Republic May Now Be Worse Than You Know Who...

[RWH1986]

Saw this on airliners...not sure if its true but is a must read...

[quote]Quote:
New Rumor



“My good friend a manager there at YX, told me that yesterday the company let go of 60+ management positions. He had a important meeting about it as soon as I learn more I will share the info. He said, many different positions have been cut in management, and he believes that YX will go under very shortly and the certificate will then go to RAH, and that was the plan for the RAH's management to get the certificate and operate bigger metal under the MIDWEST name. No one knows who Republic Airways is, but people know who Midwest Airlines is. Very sad news to many of the employees there who have been let go of, after many years with the company.

[aloft]

Oh, the irony! lol

Sucks for the Midwest people, but at least now everyone knows the true nature of the regional airline business, even among the "good" ones.

[WacoFan]

But, at the core of the issue, RAH pilots did not go to work there knowing, or with the intention of putting Midwest Airlines pilots on the street. They went to a Regional to fly - not to bypass other pilots by jumping to another certificate. This is a result of Republics management being hyper aggressive with Midwest, as well as Midwest managements incompetence. I feel truly bad for the Midwest pilots, and I personally loved and flew Midwest whenever I could. I guess that Midwest rebuffing Air Tran a couple years ago wasn't such a great idea.

As I said, I feel bad for Midwest guys - and I felt bad for ABX/AStar guys too - but I didn't hold UPS pilots responsible, nor do I hold RAH pilots responsible. So, in my opinion - they are not worse that "you know who".

[aloft]

Originally Posted by WacoFan

But, at the core of the issue, RAH pilots did not go to work there knowing, or with the intention of putting Midwest Airlines pilots on the street. They went to a Regional to fly - not to bypass other pilots by jumping to another certificate. This is a re

That pretty much describes every pilot everwhere. With the exception of the initial pilot groups at Freedom and GoJet, I don't think any pilot takes a job with the intention of doing anything but flying. Those among the JC tin-foil hat brigade will disagree, I'm sure.

[Velocipede]

Yeah, RAH pilots are innocent. They only DID the Midwest flying. Oh, yeah...and came on this forum bragging about coming off furlough to do it.

GMAFB!

[Doug Taylor]

Sounds like basic rumot on the series of tubes that is the internets.

If I had a $20 for every time someone said, "Hey man, my buddy is good friends with a guy on the 'Fourth Floor' and he says..." I'd... wait... what's that phrase I used to use back in the day?

I'd be lying flat on my back on the deck of my yacht, three sheets to the wind, listening to the empty bottles of Cristal roll back and forth...

I think I used to add the '...screaming at Donatella Versace to keep the noise down on her dingy'

[Nick]

http://www.jsonline.com/business/38579577.html

Midwest could lose final 717s
Mexicana reportedly interested in jets
By Tom Daykin of the Journal Sentinel
Posted: Jan. 28, 2009

Midwest Airlines Inc. eventually could lose its nine remaining Boeing 717 jets - jeopardizing the carrier's signature wide seats - under a deal being worked out between Boeing Capital Corp. and a Mexican airline, according to a trade publication report.

Midwest spokesman Michael Brophy characterized the report of a possible deal between Boeing and Mexicana Airlines, and its effect on Midwest, as rumor and speculation. Air Transport Intelligence reported this week that Boeing was in negotiations with Mexicana on obtaining 25 Boeing 717s, with the trade publication saying "most if not all" of those are likely to be former Midwest jets.

Midwest's main fleet in recent years consisted of 25 Boeing 717s, but the airline turned back 16 jets to Boeing in September to cut costs. Brophy said Boeing is trying to find an airline to take those 16 jets, but he said airlines other than Midwest could be tapped for additional Boeing 717s, which are no longer made.

Boeing is negotiating a possible lease of Boeing 717s to Mexicana, Boeing spokesman John Kvasnosky confirmed. He referred questions about the nine jets still used by Midwest to the Oak Creek-based airline.

