Republic May Now Be Worse Than You Know Who...

[JEP]

Originally Posted by Airdale

Too funny this place is.

Half of you are hypocrites, half of you have no clue what you're talking about and the other half don't even know who Republic is.

And what I would do to get a chance to meet Velo in person.

Impossible. Three halfs....

[WacoFan]

Originally Posted by JEP

Impossible. Three halfs....

I was going to say something about this but declined. Yogi Berra had a quoute like this once.

[ricecakecm]

Originally Posted by SIUAv8r

If nobody bid for the MCI base that they opened, they could have had an involuntary displacement in order to fill the spots.

I know of at least one or two guys that I went to college with who bid MCI and got it. Of course, I also know a couple of guys who were at Midwest and got furloughed who now won't talk to those guys. At least the two guys I know who got furloughed moved on to good jobs....one at Walmart, one at NetJets.

[Airdale]

Originally Posted by JEP

Impossible. Three halfs....

You got me. Maybe I was just thinking how this thread was like a 3 nippled woman and everybody's fighting for a sip

[meyers9163]

Originally Posted by Airdale

You got me. Maybe I was just thinking how this thread was like a 3 nippled woman and everybody's fighting for a sip

That's the Airdale we know! haha the half half and half was a little funny though!

[kellwolf]

Okay, I can see the RAH MEC negotiating a sideletter, and they should have. But, some people are now holding the entire RAH pilot group responsibile for the MEC's lack of foresight. I find that wrong and way out of control. It's also possible that the RAH's MEC got blindsided by the Midwest flying and couldn't get a sideletter in time. I know every bit of flying announced here at PCL in the past two years (namely the NWA ASA extension and the Delta flying) came out of the blue and as a complete shock. Even the Colgan purchase was a surprise....to both pilot groups. I find it hard to believe that management at an airline would go to the union and say "Well, we're THINKING about doing this flying. What do you think?" Realistically, in order to keep from the same thing happening again, they'd need the sideletter in advance. Well, I guess EVERY regional MEC better start working on that since we're all just as likely to get hit with the same kind of flying.

Now, for the example posted of RAH going to the MEC and saying FOs get $10 and CAs get $40, I would HOPE that they'd have the integrity to STFD rather than say yes. I know here at PCL if that offer came up, you'd have 99% of the pilot group ready to light the fire themselves.....

[falconvalley]

Yup, that's what we get for deregulating. We have a lot of would've, could've, should've. And having a regulation mentality and closing the jumpseat won't change any of that. If you guys want Midwest to just shut down, fine. It may happen. But right now the company is still running and we have a way of determining what could possibly make the place float. It's is obvious that their previous model wasn't working at the time and no pilot group can change the past or an entire business model. If the MEH MEC comes around and says "HEY, that flying is ours and we want a payscale that can help the business," I will be very glad for them. Unfortunately, the only way to speed up negotiations and get a working deal done is NOT to close the jumpseat. You'd have to take SkyWest and RAH out of the picture as an alternative. You'd need to regulate. Plain and simple. But we're here and because of it BOTH sides can't agree "fast enough". This is the way deregulation works in our market. Deal with it or regulate.

[minitour]

Originally Posted by ppragman

My family > union vs. non-union, or scab vs. proto-scab debate. You're insane if you think anyone is thinking otherwise. Its just a job.

Yep. Family first. Everything else is a far distant second. Period. No exceptions.

-mini

[Velocipede]

Originally Posted by minitour

Yep. Family first. Everything else is a far distant second. Period. No exceptions.

-mini

I guess that means you'll cross the picket line. Nice.

[ppragman]

Originally Posted by Velocipede

I guess that means you'll cross the picket line. Nice.

Whether there's a picket line there doesn't even come into thinking. My family comes first before everything. I don't have to worry about needing the money to feed my kids because I don't have any, but when I do, they are priority number one, and if they only way I can put food in their mouths is being a scab, then so ####ing be it. Its easy to stick to your principles when you have other options that pay equally well. You had the Navy to go back to Velo. I intend on having my degree, and probably the military as well, I probably won't have to, nor will I likely be forced to make that decision, but if I do, family first. Some guys don't have these things. Its easy to say "this is gospel" when you always had an outs. Alaska Airlines hasn't ever had a strike. They've picketed, and they've threatened, but they've never struck, so the holier than thou attitude is a little out of line.

