Cleared to Land, Runway 19L.

[ClearedToTakeoff]

What's the most appropriate readback? I have a fellow coworker who tells me what I'm teaching my student is way incorrect and if you listen to airliners that's not how they do it. He said, "[callsign]" is appropriate. I don't feel that at a training class D airport with training controllers just your callsign is appropriate. I feel there's a big difference than 121 class B airports, IFR ops this guy is used to vs. the part 91 class d airport with multiple foreign flight schools on field and ATC training occuring types of readbacks.

He wants,

"Cessna 123 Alpha Bravo, Cleared to Land, Runway 19L"

to be read back with

"Cessna 123 Alpha Bravo."

I want my student pilots to say,

"Cleared to Land, 19L, Cessna 123 Alpha Bravo."

I want them to reply with which termination will be completed, (landing, touch and go, option, ect.) and the Runway so as to prevent a runway incursion incase ATC wishes us to do a straight in on the different runway when returning from the practice area, or any other command that might be contrary to what is to be expected.

Am I in the wrong? I just feel that at a training airport more positive confirmation on what is to be performed the better, since it's not just the pilots that might make a mistake, but also the training contollers. But I've now been dragged in twice by this gentleman in about 6 weeks about my students radio technique.

[N519AT]

I've always been taught that your way is correct. The other guy's way opens the door up to a whole slew of other problems (landing on the wrong runway, to name one) , because there's no redundancy in the readback.

[Cptnchia]

Originally Posted by N519AT

I've always been taught that your way is correct. The other guy's way opens the door up to a whole slew of other problems (landing on the wrong runway, to name one) , because there's no redundancy in the readback.

As a 121 guy, I have to agree. I read back everything, unless told to respond with a callsign only. Why? I want it on the tape. It's a CYA both for the controller and me to catch any discrepencies. If people think it's too anal, too bad.

[Crockrocket94]

When I was down in Florida, I know one of the controllers used to get real real adament about reading back about all runway/hold short/taxi clearances. heck, I think it said that all pilots must readback runway clearances.

Saying, "Cessna AB" would NOT fly if he cleared you to land or something of that nature.

[slushie]

Originally Posted by ClearedToTakeoff

He wants,

"Cessna 123 Alpha Bravo, Cleared to Land, Runway 19L"

to be read back with

"Cessna 123 Alpha Bravo."

Uh, yeah........
try that at VGT and you'll get an immediate response of:

"Cessna 123AB, please read back cleared to land runway ___."

[MikeD]

Agree with all the above. Anything having to do with runways/altitudes/headings/clearances or clearance limits; I'd read back. It's the same as being required to readback a hold short instruction.

A readback is more than just a simple acknowledgement, it's a confirmation.

[Ralgha]

ALWAYS read back clearances. A good (and not very busy) controller will insist on it.

[ClearedToTakeoff]

Thanks guys. I was hoping I wasn't the one in the wrong here.

He's a retired Captain
I'm a brand new instructor with only 170 dual given under my belt.

So he's probably got the mentality that I'm some young punk pilot who doesn't know any better but thinks he's invincible and he's seen my type before since I flat out told him I won't teach my students his way. So I just wanted some more clarification because it's really bothered me because I'm trying not to be some hotdog instructor.

[Cptnchia]

Originally Posted by ClearedToTakeoff

Thanks guys. I was hoping I wasn't the one in the wrong here.

He's a retired Captain
I'm a brand new instructor with only 170 dual given under my belt.

I've flown with some old crusty captains who only respond with the callsign. Some have got on me about reading things back. All I tell them is that if they are comfortable with putting their certificate on the line by not reading back clearances, that's OK for them. I refuse to.

[CN94559]

Originally Posted by slushie

Uh, yeah........
try that at VGT and you'll get an immediate response of:

"Cessna 123AB, please read back cleared to land runway ___."

Except for me, im at TKI

If you dont read back its always "Cessna 123AB need you to confirm the read back" or "Cessna 123AB confirm runway ___ to land/touch n go/stop n go/ etc"

[skatergeek]

Originally Posted by slushie

Uh, yeah........
try that at VGT and you'll get an immediate response of:

"Cessna 123AB, please read back cleared to land runway ___."

In VGT you have to read it back EXACTLY how the say it, I get chewed out about everyday up there for not saying it EXACTLY how they do...

[USMCmech]

Originally Posted by ClearedToTakeoff

He's a retired Captain
I'm a brand new instructor with only 170 dual given under my belt.

"He's forgotten more about flying than you know."

That is not a good thing on his part. Years of military and 121 flying dosen't mean squat when it comes to teaching brand new students. He may have been doing things wrong for all those years.

[genot]

As a controller, I want any clearance read back to cover my rear as well. Some things I'll let slide, such as N12345 I missed the altiliter me: 299.2, N12345 thanks. A landing clearance though, I want to know about and have a readback on. It may not be a huge deal if were talking an airport with 18/36 and you're VFR lined up on long final for 36, but I want the assurance.

[Douglas]

This guy is way off base.

