Republic May Now Be Worse Than You Know Who...

[TUCKnTRUCK]

Commissars and pin-striped bosses role the dice
Any way they fall guess who gets to pay the price.
Money green or proletarian gray, selling guns instead of food today.
So the kids they dance, they shake their bones
While the (B.B)'s throwing stones.

[MusketeerMan]

Originally Posted by SoCalAprch

Jtrain I would like to know how you think that when you guys started branded flying that you weren't competing with mainline routes. Just because they failed doesn't mean that its OK. Also saying it was ONT instead of LAX/SNA/BUR doesn't hold any weight.

Hey...Train's never been wrong on this website yet, don't expect to see it now.

Of course XJT branded was trying to compete with others..they didn't care if it was a major or a regional...they were trying to do what they could to keep those planes flying. It didn't bother me, heck, I wanted to fly for them out of ONT. At that point, they were an "airline" and airlines compete with each other. It amazes me that Train still tries to maneuver around this...especially with all his extreme intelligence.

[Velocipede]

Just can't think outside the box, can you Andy? Or perhaps you refuse to. Look, my career is almost over. Your's is just beginning. Hope you're happy capped out at $96 an hour. Because that's the future you're building yourself.

[falconvalley]

Originally Posted by Velocipede

Of course! You're all innocent. You put 300 pilots on the street, but it isn't your fault. You've got your upgrades. Your fuloughees are working. However, YOU undercut 300 good jobs by 30% thereby dooming yourselves to a top career pay rate of $96 an hour. Hope you can put your kids through college on that. I guess you'd better downgrade your dreams a little. Like 30%.

You all act like I'm saying RAH pilots should have unilaterally refused to fly these routes. Have you ever heard of sideletters to the contract? I guess the IBT doesn't do that, especially since they have a history of subverting ALPA for the benefit of the IBT.

It would be entirely legal for your Union to enact a sideletter that says your pilots will not fly subcontracted work from airlines currently undergoing contract negotiations and/or in disputes with their pilot groups.

You are not innocent. Your last line says it all. Your management knew exactly what you'd do...you'd grab all the Midwest flying you could like a two-bit hooker on a $20 bill.



Very true. And the RAH MEC has demonstrated their "solidarity" with their Midwest brothers by...



...walking the "informational" picket line one day and flying their routes the next. That's speaks for itself. Its called hypocrasy.



And you've just added your typical input to a debate...nothing.



Again, YOU need to look a bit deeper into the whole issue than "We have no choice to fly or get fired." As I said earlier, how about thinking outside the box and getting a sideletter to YOUR contract that says you NOT fly subcontracted work from pilots in disputes.

Oh, can't do that. It might affect your upgrade time to you REGIONAL airline Captain job. Hope it isn't the final step in your career, but if you keep eliminating Midwest caliber jobs, it very well might be.

That kind of talking works on my 4yo, but it doesn't work with a judge. Admit it, you realize that many Republic pilots could get fired for refusing and you would be just fine with it. There's something that you may or may not realize, however. Because the Earth is just filled with people with differing opinions, someone will do the flying. I wish I could pound my fist on the table and say "NO! NOT FAIR! I WANT WHAT I DESERVE NOW!"
But that is just a waste of time in business. If your tactics actually worked, everybody would use them and we wouldn't be talking about this. Your way of thinking is of a minority, Velo and you're not on the fast track to getting everybody on board with you. I agree that things need to be a ton different, but we're not gonna get anywhere pointing fingers and shaming each other. I'm not a psychologist, but I know enough about psychology to know why people act like that when their frustrated. It's when there's nothing they can do.

Just so you know, I'm on the street right now and you're not. I have a family, but I'm not about to steal anything that's not mine. I also don't want to screw my family by refusing to fly work that another pilot group refused to fly. They had a chance. The company is losing money hand over fist and they refused to take a pay cut. I don't care how evil management is there, they can't just make money appear and go into their pockets. I really hope they get the flying back and that things can work. I also hope to have a job soon, whether it's in an airline seat or something that flies and that I'm paid a good wage for it. I also hope my kids are happy and get what they want out of life, whether I can afford to pay for their college or not. I've been busting my ass for almost 15 YEARS so I can have a job that makes me happy and productive and I want some compensation in return for my hard work, so I'm not gonna let some person I've never met try to tell me that I'm not entitled to it. Fact: Midwest pilots refused concessions and lost the flying. The company will probably STILL go under even with us doing it. What does that tell you? That the pilot group themselves should be running the airline?!