Do you think Horizon's routes could be flown by Alaska Crews? I'm sure they could, is it profitable? No. Its called business. Airline A offers to fly these routes at Price X. Airline B offers to fly these routes at Price Y. If Price X > Price Y, then Airline A = Bankrupt. Its only a matter of time. What do you think is happening to Alaska Air group?

Alaska Air Group Reports $75 Million 4Q Loss

Thursday, January 29, 2009 – updated: 1:03 pm PST January 29, 2009
SEATTLE -- Alaska Air Group lost $75 million in the last quarter. The Seattle-based parent company for Alaska Airlines and Horizon Air blames lower sales and higher fuel costs. Fourth quarter revenue dropped 3 percent to $827 million, compared to the same period a year ago. For all of 2008, Alaska lost $134 million, compared to a $124 million profit the year before. Annual revenue rose 6 percent to $3.7 billion.

Here's the linky :http://www.kirotv.com/money/18594269/detail.html

How long will it be before PenAir starts getting those Saab 2000s online and flying the Anchorage - Juneau flights for you? Probably not that long, not with those figures. Though, albeit, last year was a doozy for everyone involved. I'm not trying ot goad you, I'm saying that blaming the pilots for this is ridiculous. Its business. The corporate office couldn't give a rats ass about the pilot group's wishes, the pay of all the pilots is fairly small potatoes when you compare it with the cost of the rest of the airline. They're just trying to trim where they can. You don't think they have as many maintenance deferable items as possible, and as many fancy computers that keep fuel flows to a minimum and reduce the chance of going missed (which costs money if you do it a lot) for no reason right? Pilots are way down on the list of costs after everything else, and thus will get prioritized as such. Its not right in a lot of ways, but still, its not about the pilots, they don't care about us other than when they can try to trim a few dollars here and there.

[aloft]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

Okay, I can see the RAH MEC negotiating a sideletter, and they should have. But, some people are now holding the entire RAH pilot group responsibile for the MEC's lack of foresight. I find that wrong and way out of control.

Kinda like everyone holding the GoJet pilot group responsible for the TSA MEC's ineptitude and lack of foresight, eh?

But I know, this is toooooootally different.

[SpiraMirabilis]

Originally Posted by Jack London

"After God had finished the rattlesnake, the toad, and the vampire, he had some awful substance left with which he made a scab."

"A scab is a two-legged animal with a corkscrew soul, a water brain, a combination backbone of jelly and glue. Where others have hearts, he carries a tumor of rotten principles."

"When a scab comes down the street, men turn their backs and angels weep in heaven, and the devil shuts the gates of hell to keep him out."

"No man (or woman) has a right to scab so long as there is a pool of water to drown his carcass in, or a rope long enough to hang his body with. Judas was a gentleman compared with a scab. For betraying his master, he had character enough to hang himself." A scab has not.

"Esau sold his birthright for a mess of pottage. Judas sold his Savior for thirty pieces of silver. Benedict Arnold sold his country for a promise of a commision in the british army." The scab sells his birthright, country, his wife, his children and his fellowmen for an unfulfilled promise from his employer.

Esau was a traitor to himself; Judas was a traitor to his God; Benedict Arnold was a traitor to his country; a scab is a traitor to his God, his country, his family and his class."

Edit: From some research, apparently Jack London did not write that, but it is still good.

[Maximillian_Jenius]

Originally Posted by ppragman

Whether there's a picket line there doesn't even come into thinking. My family comes first before everything. I don't have to worry about needing the money to feed my kids because I don't have any, but when I do, they are priority number one, and if they only way I can put food in their mouths is being a scab, then so ####ing be it.

Lol, you guys are dumb...

Velo is the dog in this video and you all are well...




..and, now that he finally got you right where he wanted you by herding you into making that statement. Watch how he quickly changes from a sheperd dog to:

[deadstick]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

Now, for the example posted of RAH going to the MEC and saying FOs get $10 and CAs get $40, I would HOPE that they'd have the integrity to STFD rather than say yes. I know here at PCL if that offer came up, you'd have 99% of the pilot group ready to light the fire themselves.....

