Proper Response to ATC

[fly8slep]

What's the deal with clearance readbacks? For a long time there I got away with just the squawk code but lately I've had a run of controllers wanting more than just the squawk code. New controllers maybe??

[LawnGnome]

Originally Posted by Alpha Lima

Found it on Google

HTML
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sourc...nmIoew0pryypbg

PDF
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sourc...eH1GdoYX6z_jIg

However it seems silly with the note

NOTE- Failure to adhere to the additional requirements in this phraseology demonstration will not constitute an operational error if the other current provisions of 2-4-3 a and b are properly applied. However, these additional requirements are expected to improve operational performance. Failure to properly apply them should be addressed in accordance with applicable orders, policies, and agreements.

So they are saying hey guys we think this is a good idea, but not totally required.

Here is the FAA Memorandum concerning the issue:

Date: Sept 15 2008

To: Distribution

From: Raul C. Trevino, Director, Terminal Safety and Operations Support

Prepared By: Vincent V. Shobe, Terminal Operations and Procedures

Subject: Adcknowledgement of Altitude Clearance and Altitude Read Back, on Automatic Terminal Information System (ATIS)

ATO-S has determined that missed pilot read backs have contributed to operational errors in the National Airspace System (NAS). On September 23, 2008, Notice JO 7110.489, Acknowledgement of Altitude Clearances and Altitude Read Back will become effective. This Notice will require operational personanel to ensure that pilots read back their assigned altitude.

For the duration of this Notice, the requirement for pilots to read back their assigned altitude must be broadcast on the ATIS.

Examples of phraesology ATIS:

"All aircraft read back all assigned altitudes"

"All aircraft read back all hold short instructions and assigned altitudes"

If the pilot states the correct assigned altitude during required transmissions, that pilot statement will fulfill the requirement for assigned altitude verification.

If you have any questions of desire further information, please contact Vincent Shobe, Terminal Operations and Procedures, at (202) 385-8938.


Before all this, controllers needed to only here an acknowledgement from the pilot stating that he had his clearance....now at the very minimum, they need the altitude readback...so a proper and quick response from a pilot could be...."N1234 copy all or roger, maintain 5 thousand." However for clarity, the controller always has the right to make a pilot read back the entire clearance....especially if the controller thinks the pilot is shady at best.

Hope that helps clarify the issue.

[MidlifeFlyer]

My impression is that most operation deviatons under IFR are altitude-related. The read-back requirement may be an attempt to avoid those that are based on not really hearing it.

[Matt777]

Originally Posted by whysoserial

Not sure if all facilities got this or not but all altitudes must be readback now unless it is in conjunction with an approach clearance. Yup...when you get a clearance and you don't read it back...we are going to give you a "Verify assigned altitude." Rogers don't cut it anymore when it comes to altitude.

Really? So I don't have to read back, " Maintain 2,200 until established" when it is part of my approach clearance?" Is there a reference?

[Juliet Lima]

Originally Posted by Matt777

Really? So I don't have to read back, " Maintain 2,200 until established" when it is part of my approach clearance?" Is there a reference?

u absolutely DO NOT need to read back your altitude assignment in your approach clearance. isn't a bad idea though.

i'll find a reference real quick. hold on.

plus if i have to hear u say "maintain 2,200 until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 13R approach" one more time.

Go Seahawks

[Juliet Lima]

Lawngnome's response 3 post above is the exact thing i was looking for. it was a notice from the FAA for controllers. it told us our NEW responsibility to police altitude readbacks in the clearance delivery position.

have patience pilots...we are required to ask u for it.

and yes, it also states the exemption for approach clearances, because of the excessive phraseology that accompanies an approach clearance.

[Matt777]

Originally Posted by Juliet Lima

u absolutely DO NOT need to read back your altitude assignment in your approach clearance. isn't a bad idea though.

i'll find a reference real quick. hold on.

plus if i have to hear u say "maintain 2,200 until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 13R approach" one more time.