Midwest hasn't been notified by Boeing about taking back the nine jets, Brophy said Wednesday.

Spokesmen for Mexicana didn't respond to requests for comment. Air Transport Intelligence quoted a Mexicana spokesman as saying the airline wants to lease 25 Boeing 717s.

The delivery process, which could begin by April, would take several months to a few years to complete, possibly buying time for Midwest to continue operating the nine remaining Boeing 717s.

Capt. Jay Schnedorf, the head of Midwest's pilots union, declined to comment on the report. Toni Higgins, the Midwest flight attendants union president, said union officials had been hearing rumors since last week about the possible departure of the remaining jets.

That Boeing and Mexicana are discussing a lease of 25 jets - equal to the number of those in Midwest's original fleet - is probably not a coincidence, said Jay Sorensen, a former Midwest Airlines marketing manager.

Airlines want to operate aircraft from the same "litter," with the same operating manuals, avionics equipment and special features, said Sorensen, an aviation marketing consultant based in Shorewood.

End of wide seats?

Some Midwest Airlines routes that once used the Boeing 717s are now flown on smaller Embraer 170 regional jets, operated under contract by Republic Airways Holdings Inc. as Midwest Connect flights.

The Boeing 717 jets account for 37% of the combined seating capacity of Midwest Airlines and Midwest Connect. The remaining seats are on Midwest Connect flights that use a dozen Embraer 170s and a dozen Bombardier CRJ200 regional jets flown under contract with SkyWest Inc.

A loss of the nine remaining Boeing 717s could endanger Midwest's signature wide seats. The 99-seat jets feature 40 wide seats, in two-across rows, and 59 regular seats, in two-by-three rows. The two-across rows have seats that are 21.5 inches wide, with 35 to 36 inches of "pitch," a term that measures leg room. The remaining Boeing 717 seats are 18 inches wide, and most have 33 inches of pitch.

On Midwest Connect, the Embraer 170s have 76 seats that are 18.25 inches wide, with 31 inches of pitch. The 50-seat Bombardier CRJ200s have 17.5-inch wide seats, with 31 inches of pitch.

Midwest uses the Boeing 717s mainly to fly popular business routes to such destinations as New York and Washington, D.C. If Midwest loses those jets, it could contract with Republic Airways to provide more Embraers, Sorensen said.

"Just because the 717s go away doesn't mean the airline goes away," he said.

But it could bring "the continued marginalization of Midwest" and hurt Milwaukee's ability to attract and keep businesses, Sorensen said.

"Milwaukee deserves better than to be a base for regional aircraft," he said.

If that is how it's gonna be, does anyone actually think it would work in the long-run?

It would be no different than Independence Air and ExpressJet branded ops. Despite each of them having failed for different reasons and the latter perhaps a victim more of fuel costs before it's timeline was allowed to run it's full course, flying these 50 and 80 seat jets as their own airline is really an uphill battle.

In addition to that, AirTran is increasing MKE flying and NWA runs what it calls a focus city there. Those two carriers vs. one that makes you gate check your bag on 50% of the flights and offers a smaller jet on the rest. I know which ones I'd bet on working out.

What a complete disgrace on so many levels.

[Doug Taylor]

Mea culpa.

I retract my statement about rumot.

[jtrain609]

If this turns out to not be a rumot it's going to be really, really, really, really bad for all of us. A regional eating a national carrier? Rly?

[WacoFan]

Originally Posted by Velocipede

Yeah, RAH pilots are innocent. They only DID the Midwest flying. Oh, yeah...and came on this forum bragging about coming off furlough to do it.

GMAFB!

Ok...I agree that the outsourcing and scope is the bane of the profession today. The RAH deal is bad for the career.

That said, on this topic specifically, what should the RAH pilots do about this situation?

[WacoFan]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

If this turns out to not be a rumot it's going to be really, really, really, really bad for all of us. A regional eating a national carrier? Rly?