Thanks for the response. The idea that this is the fault of Midex pilots because they didn't take the pay "cut" is not right. TH made them an offer (he knew) they couldn't accept. This goes back to to TH spinning situations to deflect the blame for his incompetence.

On another point, here's a rumor from another online rumor mill...
"Heard a rumor that Republics E170 will be pulled off Midwest operations in April. Has anyone heard this too?"

[surreal1221]

Now that's pure evil.

[Airdale]

So my question is this...and its a serious one.

When do we start stoning and hanging the corporate wolves for the games they play with the lives of their employees?

When do we hold them responsible for the destruction of the Airline pilot careers?

When do we stop harrassing each other, and start attacking the people responsible?

I can't even explain how ridiculous and stupid this entire thread is...this entire discussion!! I just don't think I fit into the mold of the modern day Airline pilot. I just don't have the ability to SPIT in the face of my fellow airline pilots, or turn my head and walk in the other direction. I don't have the gutless sense of distaste for pilots working for an airline other than my own. Even if that airlines management does disgusting things. I don't have the lack of professionalism to deny any pilot a jumpseat, regardless of the company written on his badge.

This career is making me sick. The games these corporate CEO's play are immoral and they're unfair. But what is more sickening, is reading thread after thread of a group of pilots attacking and labeling another group of pilots. Grow up.

You don't like how CEO of XYZ operates the company, then write a letter to him. Give him a call. Send him an e-mail. Oh wait, you don't have the guts to do that, so instead, lets throw stones at the employees of XYZ company because they didn't all get up and quit. Because that makes a whole lot of sense now doesn't it?

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by aloft

Kinda like everyone holding the GoJet pilot group responsible for the TSA MEC's ineptitude and lack of foresight, eh?

But I know, this is toooooootally different.

Geez, man. Give it a rest. Do you have any OTHER tricks, or is this it?

[ppragman]

Originally Posted by Maximillian_Jenius

Lol, you guys are dumb...

Velo is the dog in this video and you all are well...




..and, now that he finally got you right where he wanted you by herding you into making that statement. Watch how he quickly changes from a sheperd dog to:

You don't think I want him to flip out? The more he flips out, the more the hypocracy of his standpoint on this particular issue emerges.

[falconvalley]

Originally Posted by deadstick

Thanks for the response. The idea that this is the fault of Midex pilots because they didn't take the pay "cut" is not right. TH made them an offer (he knew) they couldn't accept. This goes back to to TH spinning situations to deflect the blame for his incompetence.

Exactly. But the RAH pilot group isn't responsible for it. It's between Midwest management and the Midwest pilot group. TH knew that he could find aircraft and pilots at another airline to take over so he started aggressive low balling. A side letter? It holds as much weight as its words. I'd love to see the MEH solve all their problems, but we're talking about an evolving battle here. Velo, you can't have a group of superhuman pilots that never loose a fight. I know that everyone wants a utopian society where everybody has an answer/side letter/perfect contract/everbody goes to college, but that's definitely not what we have. We have legal issues here. It's probably why theres no strike. Hello

It's been over 20 years and we're still arguing about this stuff. I don't think throwing the hammer down on pilots and regionals that just "walked in" is going to get everybody on the same page. That's not how it works. You want control? Get regulated. Get a national seniority list. I don't think that will happen. IMO, it is unrealistic to think that we will get that at this point. You won't get your 90's pay anytime soon. There's no money right now. But don't blame me for it. I'll feed my family regardless of where I work and don't think I'd ever walk across a line when there's other folks willing and able to do it. There's a reason this happened and nobody seems to be able to stop it.

Originally Posted by deadstick

On another point, here's a rumor from another online rumor mill...
"Heard a rumor that Republics E170 will be pulled off Midwest operations in April. Has anyone heard this too?"

I heard May. Can't substantiate it, though. This could very well be based on something that is happening over there in April/May. Are there any 717 leases up around that point? That could explain the rumor.

[Dan208B]

Originally Posted by Airdale

So my question is this...and its a serious one.

When do we start stoning and hanging the corporate wolves for the games they play with the lives of their employees?

When do we hold them responsible for the destruction of the Airline pilot careers?

When do we stop harrassing each other, and start attacking the people responsible?