Go Seahawks

Hahaha!!!
Have you actually heard me or are you just putting the pieces together (2,200' and seattle = KBFI ILS 13R)

Yeah you haven't heard me cuz I do leave out the " on the localizer" and " runway" and "approach".
Like this: " maintain 2,200 until established, cleared ILS 13R"!

Hey, how about this? " 2,200, cleared ILS 13R "

Wow that's gonna make it much easier!!!

[Juliet Lima]

Originally Posted by Matt777

Hahaha!!!
Have you actually heard me or are you just putting the pieces together (2,200' and seattle = KBFI ILS 13R)

just put it together.

Originally Posted by Matt777

Hey, how about this? " 2,200, cleared ILS 13R "
Wow that's gonna make it much easier!!!

i like it!

i AM a big time Seahawks fan though on the real.

[BrewMaster]

The reason they say it is for some kind of response. They obviously heard you, but did you hear them? That is the reason. A long "29.99 for N12345" probably isn't necessary, but a quick "two triple niner for three four five" will work unless that is too much of a tongue twister, then some grunts, moans and/or clicks will probably suffice. The whole frequency congestion thing doesn't make sense....it takes one second to respond.

Just be polite and respond, that is when you have truly communicated.

[Sled14]

I usually reply a quick "altimeter 06M" or just call sign. If I'm another pilot checking in I'd rather listen to a quick acknoledgement rather than sit and wait wondering if their gonna respond so I dont step on them.

[///AMG]

In addition to the VACATERS calls, I like to read back altimeter if for no other reason to eliminate any possibility that I heard it incorrectly. Right or wrong I usually omit my callsign when I do this if the freq is congested just saying "Altimeter xx.xx". My understanding about in flight squawk assignments was that you didn't need to read-back, but that you did need to acknowledge "radar contact" when they roger up again. I too have heard clearance delivery request a read-back for an initial clearance, and although it is not technically required (unless by company SOP or whatever) it seems like good form if they want it.

[sundog]

Originally Posted by Juliet Lima

plus if i have to hear u say "maintain 2,200 until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 13R approach" one more time.

noo, it's ME that is fumbling through the entire approach clearance into kbfi every time.

[Boris Badenov]

I read it back, with callsign. A) It's what you're supposed to do, but more to the point B) I view it as insurance. Reminds me to look, or if it's an approach altitude, it reminds me to set it in the ole dumbass-window. If a frequency is so congested that they don't have time for "two nine nine four, FreightMonster such and such", they need to slow down or open another sector. In my view you really ought at least to give a "roger" and callsign, but it's no skin off my back if you don't.

I don't think Bubba and Vern belong on Chicago approach discussing their pancake breakfast, but honestly, some people get way too bent out of shape about shortening their transmissions to sound "more professional". You're a professional as long as the plane doesn't crash and the check clears. You don't need to prove it to me or anybody else on the frequency through steely-eyed radio-terseness.

[XcalibeR]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

I've also been chewed out by a pilot (rightly so) for issuing him an old altimeter. The altimeter was six hours old and I didn't notice. Fortunately the pilot did.

I'm not taking the time to read the whole thread, so sorry if this changes the subject

I've noticed over the past several months that, rough guesstimate, 70% of the altimeter settings that ATC has given me have been old (i.e. from the last ATIS cycle). They're usually not more than .01 or .02 off, so it's not that big of a deal, but I've always found it peculiar that they use non-current weather data. And it's not just an "oh they just put out a new one" bit either, I've seen some used that are over an hour old.

[Cruise]

Originally Posted by GlenWimpy

Taylor , your on the $ 99.9% of the time. While training students in VFR weather , its appropriate to teach the FAR/AIM phraseology , but in the real world , doing approaches , in busy airports down to minimums with tired pilots ,when the controllers are busy , we just click the mic. Now if its headings , altitudes etc , now thats different. You have to be able to distinguish between the two...................

I can not emphasis how much I disagree with this....and I fly in to, and out of, some of the busiest airspace in the world.

I've always hated the 'double-click' of the mic. What does that mean? Where can I find an explanation....I can't, 'cause it doesn't exist as an appropriate form of Pilot/ Controller communication. This is a very bad habit to form, IMO. Don't do it!

