really is only advisory in nature to ATC....as in a busy approach controller will probably not be able to help you out much until you actually utter the "E" word. Is this true?

[cmill]

A question kind of related to this one, I've once had a tower controller tell me on a dive bomb short approach "do not execute a go-around." I didn't plan on it, but i got to thinking, if I'm gonna over-shoot the runway, wtf am i supposed to do?

I'm sure it really wasn't a command as much as him implying that i had better make the run way, because if i don't its gonna be a major PITA, and i could see why. I was landing 13R at DFW, and a go around would put me right over the departure ends of all 18's and 17's.

Just wondering if anyone else had heard an instruction like that.

[Sunburn]

Originally Posted by ///AMG

Here's a side question from the last response....

I've never had to actually declare min fuel, but I was under the impression that it really is only advisory in nature to ATC....as in a busy approach controller will probably not be able to help you out much until you actually utter the "E" word. Is this true?

Min Fuel tells us controllers that you, the pilot, cannot accept an undue delay. It is basically an urgency issue, there my be nothing a busy approach or center can do for you, but whatever they do do, cannot be undue. If that makes any sense.

[Kingairer]

Originally Posted by ///AMG

Here's a side question from the last response....

I've never had to actually declare min fuel, but I was under the impression that it really is only advisory in nature to ATC....as in a busy approach controller will probably not be able to help you out much until you actually utter the "E" word. Is this true?

Most of the time when you have to declare min fuel its b/c youve had some un-expected holding, or maybe holding longer then expected, or something like that...something which may make alot of airplanes in the same boat as you..so it goes like this...
"We are declaring minfuel"
"ok good, let me know if you get to Emergency fuel".

[minitour]

Originally Posted by Sunburn

Min Fuel tells us controllers that you, the pilot, cannot accept an undue delay. It is basically an urgency issue, there my be nothing a busy approach or center can do for you, but whatever they do do, cannot be undue. If that makes any sense.

Bingo.

Originally Posted by Kingairer

Most of the time when you have to declare min fuel its b/c youve had some un-expected holding, or maybe holding longer then expected, or something like that...something which may make alot of airplanes in the same boat as you..so it goes like this...
"We are declaring minfuel"
"ok good, let me know if you get to Emergency fuel".

Bingo x2

I declared min fuel one night after two misses at the destination followed by a miss at the alternate and a 40 knot headwind to my "2nd alternate". They just asked me to advise them when it got to emergency fuel.

Also had to declare minimum fuel once when the destination was at mins and they were holding everyone trying to get in (non-towered so one in one out). Same dealio.

If tower ever ever told me not to execute a go around, I think I'd be pretty pissed. I know things are always great when you're sippin coffee in the cab, but in the plane when SHTF if I need to go around...I do.

-mini

[hawkesaurus]

Originally Posted by cmill

A question kind of related to this one, I've once had a tower controller tell me on a dive bomb short approach "do not execute a go-around." I didn't plan on it, but i got to thinking, if I'm gonna over-shoot the runway, wtf am i supposed to do?

I'm sure it really wasn't a command as much as him implying that i had better make the run way, because if i don't its gonna be a major PITA, and i could see why. I was landing 13R at DFW, and a go around would put me right over the departure ends of all 18's and 17's.

Just wondering if anyone else had heard an instruction like that.

Don't forget, while ATC does do a great job most of the time, they are there for you, not the other way around. They cannot tell you to do anything with your aircraft that you don't want to do. Including a go-around. As PIC, you are ultimately responsible for anything that happens as a result of your aircraft.

This being said, I do always try to help ATC as much I can with whatever they might need, as some will try to help us. It's not an "us vs. them" scenario. We're all trying to get home at the end of the day.

But, if you can't do it, you can't do it. Just let them know.

[cmill]

Originally Posted by hawkesaurus

Don't forget, while ATC does do a great job most of the time, they are there for you, not the other way around. They cannot tell you to do anything with your aircraft that you don't want to do. Including a go-around. As PIC, you are ultimately responsible for anything that happens as a result of your aircraft.

This being said, I do always try to help ATC as much I can with whatever they might need, as some will try to help us. It's not an "us vs. them" scenario. We're all trying to get home at the end of the day.

But, if you can't do it, you can't do it. Just let them know.

I just thought it was odd, as ive never heard anything like that before, and i always get pretty good service at DFW.

[Binger]

As far as the first question about landing without a clearance, I agree with most everybody else that you shouldn't do it. I work tower and the only time I was so busy I couldn't give a landing clearance was because I was dealing with an emergency with an F16 and given how fast they move, that was the #1 priority. The pilot on final went around and I appologized and he just had to spin around the pattern once. I think most pilots will understand in a situation like that. I don't work a busy airport though, so I'm sure it's different there.

As far as the minimum fuel situation, I work approach as well, and when I hear "Minimum Fuel" I get that pilot down regardless of what else is going on. I don't want to ever hear "emergency fuel".

[kalaitzidisg]

Originally Posted by 3enginejock

I got into this discussion with one of my Captains today.

Lets say your on short final and the tower frequency is extremely busy. You cant get word in and you have not recieved a clearance to land.

What do you do? Do you go around or land?

I dont have a whole lot of experience so I answered that I would probably go around just be on the safe side.

He told me I was wrong. Going around would probably mess up the ATC flow of the airport, especially on a busy day. I understand where he is coming from but is it not illegal to land without a clearance at a controlled airport?

[kalaitzidisg]

I n any case you haven't the landing clearanse from the tower the goarround must be done after passing the MAP .
If you land ,you violate the law.

[BajtheJino]

Originally Posted by kalaitzidisg

I n any case you haven't the landing clearanse from the tower the goarround must be done after passing the MAP .

I didn't know that. I thought I could float down the runway a foot off the pavement and as long as I don't touch down I'm okay.
Splitting hairs.