I can't even explain how ridiculous and stupid this entire thread is...this entire discussion!! I just don't think I fit into the mold of the modern day Airline pilot. I just don't have the ability to SPIT in the face of my fellow airline pilots, or turn my head and walk in the other direction. I don't have the gutless sense of distaste for pilots working for an airline other than my own. Even if that airlines management does disgusting things. I don't have the lack of professionalism to deny any pilot a jumpseat, regardless of the company written on his badge.

This career is making me sick. The games these corporate CEO's play are immoral and they're unfair. But what is more sickening, is reading thread after thread of a group of pilots attacking and labeling another group of pilots. Grow up.

You don't like how CEO of XYZ operates the company, then write a letter to him. Give him a call. Send him an e-mail. Oh wait, you don't have the guts to do that, so instead, lets throw stones at the employees of XYZ company because they didn't all get up and quit. Because that makes a whole lot of sense now doesn't it?

Word.

[minitour]

Originally Posted by Velocipede

I guess that means you'll cross the picket line. Nice.

I could have bet the house you would post that. Predictable as usual.

Since we're playing hypothetical, I'll ask you: Have I exhausted all other options? From bottom feeder charter companies to Walmart and McDonalds? If so, then you freakin' betcha. Though, I know your statement is intended to attempt to paint me into a corner. Obviously, if there's another option then no I wouldn't. My bet is that someone will quote my post and leave that part out.

As ppragman says...

Originally Posted by ppragman

Whether there's a picket line there doesn't even come into thinking. My family comes first before everything. I don't have to worry about needing the money to feed my kids because I don't have any, but when I do, they are priority number one, and if they only way I can put food in their mouths is being a scab, then so ####ing be it.

When it comes to my family, there's nothing I won't do to put food on the table and provide for them. Nothing.

Can I make that any more clear?

-mini

[FlyChicaga]

Well said Airdale.

[deadstick]

Originally Posted by falconvalley

I heard May. Can't substantiate it, though. This could very well be based on something that is happening over there in April/May. Are there any 717 leases up around that point? That could explain the rumor.

I'm thinking THIS might support the rumor, and HERE is some competition for STL, MSP, and DEN.

RIP YX.


Update:
Not my words, but from the other thread...
"From what I heard, the ramp up in the AirTran operation has forced a resolution. The REP operation is being eliminated. All Midwest flights to be operated by DAL/NWA/DCI, with frequencies being increased to meet the competition.

Disposition of the MEH assets and/or personnel is unknown at this point."

[ChrisH]

Originally Posted by Airdale

So my question is this...and its a serious one.

When do we start stoning and hanging the corporate wolves for the games they play with the lives of their employees?

When do we hold them responsible for the destruction of the Airline pilot careers?

When do we stop harrassing each other, and start attacking the people responsible?

I can't even explain how ridiculous and stupid this entire thread is...this entire discussion!! I just don't think I fit into the mold of the modern day Airline pilot. I just don't have the ability to SPIT in the face of my fellow airline pilots, or turn my head and walk in the other direction. I don't have the gutless sense of distaste for pilots working for an airline other than my own. Even if that airlines management does disgusting things. I don't have the lack of professionalism to deny any pilot a jumpseat, regardless of the company written on his badge.

This career is making me sick. The games these corporate CEO's play are immoral and they're unfair. But what is more sickening, is reading thread after thread of a group of pilots attacking and labeling another group of pilots. Grow up.

You don't like how CEO of XYZ operates the company, then write a letter to him. Give him a call. Send him an e-mail. Oh wait, you don't have the guts to do that, so instead, lets throw stones at the employees of XYZ company because they didn't all get up and quit. Because that makes a whole lot of sense now doesn't it?

Well said. You know, there is one thing that is starting to deter me from pursuing this career, that is far outweighing the other typical issues of this career (pay, instability, etc), and that is the child like, and complete unprofessional attitude that many pilots seem to have. Someone said it earlier; it is just a job. The wars between pilot groups, the how dare you have flown for this airline, or attended this school, or taken this RJ course, or got hired with so few hours, blah, blah, stuff is getting old.