[gatorbuc99]

Dunno if we're allowed to do this, an audio link from another site, but here you go:

http://www.liveatc.net/forums/atcavi...ch;attach=2186

CYA

[jynxyjoe]

Used to hear a CO guy every morning (for about a month straight) in BOS say "OK" in response to tower's "cleared to takeoff runway 22R". Jaw dropping.

[clestudentpilot]

Originally Posted by gatorbuc99

Dunno if we're allowed to do this, an audio link from another site, but here you go:

http://www.liveatc.net/forums/atcavi...ch;attach=2186

CYA

What a great link to put on this thread. You are supposed to read back ALL control instructions. I know I once told an a/c "12345 turn right at delta, contact ground point 8", the pilot responded with just a double click, which I have always heard the clicks don't even show up on the tapes. The supervisor heard this, and immediately informed the a/c that a double click is not appropriate for a control instruction, and he is to read back a control instruction. Of course the old instructor in the plane replied "i fly the a/c first, communicate second". Just shows the lack of understanding an knowledge in that cockpit! The supervisor never told him he had to immediately read it back or anything, just said he had to do it. If he had the time to double click, I think he had the time to respond, maybe not immediately, but he still had to respond when he felt like he safely could. Of course this was during training, once a controller has their ticket, trainers are not looking over you, because then you are working on your own ticket

[91-3A]

Originally Posted by ClearedToTakeoff

I want my student pilots to say,

"Cleared to Land, 19L, Cessna 123 Alpha Bravo."

You are absolutely correct. That's right down the lines of the incorrect phraseology being "...my plane..." - it's "I/You have the flight controls." I'm sure he has lots of knowledge and great experience, but he has too much machismo to correct a flight instructor at any level.

[ClearedToTakeoff]

Originally Posted by gatorbuc99

Dunno if we're allowed to do this, an audio link from another site, but here you go:

http://www.liveatc.net/forums/atcavi...ch;attach=2186

CYA

Thank you so very much. I am saving it to my flash drive RIGHT now. So next time (not if, but when) I'm going to put that right on the computer and play it for him. Again, thank you.

[Sunburn]

As a development Air Traffic Controller, we are told that any clearance or instruction needs to be readback for the "Close the Loop" stage of communication, i.e. "N12345, ______ Ground, taxi to runway two niner left via bravo" I expect at least, "Two niner left via bravo N345" even in a clearence, I expect the route exactly as I gave it, but the alt and beacon code at least give me "maintain 7, (assigned) in five, (squawk) in the box"

[v1valarob]

Some of the worst guys to learn the little things from are 121 guys. We will fly 7 legs in a day, and by leg 5 you are getting tired and short cutting things, and radio calls is a perfect example. Ill often leave off the company name and just use the flight number, then Ill think to myself "that wasnt smart." But its the fatigue getting to you.

I dont know how many times at IAD we have been cleared to land on a different runway than assigned, and now there are 3 parallel runways. Reading back the runway is neccessary.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by v1valarob

Some of the worst guys to learn the little things from are 121 guys. We will fly 7 legs in a day, and by leg 5 you are getting tired and short cutting things, and radio calls is a perfect example. Ill often leave off the company name and just use the flight number, then Ill think to myself "that wasnt smart." But its the fatigue getting to you.

I dont know how many times at IAD we have been cleared to land on a different runway than assigned, and now there are 3 parallel runways. Reading back the runway is neccessary.

The real good thing is that you personally recognize when you're performance may be waning due to fatigue, and then take the necessary steps to mitigate it.

Many people don't even realize when they're succumbing to the the insidious nature of fatigue.

[RWH1986]

If you don't read back the runway assignment at Gateway they will question you to verify. Takes up to much air time.

Some things taught by the large flight schools makes me angry. Transpac always does their run ups at the hold short line. They seem surprised when tower lets us go around them. I'm not waiting for them to finish and neither does the tower.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by RWH1986

Some things taught by the large flight schools makes me angry. Transpac always does their run ups at the hold short line. They seem surprised when tower lets us go around them. I'm not waiting for them to finish and neither does the tower.

In between trying to understand what the hell any TransPac plane is saying over the radio.....or the 30+ seconds of mike-keyed time they take to transmit the non-understandable gobbldygook.

[crazyjeep]

I give you ATC guys ALOT of credit. I fortunately had an EX-ATC guys teach me my instrument rating(Guy was out of Bangor, Maine). I learned real quick proper phrasology. And in the end I feel like a more professional pilot. Things stick out way more than they used to.

AKA, Are you with someone at 5 thousand? just say 4 thousand climbing 6 thousand. The whole with you is redundent, We make fun of pilots for saying that.

Other things, Ohh, take off. Cessna 12345 ready for takeoff runway 5, holding short on Alpha or some contrived thing. Unless ATC specifies to give your location, just say, Cessna 12345 ready for departure on tower. They know the actives, and are sitting next to the ground controller.

Whole bunch of stuff actually. Been teaching my friend, and he gave this whole spew once. "Tower Cessna 12345 ready for takeoff holding short of runway 5 have atis, request to remain in the pattern" Ahh hell. lol. From then I took over the radios, he's gotten better. He didnt know "busy" on the radios until I took him down to ATL airspace. Thats busy. Keep the airwaves clear of clutter.