Landing without a Landing Clearance

[DPApilot]

Originally Posted by bajthejino

i didn't know that. I thought i could float down the runway a foot off the pavement and as long as i don't touch down i'm okay.
Splitting hairs.

no 111!!!!one!!!11!

You need a clearanse or else you must goarround!!!111!1!one!1111!

[Rosstafari]

Originally Posted by BajtheJino

I didn't know that. I thought I could float down the runway a foot off the pavement and as long as I don't touch down I'm okay.
Splitting hairs.

Heh. You tease, you.

[cmill]

Originally Posted by DPApilot

no 111!!!!one!!!11!

You need a clearanse or else you must goarround!!!111!1!one!1111!

Yes, but go around when?

Not sayin i would try to pull this at DFW, but i was at a class D field with a controller id met personally and knew pretty well. There was a 172 that was still rollin as I was crossing the numbers, controller called a GA as I passed over the thousand footers. He never explicitly gave me a landing clearance, but I had a hunch what his intentions where when he told me "I'll call go around if needed."

Now at a large airport, or somewhere i didnt fly into twice a day, it would be a whole different story. ATC pretty much has the final authority if your gonna get a hosing over something, and beleive it or not, not all of them are out there to hang you.

[DPApilot]

Originally Posted by cmill

Yes, but go around when?

Not sayin i would try to pull this at DFW, but i was at a class D field with a controller id met personally and knew pretty well. There was a 172 that was still rollin as I was crossing the numbers, controller called a GA as I passed over the thousand footers. He never explicitly gave me a landing clearance, but I had a hunch what his intentions where when he told me "I'll call go around if needed."

Now at a large airport, or somewhere i didnt fly into twice a day, it would be a whole different story. ATC pretty much has the final authority if your gonna get a hosing over something, and beleive it or not, not all of them are out there to hang you.

I know man, I fully agree with you, I was just poking fun of this post.

Originally Posted by kalaitzidisg

I n any case you haven't the landing clearanse from the tower the goarround must be done after passing the MAP .
If you land ,you violate the law.

[SoCalAprch]

Originally Posted by DPApilot

I know man, I fully agree with you, I was just poking fun of this post.

HAHAHA That's mature...

[///AMG]

Somewhat related, this reminded me of the other day when I did a section break at homefield, with me as dash 2, and as we were climbing out off the T & G I got the sinking feeling that I had heard lead's clearance and had forgotten to get my own (clearance to land/option). We had been doing a lot of civilian field ops where they normally clear dash one for the whole section, so I felt like I had forgotten out of recent habit. Checked the HUD video after the flight and was pleased to hear that I had in fact gotten clearance. Yay

[cmill]

Originally Posted by ///AMG

Somewhat related, this reminded me of the other day when I did a section break at homefield, with me as dash 2, and as we were climbing out off the T & G I got the sinking feeling that I had heard lead's clearance and had forgotten to get my own (clearance to land/option). We had been doing a lot of civilian field ops where they normally clear dash one for the whole section, so I felt like I had forgotten out of recent habit. Checked the HUD video after the flight and was pleased to hear that I had in fact gotten clearance. Yay

Wish i had a HUD video to check. For most of us, if we think we didnt get a clearance, all we can do is taxi in and hope to not get a phone number, then even if we dont, we still wonder if we should send in a NASA form, if it would even do any good, haha.

[///AMG]

I guess on the flip side, tower probably would have said something eventually had you not talked to them...at least on rollout. Still doesn't save that "damn I'm an idiot" feeling

[ian]

Originally Posted by ///AMG

Here's a side question from the last response....

I've never had to actually declare min fuel, but I was under the impression that it really is only advisory in nature to ATC....as in a busy approach controller will probably not be able to help you out much until you actually utter the "E" word. Is this true?

I had to declare min fuel once in the T-6

[bunk22]

Originally Posted by ///AMG

Here's a side question from the last response....

I've never had to actually declare min fuel, but I was under the impression that it really is only advisory in nature to ATC....as in a busy approach controller will probably not be able to help you out much until you actually utter the "E" word. Is this true?