This is what it was like in the 80's in a way. Milken (and yes, I know he did time - but to overlook some of the brilliant things he did is short sighted) had the junk bond market humming. This created unique opportunities for little known players with small businesses to access large amounts of money and make plays for BIG business. Ron Perelman running at Revlon, Nelson Peltz buying National Can, T. Boone Pickens making a run at more than one LARGE oil company.

People were saying the same thing you just said in your post..."This little guy buying THAT!" Nobody could believe it then, and I have a deja vu now after reading your post. Not that anything is the same except for small eating big, but a deja vu nonetheless.

[jtrain609]

I guess I should also clarify myself.

My concern isn't with Republic eating Midwest, it's that Republic pay rates will replace Midwest pay rates.

That scares the living #### out of me.

A 12 year captain at Midwest makes $138 an hour, where a 12 year captain at Chataquatron makes $96 an hour.

Maybe it's just another lap in the race to the bottom, but in my mind it's a giant scam. The downward pressure that capitalist markets create on wages will turn out to be it's destruction. This will happen two fold, first because workers won't be able to afford the goods they create, and second because people will eventually riot because they're paid less and less (I'm obviously expanding this to beyond aviation at this point).

[WacoFan]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

I guess I should also clarify myself.

My concern isn't with Republic eating Midwest, it's that Republic pay rates will replace Midwest pay rates.

That scares the living #### out of me.

A 12 year captain at Midwest makes $138 an hour, where a 12 year captain at Chataquatron makes $96 an hour.

Maybe it's just another lap in the race to the bottom, but in my mind it's a giant scam. The downward pressure that capitalist markets create on wages will turn out to be it's destruction. This will happen two fold, first because workers won't be able to afford the goods they create, and second because people will eventually riot because they're paid less and less (I'm obviously expanding this to beyond aviation at this point).

Didn't Henry Ford state that one of the goals for the assembly line of the Model T was to create a car efficiently enough that it could be sold and the people that were building the car in his factory could afford to buy it?

[aloft]

Yeah, Henry Ford's dead, as is his dream. In their place are executives paying themselves millions in bonuses and cooking the books to run up short-term share values.

[Aviator1988]

Originally Posted by aloft

Yeah, Henry Ford's dead, as is his dream. In their place are executives paying themselves millions in bonuses and cooking the books to run up short-term share values.

. Sad but true.

[falconvalley]

Originally Posted by Velocipede

Yeah, RAH pilots are innocent. They only DID the Midwest flying. Oh, yeah...and came on this forum bragging about coming off furlough to do it.

GMAFB!

Yeah, I know!

For someone who seems to know a lot about how this stuff works, you seem to know absolutely NOTHING about the tiny little factTHAT WE CAN'T DO A THING ABOUT IT.

Why don't you take your eyes off your jumpseat long enough to read the section in your employee handbook that talks about attendance. Every company follows the same standard. If you don't show up for work, YOU'RE FIRED. Do you think a Republic pilot should throw themselves under the bus because a YX management can't figure out their balance sheet? Last time I checked, nobody's on strike over this and for the forseeable future nobody will be. So, what do you suggest we do? Check in with you first to make sure it's ok? Where were you when YX shut my company down and gave the flying to SkyWest? Sounds to me like a couple of overzealous Repub pilots got the best of you.

[SpiraMirabilis]

I think most people that work in a Ford factory can afford a Ford, though.

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by SpiraMirabilis

I think most people that work in a Ford factory can afford a Ford, though.

Employee Pricing!

As far as this latest nugget ...

No other word than scam can describe it. Mesa goes in and gets Aloha's certificate, and now RAH goes in and will end up getting Midwest's certificate?

Who's next?

[Screaming_Emu]

Originally Posted by SpiraMirabilis

I think most people that work in a Ford factory can afford a Ford, though.

But would they want one? :-P

[Polar742]

So if RAH pilot's next contract reflected their status in the industry, would that rectify the problem? I'd say so. Anyone who looked at CHQ when the present contract was signed and could see what the airline is today would have been a Kool-Aid drinker, and I would have considered a nut-job. There is no way in the world that ANYONE could have predicted the very fast change in RAH in the last 3 years.