[Velocipede]

Yep, fvalley. Me, me, me. Its the Midwest guy's fault.

Unbelievable.

[Dan208B]

Velocipede,
I don't disagree with your views on what's happening. I sure wish it wasn't the case. I was originally hired by Chautauqua, and was displaced the the 170. That wasn't a choice. Not only that, when I was hired, none of this midwest junk was going on. Again, it really is a shame. If things had not gone bad with midwest, they likely would have been on my list of places to go after RAH later on. The real problem though is that there wasn't any choice involved in it. I'm not on the right operating certificate to fly the midwest flights, but I never was given the oppurtunity to vote on it. Major red flags were raised when it was announced, but they soon dissapeared and now we fly the routes without due concern. My question, is what can I personally do about it? I would love to do something but I don't see any way I can help. Regardless of what I do we have enough losers here that, exactly as you said, only care about themselves and their own jobs right now. Also, just wanted to throw in there for the record, that not only am I in no way shape or form benefitting from the midwest flying, im still on furlough.

[SoCalAprch]

Originally Posted by Dan208B

Velocipede,
I don't disagree with your views on what's happening. I sure wish it wasn't the case. I was originally hired by Chautauqua, and was displaced the the 170. That wasn't a choice. Not only that, when I was hired, none of this midwest junk was going on. Again, it really is a shame. If things had not gone bad with midwest, they likely would have been on my list of places to go after RAH later on. The real problem though is that there wasn't any choice involved in it. I'm not on the right operating certificate to fly the midwest flights, but I never was given the oppurtunity to vote on it. Major red flags were raised when it was announced, but they soon dissapeared and now we fly the routes without due concern. My question, is what can I personally do about it? I would love to do something but I don't see any way I can help. Regardless of what I do we have enough losers here that, exactly as you said, only care about themselves and their own jobs right now. Also, just wanted to throw in there for the record, that not only am I in no way shape or form benefitting from the midwest flying, im still on furlough.

Turn down your recall when they call you back. Tell them that you don't want to be working for a company that is putting higher paid pilots out on the street.

I have yet to meet anyone that was excited about the midwest flying. I have a buddy who got furloughed and has two kids and a wife without a job. He got recalled and displaced into MCI to do the MidEx flying. He says he hates it and wishes that it wouldn't have to be like it is but he has his own problems (children and family) to tend to. There is nothing wrong with that. Doing what Velo expects the RAH guys to do would be like donating food to a shelter and letting your family starve. There are few things that are more important to me in life than preserving our profession but my families well being is one of them.

[Kingairer]

Originally Posted by Velocipede

And you've just added your typical input to a debate...nothing.

Its on your behalf, playing into a dellusional persons fantasy is harmful for that person. Carry on.

[WacoFan]

Probably a stupid remark/comment, but keep in mind - I'm trying to learn.

I understand Velo's displeasure with this situation, MY displeasure with it (I would rather fly Midwest as it was than RAH as it is), and the RAH pilots situation.

That said, it would seem that Scope is the biggest enemy of quality of life and pay in the majors. I also gather that the Legacies had HUGE contracts, pre-9-11 that were purchased with relaxing SCOPE clauses. This, and Frank Lorenzo proving that pilots would work for nothing in 1983 with CAL is what killed the profession in my view. Now, an effective jumpseat war and internet vendetta should probably be directed at pilots and carriers that gave away Scope for a couple bucks now. Seems to me that THEY were the ones that sold out the following generations for their own self interest. Pilots currently are reacting to the industry/business as left to them by the pilots and union tactics that came before.

Of course, I may be very wrong on this issue and if so I would apprciate someone saying "Hey, dooshbag, you are wrong and here is why". Thanks in advance.

[Socal321]

Originally Posted by Velocipede

Just can't think outside the box, can you Andy? Or perhaps you refuse to. Look, my career is almost over. Your's is just beginning. Hope you're happy capped out at $96 an hour. Because that's the future you're building yourself.

I don't think anybody has a choice, other than to learn Chinese or Arabic and fly the 777s there. The ERJ170 and the CRJ900/100000 type ratings will be more valuable than the 737 in this century.

[Socal321]

Originally Posted by WacoFan

Probably a stupid remark/comment, but keep in mind - I'm trying to learn.

I understand Velo's displeasure with this situation, MY displeasure with it (I would rather fly Midwest as it was than RAH as it is), and the RAH pilots situation.