I had to declare min fuel once and ATC took their sweet time vectoring me for the approach. Once my low fuel light came on, I declared the emergency and of course, I was priority.

On a sidenote, being you will be a tailhooker, there will be a day during blue water ops in which you will be min fuel....and less. Maybe at night, try to hit the tanker, no go, need the barricade. Hopefully not but you'll see In 99, we were still orbiting in the overhead with low fuel lights...and as you know, can't eject or airborne refuel with the thunder pig.

[ATPtoATC]

Landing without a clearance on purpose is idiotic. Period. I don't care you're married to the controller's daughter and have dinner with him every saturday night. I don't care if it's going to mess up flow.

The landing clearance is not a "mother may i" situation. A controller doesn't give you clearance to land based on whether or not he feels like it, its based on whether or not its SAFE to land. No pilot has any idea if on a crowded freq whether the controller forgot about you or is waiting on the clearance for a slow moving aircraft to cross downfield.

There's a reason we have controllers and if no clearance is issued, there is no assurance that the plane you think is holding short downfield is, in fact, holding short. There is a reason for procedures. It only takes one pilot to do something unexpected like "helping out the controller" by landing without a clearance to kill hundreds of people.

"Well, I thought I was helping him out" isn't going to keep you or your certificates safe. I'll help a controller out to the fullest extent I can within the regs, but there is no way to know if I'm helping him out unless he asks me for a favor.

[polo708]

The controller should have been proactive and made sure you had a landing clearance. Your go-around should always be protected and will always be there should you need it for any reason.

If you dont have a clearance to land then dont land... start a climbout prior to the threshold. You will be sequenced again to land... 10 minutes later with your pilots license, haha.

[triple7]

This happened to me in EWR one night. On final we check in. Told to continue. "500 ft" "checks on glide"...ok we cleared to land?....wait no we are not. "200" still cant get a word in. Tower guy is slammed with all the evening heavy departures and longwinded readbacks by other aircraft. So, 100 feet and we are outta there. I had the departing BA 777 insight and made a turn to parallel his DP course(190 hdg). The controller freaked then asked the reason for the go around. We responded..."no landing clearance". Silence.......so yeah we were in the right. But had we landed no one would've probably said a thing since he was oblivious to the fact he never cleared us. Regardless the go around is the textbook answer since we were never really sure why he told us to continue. Could've been an ops vehicle, another aircraft disabled....who knows.

[Socal321]

No clearance landings happen all the time. ATC/Pilots forget. They should make the rules so that you're only cleared to land when you're number1 with a clear runway like in Europe.

[cmill]

Originally Posted by ATPtoATC

Landing without a clearance on purpose is idiotic. Period. I don't care you're married to the controller's daughter and have dinner with him every saturday night. I don't care if it's going to mess up flow.

The landing clearance is not a "mother may i" situation. A controller doesn't give you clearance to land based on whether or not he feels like it, its based on whether or not its SAFE to land. No pilot has any idea if on a crowded freq whether the controller forgot about you or is waiting on the clearance for a slow moving aircraft to cross downfield.

There's a reason we have controllers and if no clearance is issued, there is no assurance that the plane you think is holding short downfield is, in fact, holding short. There is a reason for procedures. It only takes one pilot to do something unexpected like "helping out the controller" by landing without a clearance to kill hundreds of people.

"Well, I thought I was helping him out" isn't going to keep you or your certificates safe. I'll help a controller out to the fullest extent I can within the regs, but there is no way to know if I'm helping him out unless he asks me for a favor.

High horse much?

Everybody and their dog skip knows that landing without a clearance breaks the FARs. Some of us prefer to give real world examples rather than coming in here and screaming DOOOOOOOOMMM!1111oneone

[flyted19]

The reasons why a landing clearance is not given on initial contact with the tower are many. Often a "continue" or "expect landing clearance short final" are given but not always. If by a 3 mile final your still waiting, ask. If its too busy and you can't get a word in edgewise. Go around, its what is expected. Period.