However, if the PILOTS VOTED for CONCESSIONS to fly MIDWEST flying AFTER the CBA was in effect, THEN you'd have a case.

That's not the case, however.

I'll say it again, Bedford is looking to be a major player with big jets. It is up to my former colleagues to obtain a contract which reflects their place in the industry.

BTW, let me know the contract period where Alaska has been the golden standard for pay and workrules.

[MusketeerMan]

Great post Polar...especially the last line.

Don't worry...if any of this is true, the work & pay rates will be reflected in this current contract negotiation. I'm thinking Bedford would have liked to have the contract finished before any of this came out, but he fortunately doesn't control the timing.

I really wish that we had never loaned Midwest any cash. If we hadn't, they would have gone under months ago and then we could have put in a bid for the cert. with all the others. A branded operation or your own airline in this environment makes mo sense to me.

If it's true...

[WacoFan]

I am too ignorant of many of the facts of ALPA, RAH, etc to really post anything worthwhile. That said, I won't let it stop me!

1) RAH, in my understanding, was basically created a long time ago with USAirs Jets-4-Jobs program. That was the genesis for RAH I think. I think J-4-J was the idea of the USAir MEC (ALPA at the time) to provide relief for furloughed pilots to gain enhanced seniority and pay for furloughees of USAir as a stipulation for flying jets on the express routes. So, in a nutshell, could it be viewed that RAH owes much of its existance to ALPA, and is now eating and putting out of work ALPA pilots?

2) I agree with Polar's post - if the RAH pilots do not make a significant gain in their contract then a negative perception of them will be justified.

3) Is RAH a union carrier? I tried to find them on ALPA last night but couldn't. Are they Teamsters? Non-union?

4) What exactly are the RAH pilots to do? If they have a work action it would illegal unless released by the NMB for self help (if my understanding is correct) and they would not only be fired, but the union they belong to (if any) would face a substantial liability as well. So, what can the RAH pilots do legally to voice their concern?

5) Beyond legality, what is the right and honorable thing for the RAH pilots to do? This question is pointed primarily at Velo, but it would be good to hear others thoughts as well.

I certainly understand Velo's displeasure with this deal. I also understand the displeasure in general and its harm to the profession. Basically, it points the way to an all-regional, all the time payscale. That said, Velo has made a point of saying that what happened amongst the regionals wasn't really much of a concern (in a previous thread regarding jumpseats). Now, this is simply what the regionals have been doing to each other for a long time - it is simply a regional doing it to a large jet airline now. Is ALPA in someway culpable for this? Did a focus on larger airlines induce ALPA into a state of complacency regarding regionals that is now going to cost them in a much bigger way? Also, if this happens, is there any way to put the genie back in the bottle?

These are all questions I have. To my view, this is the biggest issue that has been raised in the 13 months I have been at JC.

[wheelsup]

Republic gets 190's to fly the Midwest Routes. You saw it here first.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by MusketeerMan

A branded operation or your own airline in this environment makes mo sense to me.

If it's true...

What about codeshares where the mainline partners buy a specific number of seats, in effect making it fee for departure (but not quite)? Presto a way around the scope clauses. If that happens unless you are in a widebody at a mainline carrier right now we're all pretty much hosed.

[BobDDuck]

Originally Posted by WacoFan

1) RAH, in my understanding, was basically created a long time ago with USAirs Jets-4-Jobs program. That was the genesis for RAH I think. I think J-4-J was the idea of the USAir MEC (ALPA at the time) to provide relief for furloughed pilots to gain enhanced seniority and pay for furloughees of USAir as a stipulation for flying jets on the express routes.

No. Not at all.

Polar can give you a much better history lesson than I can though so I'll let him do it.

Just to get started though, take a look at Mid Atlantic, and then do some research on "sale of assets" vs. "change in control". Also take a look at AA's scope clause (oh, funny, we are back to the GoJet issue).