[frog_flyer]

I always like the monetary themed ones.

Twenty-nine and a dime, American 69.

Thirty and a quarter, American 1332.



Or my patented: "3 buckshot 2" 30.02

[aloft]

Originally Posted by GlenWimpy

Taylor , your on the $ 99.9% of the time. While training students in VFR weather , its appropriate to teach the FAR/AIM phraseology , but in the real world , doing approaches , in busy airports down to minimums with tired pilots ,when the controllers are busy , we just click the mic. Now if its headings , altitudes etc , now thats different. You have to be able to distinguish between the two...................

I gotta also disagree with this one. I will *occasionally* double-click the mic in response, but only as a reply to unimportant transmissions from ATC like "nice job, thanks for the help". If it's in any way related to flight operations, the minimum I'll respond with is my callsign--and I try to see how often I can get away with that alone. But I always read back significant elements like headings, altitudes, etc, or to simple instructions with "wilco".

I guess what bothered me about your reply is that situations with busy controllers, tired pilots and wx down to mins is when you should be reading back calls the most. It's too easy for a simple miscommunication to result in disaster.

[granlistillo]

Originally Posted by adreamer

Case in point. On the way to PHL(tropical storm Hanna passed by), I got ATIS, Altimeter was 2972. By the time, we got into PHL approach, it was 2942. That might not a lot difference in altitude. It could mean you can or can't made it to the runway.

In this case your altimeter is overreading and you are lower than actually indicated. Bad news.

That is 300' right? So if it overreads it could kill you on a socked in approach, and if it undereads you might have to go missed.

[ClearedToTakeoff]

On the topic of altimeter settings, a question I've always had. If I'm on V16 heading towards PSP VOR westbound, when I am handed off to a new LA Center controller, I'm given an altimeter setting for Palm Springs, which I acknowledge. Later on in the hour, still flying to PSP, I hear another pilot check on and is given a new altimeter setting for Palm Springs. This is a debate I've had, do I change my altimeter setting to reflect the new setting given to the other pilot? One of the arguments I've heard is to not update because ATC is providing seperation based off of what your transponder is reporting, so if the altimeter setting varies a few hundred feet, ATC won't be expecting that change, and it messes up their seperation. But then the other side of the debate is that you always update to the current altimeter setting. I can imagine what the answer is, but i'd like to hear it from a controller themselves.

[gatorbuc99]

Originally Posted by ClearedToTakeoff

On the topic of altimeter settings, a question I've always had. If I'm on V16 heading towards PSP VOR westbound, when I am handed off to a new LA Center controller, I'm given an altimeter setting for Palm Springs, which I acknowledge. Later on in the hour, still flying to PSP, I hear another pilot check on and is given a new altimeter setting for Palm Springs. This is a debate I've had, do I change my altimeter setting to reflect the new setting given to the other pilot? One of the arguments I've heard is to not update because ATC is providing seperation based off of what your transponder is reporting, so if the altimeter setting varies a few hundred feet, ATC won't be expecting that change, and it messes up their seperation. But then the other side of the debate is that you always update to the current altimeter setting. I can imagine what the answer is, but i'd like to hear it from a controller themselves.

Not a controller but....WHA? Never heard that. Dial in the current setting so you're at the correct altitude; ATC's providing seperation based on where(altitude and location) they're expecting you to be.

[ClearedToTakeoff]

Originally Posted by gatorbuc99

Not a controller but....WHA? Never heard that. Dial in the current setting so you're at the correct altitude; ATC's providing seperation based on where(altitude and location) they're expecting you to be.

Not based off of what they're reading on your Mode C readout?

[gatorbuc99]

Originally Posted by ClearedToTakeoff

Not based off of what they're reading on your Mode C readout?

I think you're makin this a lil more difficult than it is. Hopefully what's on their scope is the correct altitude, the one you should be at, the one the're expecting you to BE at, which you will be if you dial in the current altimeter.

[minitour]

I wait until I'm told specifically.

-mini