That said, it would seem that Scope is the biggest enemy of quality of life and pay in the majors. I also gather that the Legacies had HUGE contracts, pre-9-11 that were purchased with relaxing SCOPE clauses. This, and Frank Lorenzo proving that pilots would work for nothing in 1983 with CAL is what killed the profession in my view. Now, an effective jumpseat war and internet vendetta should probably be directed at pilots and carriers that gave away Scope for a couple bucks now. Seems to me that THEY were the ones that sold out the following generations for their own self interest. Pilots currently are reacting to the industry/business as left to them by the pilots and union tactics that came before.

Of course, I may be very wrong on this issue and if so I would apprciate someone saying "Hey, dooshbag, you are wrong and here is why". Thanks in advance.

I think you're right, add in the fact of the nature of the airlines which is a cut-throat business, add in the fact that managment has become very good at exploiting the fact that pepole will fly for food, and add in the fact of the me me me mentality of our generation, it's the perfect storm.

[Dan208B]

Originally Posted by SoCalAprch

Turn down your recall when they call you back. Tell them that you don't want to be working for a company that is putting higher paid pilots out on the street.

I have yet to meet anyone that was excited about the midwest flying. I have a buddy who got furloughed and has two kids and a wife without a job. He got recalled and displaced into MCI to do the MidEx flying. He says he hates it and wishes that it wouldn't have to be like it is but he has his own problems (children and family) to tend to. There is nothing wrong with that. Doing what Velo expects the RAH guys to do would be like donating food to a shelter and letting your family starve. There are few things that are more important to me in life than preserving our profession but my families well being is one of them.

See that's the whole deal, I have no intention of turning down my recall. I don't think that type of thinking is the solution. All i'm trying to say is that there are a lot of folks on these forums that are quick to shoot down the entire RAH pilot group. And like you said, I have yet to meet anyone excited about the midwest flying. I 100% completely agree with you on the profession vs. family thing as well. I will do everything I can to help preserve our profession but you can't fault someone for feeding their family.

[deadstick]

Ok, this is crazy and extreme, but what if...

BB came to the MEC and said all 1-3 yr FO pay rates needed to be $10/hr and the CA rates would be capped at $40. If they didn't agree, then he would start selling aircraft and close the company? RAH was mixed up in the Medoff thing, or something. Keep in mind this is today's environment and there are no other jobs out there.

Would the RAH pilots agree to it or close the place down? If they agrred to it, wouldn't that lower the bar for all other regional contracts coming up in the near future?

[Velocipede]

Originally Posted by Dan208B

Velocipede,I don't disagree with your views...My question, is what can I personally do about it? I would love to do something but I don't see any way I can help. Regardless of what I do we have enough losers here that, exactly as you said, only care about themselves and their own jobs right now..

Well, as others have pointed out, nothing as an individual. However, its apparent to me that the RAH MEC did NOTHING except give lip service to how "upset" they were that 300 MEH pilots hit the street.

Talk is cheap.

Too bad the pilots didn't get together and insist that the MEC take some kind of concrete action such as writing a sideletter to prohibit the Company from subcontracting flying from Companies engaged in labor disputes.

I guess as long as it isn't your ox getting gored, everything is fabulous.

"We couldn't help it. It wasn't our decision. What could we do about it?"

I'm just waiting for "I had to feed my family." That's the first line you hear after a picket line is crossed.

[Velocipede]

Originally Posted by SoCalAprch

He says he hates it and wishes that it wouldn't have to be like it is but he has his own problems (children and family) to tend to. There is nothing wrong with that. Doing what Velo expects the RAH guys to do would be like donating food to a shelter and letting your family starve. There are few things that are more important to me in life than preserving our profession but my families well being is one of them.

There you go..."I had to feed my family."

[Velocipede]

Originally Posted by Socal321

I don't think anybody has a choice, other than to learn Chinese or Arabic and fly the 777s there. The ERJ170 and the CRJ900/100000 type ratings will be more valuable than the 737 in this century.

Hate to break it to you, slick, but English is the official language of aviation in ICAO.

[Velocipede]

Originally Posted by Dan208B

I will do everything I can to help preserve our profession but you can't fault someone for feeding their family.

Exhibit Two. "I had to feed my family."

That, my friend is a slippery slope.

[falconvalley]

Originally Posted by Velocipede

Yep, fvalley. Me, me, me. Its the Midwest guy's fault.

Unbelievable.

