Rip N97224...

[HighFlyingIL]

Crash happened May 1st 2007 but my school wouldn't let me release the pictures until insurance was covered first and we recieved a replacement aircraft. Well... It was my school's favorite aircraft... It flew the best of all 6 of there 172's and RG's by far. Also, the last picture is my friends dad's Pitts Taildragger... More on that story later...

American Flyers Cessna 172R N97224 story from the former- CFI/II...

N97224 was coming into land on Rwy 33. There approach was high, and about 15 knots faster than the normal IAS when flaps full are set. IAS was around 80kts and pitched down pretty well... power still at about 1000-1100rpm. Well, the CFI told the student that he was high, overpowered, and fast... So, now there at about 30ft. AGL... the student CHOPS the power to idle (about 700rpm or so) and keeps the nose pitched down. BAAAD news already. They bounced FLAT on all 3's off the runway and balloned about 20-30 feet up and the CFI went full power and was trying to do a go-around when the student FREAKED OUT and YANKED 50 degrees NOSE UP and power-on stalled the aircraft... the CFI went nose down to gain airspeed, but they dropped out of the sky...LITERALLY... nose-wheel first into the ground and it broke off... CFI yanked power to idle and they slid about 200 feet while the left wing smacked the ground and around the plane went off the runway... The aircraft is totalled, CFI got fired, and the student was never to be seen again...







NTSB Report:
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...07CA128&akey=1


So, now on to the story about the Pitts tailwheel... My friends dad was doing some acrobatic stuff out in a practice area... as he came back into land on Rwy. 20R at DuPage he ended up getting more than just a visual approach...




HOW ABOUT a local airport covered in snow... (KDKB) DeKalb, IL :

[LoadMasterC141]

The CFI got fired? No positive exchange of controls or something? Otherwise I would think that he tried to correct the situation but the student grabbing the controls...what do you do?
(Not a CFI, yet)

Oh and nice pics by the way. Thanks for sharing!

[HighFlyingIL]

Originally Posted by LoadMasterC141

The CFI got fired? No positive exchange of controls or something? Otherwise I would think that he tried to correct the situation but the student grabbing the controls...what do you do?
(Not a CFI, yet)

Oh and nice pics by the way. Thanks for sharing!

Well... everything happens SO FAST that its impossible to say "i have flight controls" "you have flight controls" "i have flight controls" ... I mean if your plane was stalling right above the runway its naturally the CFI's job to correct it. You just practice positive exchange so you know whose flying the plane... In something like this... I think I'd get physical with the student... take his hands AWAY from the yoke and fly the damn thing myself. Then again i'm (not trying to brag) but im quite a muscular guy so overpowering pretty much anyone yoke-wise isn't a problem for me... So, really the CFI didn't do his job of preventing the situation and/or taking control of the situation BEFORE it happened...

Personally... if I were the student... I would have done 1 of 2 things... 1.) Forward slip to lose altitude quickly and 2.) DO A DAMN GO-AROUND if that didn't work... ATC would rather you do a go-around than crash and close the runway for 2-3 hours and go through the NTSB bullshiznit...

[coa787]

Personally, I'm not surprised that the CFI got fired. I mean, the CFI should have detected a problem with the way the student was flying earlier in the approach and should have given the student plenty of time to correct it.

If that didn't work, the CFI should have taken the controls from the student and gone around to try again, or he should have landed and explained what the student was doing wrong and asked if the student felt comfortable in trying again.

[JEP]

Doesn't sound as exciting as the OP, but here is the NTSB report:

NTSB Identification: CHI07CA128.
The docket is stored in the Docket Management System (DMS). Please contact Records Management Division
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Tuesday, May 01, 2007 in West Chicago, IL
Probable Cause Approval Date: 6/27/2007
Aircraft: Cessna 172P, registration: N97224
Injuries: 2 Uninjured.

The airplane impacted a ditch following an uncontrolled exit from the runway surface (runway 33, 3,401 feet long, 100 foot wide, dry concrete). The instructor reported that after touchdown, the power was increased but the airplane yawed into the left crosswind. The airplane then exited the runway into the grass adjacent to the runway. The instructor stated that the main gear dragged in the grass and the nose gear dug into the ground. The airplane then pivoted to the right and the left wingtip impacted and dragged through the grass. The reported wind conditions about the time of the accident were from 280 magnetic degrees at 13 knots, gusting to 21 knots. Inspection of the airplane did not reveal any flight control or mechanical malfunction that would have prevented normal operation.

The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:
The instructor's inadequate remedial action following the student pilot's loss of control during the crosswind landing and the instructor's failure to compensate for the wind conditions. Contributing factors were, the crosswind, the gusting wind conditions and the ditch.