Minimum fuel- You get no priority for stating that. Read the AIM for the agreed definition we all use.. What's min fuel to you is likely to be different from the next pilot. If your running a sequence and the only option to change your # is to break someone out, the controller is not justified in doing that and most likely will not be supported by management and whoever got broke out will likely call and complain. "Emergency fuel" will get you priority and other a/c will take a lap to get you what you need.

[ATPtoATC]

Originally Posted by cmill

High horse much?

Everybody and their dog skip knows that landing without a clearance breaks the FARs. Some of us prefer to give real world examples rather than coming in here and screaming DOOOOOOOOMMM!1111oneone

This has nothing to do with the high horse.

My point was just that no one on here has given any good reason to land without a clearance, putting your certificates and lives of hundreds of passengers on the line. I also think I gave a couple good real world examples:

1) Unsure whether or not the guy holding short downfield is actually holding short.
2) The FAA questioning you and you saying "I was just trying to help the controller out".

Both of the above are VERY feasible.

[flyinawa]

Originally Posted by ATPtoATC

This has nothing to do with the high horse.

My point was just that no one on here has given any good reason to land without a clearance, putting your certificates and lives of hundreds of passengers on the line. I also think I gave a couple good real world examples:

1) Unsure whether or not the guy holding short downfield is actually holding short.
2) The FAA questioning you and you saying "I was just trying to help the controller out".

Both of the above are VERY feasible.

After landing in ORD without a landing clearance because the frequency was so congested everyone was stepping on each other and then taxiing nearly all the way to the ramp entrance without a clearance from ground because that one was congested as well and you NEVER stop on a taxiway in Chicago unless you're going to hit something or you are told to, "Eagle XXXX, Nice job. Tower says 'thanks, you're cleared to land' . You know where you're going. Continue taxi to the ramp. We are really having one of those days up here. Take care."

Wow, no violation. I wonder why not? And why would the tower have thanked him for landing? Why would my 20 year captain, based in ORD nearly his entire career, have risked his job? Maybe he knew something I didn't know....

[Doug Taylor]

Rumor has it that ATL presumes "you see the green light"

[C150J]

What about landing on 21L in DTW when they're shooting departures off 22L DIRECTLY in the path of an unannounced (can't get a word in edge-wise on ANY of the tower frequencies) go-around?

Pick your poison - declare an emergency, go around and get an RA, or visually sweep the runway with your eyes/TCAS, and file an ASAP immediately after touchdown.

I have seen all three, but wasn't in the cockpit - going to withhold judgement.

Clear as mud?

[Screaming_Emu]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Rumor has it that ATL presumes "you see the green light"

That's the rumor I've heard, and logic would say if you're #1 on final in a place in ATL they know you're coming.

That being said its not good enough for me. You'll never have to do a carpet dance for a go around without a clearance, but you might for a landing without a clearance. Not worth it to me.

Besides, I could use the practice.

[drunkenbeagle]

Originally Posted by Socal321

No clearance landings happen all the time. ATC/Pilots forget. They should make the rules so that you're only cleared to land when you're number1 with a clear runway like in Europe.

Hah, I hear a lot of "Number 4, behind medflight air taxi, banner tow, cessna on 2 mile base....Cleared to Land."

You can always get "landing clearance revoked" if it ain't gonna work out

[RobertB]

Originally Posted by triple7

This happened to me in EWR one night. On final we check in. Told to continue. "500 ft" "checks on glide"...ok we cleared to land?....wait no we are not. "200" still cant get a word in. Tower guy is slammed with all the evening heavy departures and longwinded readbacks by other aircraft. So, 100 feet and we are outta there. I had the departing BA 777 insight and made a turn to parallel his DP course(190 hdg). The controller freaked then asked the reason for the go around. We responded..."no landing clearance". Silence.......so yeah we were in the right. But had we landed no one would've probably said a thing since he was oblivious to the fact he never cleared us. Regardless the go around is the textbook answer since we were never really sure why he told us to continue. Could've been an ops vehicle, another aircraft disabled....who knows.

He probably had someone in position and hold when you checked on and just forgot to clear you to land after clear that aircraft for departure. Thanks to the great, great TIPH rules at a ton of airports across the country.

[RobertB]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Rumor has it that ATL presumes "you see the green light"