Believe it. And the sooner you snap out of your trance, the sooner you can accept a reality in this industry. It's business and as much as a union wants, it can't control everything a business does. We don't call the shots. We band together for fair treatment and acceptable compensation- WITHIN REASON and when the company can give it to them. As far as I'm concerned, if the Midwest pilots want their jobs back, they can have them. They were there first. It's not the Midwest pilots' fault we doing the flying, but it's their fault they didn't accept the concessions. I'm not going to claim to know what numbers can make the company float as long as possible, but they'd better work those numbers out. Sure, the concessions Midwest is asking of its pilots is rediculous when compared to what they're currently making. But, the company is trying to survive and when pay is in the top 2 to 3 of cost, you work with it. The company could fold whether or not somebody does that flying. The worst case scenario for the company right now is nobody doing the flying. So, Velo, you're asking the company to fail? You think everybody should grab their ball and go home at this point? I think that flying needs to be done and I hope the Midwest pilots get the best they can get and come back. The worst possible thing that could happen is everybody refuse, because those customers have PLENTY of other options. I gotta be the bad guy, Velo.

[SpiraMirabilis]

Everyone says that Velo is suggesting that all the RAH pilots stage an illegal work action. I'm not sure if that's how I read what he's saying. IMHO he's saying that the RAH MEC should have pursued a legal work action, or at least let their displeasure be felt in other ways.

A work action is not the only way to make Management squeal, you can rachet up contract compliance. Have a campaign where every single time the CBA is violated you file a GIR (which is how it should be anyway, but many small ones are never filed.) The grievance process is slow, but you can work harder on group grievances with expected large damages, etc.

In any event, while I don't fault the RAH pilots here I do agree that there was only a token and meaningless response from the RAH MEC about this issue. "We don't like it" basically.

Perhaps I shouldn't be the one to talk since MAG arguably helped put Aloha, a mainline carrier, out of business. (I do maintain that their fleet of 737-200s really put them out of business but nothing we did helped matters.)

[SpiraMirabilis]

Originally Posted by falconvalley

Believe it. And the sooner you snap out of your trance, the sooner you can accept a reality in this industry. It's business and as much as a union wants, it can't control everything a business does. We don't call the shots. We band together for fair treatment and acceptable compensation- WITHIN REASON and when the company can give it to them. As far as I'm concerned, if the Midwest pilots want their jobs back, they can have them. They were there first. It's not the Midwest pilots' fault we doing the flying, but it's their fault they didn't accept the concessions. I'm not going to claim to know what numbers can make the company float as long as possible, but they'd better work those numbers out. Sure, the concessions Midwest is asking of its pilots is rediculous when compared to what they're currently making. But, the company is trying to survive and when pay is in the top 2 to 3 of cost, you work with it. The company could fold whether or not somebody does that flying. The worst case scenario for the company right now is nobody doing the flying. So, Velo, you're asking the company to fail? You think everybody should grab their ball and go home at this point? I think that flying needs to be done and I hope the Midwest pilots get the best they can get and come back. The worst possible thing that could happen is everybody refuse, because those customers have PLENTY of other options. I gotta be the bad guy, Velo.

Concessions?! There is nothing to concede!! Midwest Airline's pay is already SIGNIFICENTLY less than every other 717 operator IN THE WORLD. Except maybe Turkmenistan Airlines. You can't get blood out of a radish! There is nothing more Midwest pilots can give!

[deadstick]

Originally Posted by falconvalley

.....They were there first. It's not the Midwest pilots' fault we doing the flying, but it's their fault they didn't accept the concessions. .....
Sure, the concessions Midwest is asking of its pilots is rediculous when compared to what they're currently making.....

Come on....

1) You have been on the receiving end of TH's bs and know that he's a snake. Now, what remained of Skyway is GONE. 60 some-odd people at HQ just got shown the door. The ramp goes back to Midwest. Since they had turned Skyway into a ground services company, and after RAH and Skywest have 100% of the flying, Midwest will be the ground services company. TPG doesn't need two.

2) Downgraded CAs (as FO's) would make $37.01 MAX!!! A 16 year 717 CA would make $83.53. If they HAD accepted those rates, they'd be cheaper than the RAH 170/5 rates. I guess they could have gone around underbidding RAH.

The way Timmy "runs" the company (into the ground) is to set-up others to take the fall for the bad things at the company. Skyway: why else would they have put themselves in a position to run out of crews before the April shutdown? They announced on 16 Jan.

"Sorry Mr. DOT Secretary (or stranded passenger), but we can no longer run these (money-losing EAS) routes because all of our pilots were selfish people and got other jobs before we closed."

"It's the pilots' and FA's fault that the company is imploding. Those greedy people can't live on $37/hr." When the media gets this, the public thinks they make $37/hr and are paid for a 40-hr work week.