[esa17]

Crap rolls downhill, its always the CFI's fault.

[HighFlyingIL]

Thanks for posting the NTSB report, but I posted it in the original post

[E6BAV8R]

Originally Posted by coa787

Personally, I'm not surprised that the CFI got fired. I mean, the CFI should have detected a problem with the way the student was flying earlier in the approach and should have given the student plenty of time to correct it.

If that didn't work, the CFI should have taken the controls from the student and gone around to try again, or he should have landed and explained what the student was doing wrong and asked if the student felt comfortable in trying again.

So are you going to take the controls from a new student learning approaches and landing every time the approach isn't perfect? I agree that there is a point where you need to take the controls and help him out, but once you start CFI'ing you realize the students only really learn when they are doing something on their own; and let me tell you being high, full flaps, and at 80 knots isn't an unusual situation for new students.

A good portion of CFI'ing is explaining the situation to the student and what he did good and bad and allowing him, within certain contraints, to learn it on his own. A student can be told something on the ground 500 times but it won't get in his head until he sees it happen in the airplane, from my experience.

Sad deal for the CFI in this situation IMO.

[flywithUS]

"Contributing factors were, the crosswind, the gusting wind conditions and the ditch."

Haha, I love it.

[Pacheco]

I feel bad for the cfi. We recently had a plane crash at my airport. The scrape marks are on the taxi way from when they dragged it back to the hangars.

[meyers9163]

WOW.... memories of a student of mine just flashed back.... she hit the plane the hardest I have ever EVER experienced.... haha

[sdfcvoh]

Don't take this post personally, but I've seen it one too many times with some random school's God-Complex and I've got to post this: Did you waive your constitutional first amendment rights when you signed their training contract? "Crash happened May 1st 2007 but my school wouldn't let me release the pictures until insurance was covered first and we recieved a replacement aircraft.

[ALSF2]

Poor Bird. Poor wing.

Any idea what kind of BOP it was?

[gator4798]

Originally Posted by ALSF2

Any idea what kind of BOP it was?

A hard one by the looks of it. Ouch!

*Assuming BOP = Bird of Prey*

[CameronF]

I really don't think you can blame the CFI for trying to correct the situation. It probably happened so fast and he was probably not expecting the student to react in the way he did. Sure you guys can say you would do this or you would do that to counter-act the student, but in reality when something like this happens, i dont think your taking any time away from you trying to correct the airplanes stall and reach over and over muscle the student from the controls. I just dont see that being a reality. However i am not a CFI yet so my words really dont have much meaning. Just my .02 cents.

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by HighFlyingIL

Well... everything happens SO FAST that its impossible to say "i have flight controls" "you have flight controls" "i have flight controls" ... I mean if your plane was stalling right above the runway its naturally the CFI's job to correct it. You just practice positive exchange so you know whose flying the plane...

In this situation, I agree with you 100%. Mental power will always overcome physical strength when used effectively.

Originally Posted by HighFlyingIL

In something like this... I think I'd get physical with the student... take his hands AWAY from the yoke and fly the damn thing myself. Then again i'm (not trying to brag) but im quite a muscular guy so overpowering pretty much anyone yoke-wise isn't a problem for me... So, really the CFI didn't do his job of preventing the situation and/or taking control of the situation BEFORE it happened...

So, who is the say the CFI's action didn't prevent something more catastrophic? As the NTSB report indicates, the instructor is ultimately responsible which is, in my opinion, the true test of an instructor should be illustrated. . .not in simply going through the motions of teaching to PTS but recognizing all potential worse case scenarios during critical periods and having a plan to curtail those worse case scenarios should they actually occur. The CFI here missed a situation to shine. There have probably been many a CFI before him in the same exact situation who overcame this situation and do not have an NTSB report showing lack of successful resolution.

Nope, I can't blame him; yep, it was his fault. Yes, there were many options not performed that could have possibly prevented this incident. Yep, lesson learned for many others.

[LoadMasterC141]

The instructors I have had always let me mess up to the maximum extent possible. I am sure we have all been in the same position as a student at siome point. I got high and fast on an approach once, dived for the runway. All my instructor said on the approach was,
"you are high and fast, don't land fast".
I got down to the runway, and as we floated halfway down it, he said "so now what are you going to do?"
I said go around. He said on a normal runway yes, on the 8000 footer we were on, land.

I mean I think that is the way people really learn. That is the whole point of practicing stalls, heaven forbid you ever actually are in one by mistake.

[NJA_Capt]

Originally Posted by CameronF

I really don't think you can blame the CFI for trying to correct the situation. It probably happened so fast and he was probably not expecting the student to react in the way he did.