I guess I just don't have any airline pilots in my family, and thus have grown up around people in non flying jobs. In these non flying jobs, people go to work, work for whatever company offers them the better job/pay, or even just offers them a job, they go to work, and at the end of the day, go home, and that is it. They don't bash other companies, other companies employees, what school another employee went to, or whether or not that person had little experience when hired, etc. I just look at it as a job, and find all of the constant complaining, whining, wars, and bickering to be unprofessional, and childish. Only in the airline industry is someone criticized for taking an opportunity, when presented, even if they don't have tons of experience. Only in the airline industry is someone criticized for taking a job, with a company, if that company isn't union, or doesn't pay as well as another. Only in the airline industry is someone criticized for where they are trained, or if they go through a particular kind of training (RJ course, etc), because they know companies will give preference to that, etc, etc. It really just gets ridiculous, and old, after awhile.

I'll be honest, if I were a member of management in the middle of negotiations with a pilot group, and I read half of the stuff that is said on these various message boards, I'd have to bite my tongue during negotiations at the plea for better pay, etc., because we are "professionals". I know this doesn't apply to everybody, but for God sakes, come on! Go to work, do your job, when you are done, go home. If you don't like the job, find another one. It really is that simple. People just don't know how to let things go, and not stress over BS. Things are often more simpel that they seem.

[Clocks]

Originally Posted by ChrisH

Well said. You know, there is one thing that is starting to deter me from pursuing this career, that is far outweighing the other typical issues of this career (pay, instability, etc), and that is the child like, and complete unprofessional attitude that many pilots seem to have. Someone said it earlier; it is just a job. The wars between pilot groups, the how dare you have flown for this airline, or attended this school, or taken this RJ course, or got hired with so few hours, blah, blah, stuff is getting old.

I guess I just don't have any airline pilots in my family, and thus have grown up around people in non flying jobs. In these non flying jobs, people go to work, work for whatever company offers them the better job/pay, or even just offers them a job, they go to work, and at the end of the day, go home, and that is it. They don't bash other companies, other companies employees, what school another employee went to, or whether or not that person had little experience when hired, etc. I just look at it as a job, and find all of the constant complaining, whining, wars, and bickering to be unprofessional, and childish. Only in the airline industry is someone criticized for taking an opportunity, when presented, even if they don't have tons of experience. Only in the airline industry is someone criticized for taking a job, with a company, if that company isn't union, or doesn't pay as well as another. Only in the airline industry is someone criticized for where they are trained, or if they go through a particular kind of training (RJ course, etc), because they know companies will give preference to that, etc, etc. It really just gets ridiculous, and old, after awhile.

I'll be honest, if I were a member of management in the middle of negotiations with a pilot group, and I read half of the stuff that is said on these various message boards, I'd have to bite my tongue during negotiations at the plea for better pay, etc., because we are "professionals". I know this doesn't apply to everybody, but for God sakes, come on! Go to work, do your job, when you are done, go home. If you don't like the job, find another one. It really is that simple. People just don't know how to let things go, and not stress over BS. Things are often more simpel that they seem.

Its just the anonymity of the internet talking. Everyone is a big man, online. Everyone will lose their health insurance while a family member is depending on it to defend their principles, online. Everyone will put pilot-unity first, online. In the end it's all BS. Everyone votes in their own best interest and jacks over everyone else whether it's to strike, or pay, or workrules. Those who haven't just haven't had the opportunity yet, or symbolically vote "no" knowing it will pass and they'll be able to cash in on the quick upgrade time anyways at the expense of the other pilot group. If pilot unity was more than lip service seniority list integration would take 15 minutes. None of this "academic what would you do" crap means anything. Except for the most egregious act of literally crossing a picket line, you'd have to have bad luck to run across a single pilot who would say anything to another pilot's face. I've said it before...pilot unity is the illusion that is created when every pilot votes in what they feel is their (and their family's) personal best interest. It has nothing to do with sacrifice, or brotherhood.

You can't look at the people who pound their chests on internet forums as representative of pilots in real life. I worked at xjet for a year, but read the forums and I'd think it was a different company they were talking about. Based on how much chest pounding happened online about the concessions at xjet you'd think people would have happily gone to work at Home Depot, yet in 3 months less than 2 dozen pilots have left the company total. All talk. No action. Welcome to the internet.

All that said...I'm glad these discussions happen, but I'm glad if I ever wanted to I could delete these pilot forums from my bookmarks, show up to work, do my job, and as long as I don't punch my way through a picket line live in peace. Participation in these discussions is completely voluntary.