He swore to the share holders that AAI was a bad deal in favor of best interest of the "company and the community." He then got $10M with the TPG/NWA deal -- that this has OBVIOSLY been in the best interest of the "company and the community." He threatened to move the Midwest HQ to KC until he got a sweet tax break from MKE and WI. He would have hosed the employees, but oh well. It could just as easily been KC's (or Indy's, or...?) Hometown Airline. The only loyalty was to the beloved Cookie (for those who don't know, Mrs. Timmy ran the company that had the contract for those damn cookies).

http://sendables.jibjab.com/view/3S8...WAUcgjntSPKMxW

[Airdale]

Too funny this place is.

Half of you are hypocrites, half of you have no clue what you're talking about and the other half don't even know who Republic is.

And what I would do to get a chance to meet Velo in person.

[falconvalley]

Originally Posted by deadstick

Come on....

1) You have been on the receiving end of TH's bs and know that he's a snake. Now, what remained of Skyway is GONE. 60 some-odd people at HQ just got shown the door. The ramp goes back to Midwest. Since they had turned Skyway into a ground services company, and after RAH and Skywest have 100% of the flying, Midwest will be the ground services company. TPG doesn't need two.

2) Downgraded CAs (as FO's) would make $37.01 MAX!!! A 16 year 717 CA would make $83.53. If they HAD accepted those rates, they'd be cheaper than the RAH 170/5 rates. I guess they could have gone around underbidding RAH.

The way Timmy "runs" the company (into the ground) is to set-up others to take the fall for the bad things at the company. Skyway: why else would they have put themselves in a position to run out of crews before the April shutdown? They announced on 16 Jan.

"Sorry Mr. DOT Secretary (or stranded passenger), but we can no longer run these (money-losing EAS) routes because all of our pilots were selfish people and got other jobs before we closed."

"It's the pilots' and FA's fault that the company is imploding. Those greedy people can't live on $37/hr." When the media gets this, the public thinks they make $37/hr and are paid for a 40-hr work week.

He swore to the share holders that AAI was a bad deal in favor of best interest of the "company and the community." He then got $10M with the TPG/NWA deal -- that this has OBVIOSLY been in the best interest of the "company and the community." He threatened to move the Midwest HQ to KC until he got a sweet tax break from MKE and WI. He would have hosed the employees, but oh well. It could just as easily been KC's (or Indy's, or...?) Hometown Airline. The only loyalty was to the beloved Cookie (for those who don't know, Mrs. Timmy ran the company that had the contract for those damn cookies).

http://sendables.jibjab.com/view/3S8...WAUcgjntSPKMxW

Hey, I'm not standing up for that crap, you know that. I'm just saying, the company may not be able to afford the current payscales and if they don't do something, they will sink much faster. If dumping your cargo means you make land and survive, you have a choice to make. Everybody's gonna have a different spin on it. Don't buy into the crap that just because they didn't accept the concessions, that the company's demise is their fault. That's not it at all. They made a business move. The company made a business move. Midwest is responsible for their negotiations and RAH is responsible for their negotiations. I don't call the shots for the company or the MEC, so it's not my fault that they are on the street. I hope the best for everybody, but I don't apologize for where I'm furloughed from or the fact that they are currently flying YX routes.

I'd much rather the routes be flown and the company operate, rather than just implode during a labor dispute (a strike would be different, because both sides have time to prepare and it would be completely wrong to get in the way). If Velo's logic were in force, we'd have a monopoly all around. One airline and one pilot group. No alternatives. That's not business. I know, it hurts. It hurts to know that this is how capitalism works, but this is how it works. The more rules you add, the less control you have over your job and your future. The higher your pay, the more the company spends on you. The more restrictions the company has on what they can do with your job, the less they can do to make the company float. Sorry, but at some point, something's gotta give in a declining market. Those guys need to get er done and they need to do it before it's too late. Like I said before, I hope the MEH pilots get as much as the company can afford.

[Doug Taylor]

Come on folks, work it out like professionals.

[ppragman]

Originally Posted by Velocipede

There you go..."I had to feed my family."

Originally Posted by Velocipede

Hate to break it to you, slick, but English is the official language of aviation in ICAO.

But what do they speak in the cockpit? Chinese crew, probably everything is going down in Chinese.

Originally Posted by Velocipede

Exhibit Two. "I had to feed my family."

That, my friend is a slippery slope.

My family > union vs. non-union, or scab vs. proto-scab debate. You're insane if you think anyone is thinking otherwise. Its just a job.