Sure you can. Why was he flying a lesson with 21 kt gusting winds? If it happened too fast then he wasn't far enough ahead of the airplane or he let it progress beyond the scope of his abilities to recover. Or possibly the crosswind was beyond his ability to safely land. If the plane weathervaned so fast, it sounds like he wasn't using the rudder effectively either. The error chain on this appears to be long and wide.

One of the biggest things you will ever try to teach is judgment. When you'll fly and when you stay on the ground. There are very few reasons why it would be necessary to fly a lesson with strong gusty winds.

[JEP]

Originally Posted by HighFlyingIL

Thanks for posting the NTSB report, but I posted it in the original post

and now people don't have to open another window to read it.....

[Copperhed51]

I may be completely wrong here, but the tail dragger looks like some model of RV, not a Pitts. Do they make any Pitts out of aluminum? Not trying to be a smart arse, just curious if it's a Pitts model I haven't seen before.

[coa787]

Originally Posted by E6BAV8R

So are you going to take the controls from a new student learning approaches and landing every time the approach isn't perfect? I agree that there is a point where you need to take the controls and help him out, but once you start CFI'ing you realize the students only really learn when they are doing something on their own; and let me tell you being high, full flaps, and at 80 knots isn't an unusual situation for new students.

A good portion of CFI'ing is explaining the situation to the student and what he did good and bad and allowing him, within certain contraints, to learn it on his own. A student can be told something on the ground 500 times but it won't get in his head until he sees it happen in the airplane, from my experience.

Sad deal for the CFI in this situation IMO.

I understand what you're trying to say. I was actually referring to taking the controls in situations that could result in crashes. It's OK if the approach isn't perfect, but like I said, I would give the student enough time to correct his mistakes, in order to land safely.

If a student was landing at 80 knots, full flaps and is little high on the approach, I would continue to tell him how to correct the approach with the aircraft. But if the aircraft is at 30 feet and the student failed to correct his mistakes, that's when I would take over, or I would let him perform a go-around because there isn't enough time to land safely with the current situation that the aircraft is in.

I apologize if I failed to make my point clear in my original post.

[HighFlyingIL]

Originally Posted by NJA_Capt

Sure you can. Why was he flying a lesson with 21 kt gusting winds? If it happened too fast then he wasn't far enough ahead of the airplane or he let it progress beyond the scope of his abilities to recover. Or possibly the crosswind was beyond his ability to safely land. If the plane weathervaned so fast, it sounds like he wasn't using the rudder effectively either. The error chain on this appears to be long and wide.

One of the biggest things you will ever try to teach is judgment. When you'll fly and when you stay on the ground. There are very few reasons why it would be necessary to fly a lesson with strong gusty winds.

The insurance company my school uses (in reguards to winds) is either steady at 30kts or higher and no gust.. OR gusting 30kts or greater our insurance company doesn't let us take off... However, landing is a different story as long as you took off BEFORE the winds hit 30kts...

[barnstormer09]

The CFI should have taken control in the situation sooner, in my opinion. Does that merit him being fired? Probably not. 30 feet off the ground things happen pretty quickly... it's difficult to judge how a student will react to any situation, let alone a situation like that.

As a CFI who can't overpower my students (I'm 5'4" and weigh about 115lbs soaking wet, some of the guys I fly with are college football players), I've had to come up with more creative ways to take the controls. If somebody has never had to deal with things like that, they would probably underestimate their students strength in a panicked situation.

[NJA_Capt]

Originally Posted by HighFlyingIL

The insurance company my school uses (in regards to winds) is either steady at 30kts or higher and no gust.. OR gusting 30kts or greater our insurance company doesn't let us take off... However, landing is a different story as long as you took off BEFORE the winds hit 30kts...

It is rather surprising that the insurance (or school) allows such a high limit. However, just because it is allowed, doesn't mean it is the safest or most practical thing to do. I can think of very few lessons that can be meaningful/productive to a student with high and/or gusty winds.

[bLizZuE]

I think the CFI did what he could to little too late. As the NTSB report states, he failed to take remedial action. This is a very common thing you'll find in NTSB reports involving instructors and students. The IP should have commanded a go-around. I make it very clear with all of my students, if I call for the controls, or say go around, you do it. If it doesn't happen in the amount of time I'm comfortable with. IE- IMMEDIATELY, it's my controls.

This isn't just about keeping airplanes out of ditches. CFIs and students DIE when positive exchange doesn't take place. It's a special emphasis on every PTS. Don't be relaxed about it, and complacent about it. Brief your students on the severity of the topic and tell them that if they expect you to keep them safe, you expect them to obey. It's that simple.

It's unfortunate for the IP and the student, but lets help make this not happen again.