Republic May Now Be Worse Than You Know Who...

[Velocipede]

Originally Posted by WacoFan

That said, on this topic specifically, what should the RAH pilots do about this situation?

They could have, as a group of unionized pilots, refused to fly Midwest routes. They didn't. They licked their chops and figured, "Good. More lines of flying and Captain upgrades!" And they're lying if they tell you differently.

Originally Posted by jtrain609

My concern isn't with Republic eating Midwest, it's that Republic pay rates will replace Midwest pay rates.

That scares the living #### out of me.

A 12 year captain at Midwest makes $138 an hour, where a 12 year captain at Chataquatron makes $96 an hour.

The only thing that would be worse is if they were like Virgin pilots...flying Airbus' for $95 an hour.

Originally Posted by falconvalley

THAT WE CAN'T DO A THING ABOUT IT.

Sure you could, IF you had the balls to do it. See above. If the entire pilot group through your Union made it plain that you would not fly the trips, the Company wouldn't have been able to execute the contract. But, you didn't do that did you?

We all know why you didn't.

Originally Posted by Polar742

I'll say it again, Bedford is looking to be a major player with big jets. It is up to my former colleagues to obtain a contract which reflects their place in the industry.

And he's going to do it using RJ wages.

BTW, let me know the contract period where Alaska has been the golden standard for pay and workrules.

Never. Because until this round of contract talks, we were limited to pay formulas and arbitrated contracts. Without the ability to exercise self-help you can never become the industry leader.

You can never hope to make gains when there are Companies like RAH out there able to subcontract flying because they have a wage advantage. What the RAH guys don't realize is that by killing off good paying jobs like Midwest, they condemn themselves to a career capped at $96 an hour. I can pretty much guarantee you that Republic guys will not be well received at legacy carrier interview boards after this.

Originally Posted by wheelsup

Republic gets 190's to fly the Midwest Routes. You saw it here first.

No kidding, Nostradamus. Painted in Midwest colors.

[OldTownPilot]

Originally Posted by Velocipede

They could have, as a group of unionized pilots, refused to fly Midwest routes. They didn't. They licked their chops and figured, "Good. More lines of flying and Captain upgrades!" And they're lying if they tell you differently.


Sure you could, IF you had the balls to do it. See above. If the entire pilot group through your Union made it plain that you would not fly the trips, the Company wouldn't have been able to execute the contract. But, you didn't do that did you?

And that would have been an illegal work action under the RLA and could get the union leaders in jail.

[kellwolf]

How is Republic's contract on filling vacancies if no one bids them? Can they JM people into a vacancy to get it done? It's possible that no one bidding the airplane might not have even solved the problem. My beef here is with RAH's management, not the pilots. What do you want them to do? Quit in protest? If PCL got 737s tomorrow, I wouldn't quit. I also wouldn't voluntarily bid the airplane, and I wouldn't vote "yes" on a contract with less than major level pay rates for the airplane. That's about all I can expect the RAH pilots to do. Now, if someone goes to RAH saying "Ooh, shiny! I wanna fly the 190 or whatever they replace the 717 with," then I've got a beef with them. But to expect pilots to do something that's not possible is just, well, unrealistic.

I'm with Polar. Let's see what a) happens in general and b) what their next contract brings. If they get 190s or similiar and don't go with a major level pay scale, then I'd say the toilet flush just accelerated.

[SIUAv8r]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

How is Republic's contract on filling vacancies if no one bids them? Can they JM people into a vacancy to get it done? It's possible that no one bidding the airplane might not have even solved the problem.

If nobody bid for the MCI base that they opened, they could have had an involuntary displacement in order to fill the spots.

However, they are even running Midwest trips out of other Republic bases, such as DCA, so even the guys that didn't bid for it are doing some of the flying, possibly not by choice though.

[SIUAv8r]

Originally Posted by Velocipede

I can pretty much guarantee you that Republic guys will not be well received at legacy carrier interview boards after this.

May I ask, will we be received on your jumpseat?

[Clocks]

Whether you agree or not, it's fun to read Velo on topics like this. But I have to ask, how many illegal job actions has he participated in at his employers?

[WacoFan]

Originally Posted by Velocipede

They could have, as a group of unionized pilots, refused to fly Midwest routes. They didn't. They licked their chops and figured, "Good. More lines of flying and Captain upgrades!" And they're lying if they tell you differently.

.

What union are they with (RAH)?

Also, if this is legal, then it does answer the one question I was wondering about regarding your take on this matter - namely, what can the RAH pilots do.

Now, has there ever been a situation like this where the pilot group has refused the work? Didn't the NWA pilots do something in sympathy with the mechanics strike, or did they let those guys twist in the wind? The only thing I can think of is the EAL strike, where the pilots honored the IAM's picket line.

Thanks for the answers - as I said, I have little knowledge of these matters, so this is excellent learning for me.

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by SIUAv8r

If nobody bid for the MCI base that they opened, they could have had an involuntary displacement in order to fill the spots.

However, they are even running Midwest trips out of other Republic bases, such as DCA, so even the guys that didn't bid for it are doing some of the flying, possibly not by choice though.

Same with us and the -900. If no one bid it, company was already getting the displacement gun ready. As it is, they want us all cross-trained on the -900 anyway. The only thing stopping that is that it's technically considered another aircraft type under our current contract.

[WacoFan]

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

No. Not at all.

Polar can give you a much better history lesson than I can though so I'll let him do it.

Just to get started though, take a look at Mid Atlantic, and then do some research on "sale of assets" vs. "change in control". Also take a look at AA's scope clause (oh, funny, we are back to the GoJet issue).

Excellent - looking forward to the lesson. I knew there was a sale somewhere, and I thought that the J-4-J also factored in somehow. Will be good to learn the real story. Thanks.

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by WacoFan

What union are they with (RAH)?

IBT...

International Brotherhood of Truckdrivers. . .wait. . .Teamsters. Sorry

Originally Posted by kellwolf

Same with us and the -900. If no one bid it, company was already getting the displacement gun ready. As it is, they want us all cross-trained on the -900 anyway. The only thing stopping that is that it's technically considered another aircraft type under our current contract.

How would you feel if they managed to get you guys dual qualified?

Personally I would have loved it if our union leadership here had the balls to renegotiate seperate aircraft types for the 700 and 900 since we're coming to the negotiation table early for the company on PBS.

You want PBS? We want seperate lists for each airframe. Three schedules to maintain, three reserves to maintain, three. . .well. . .everything! Might help mitigate any further furloughs. Just a thought.

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by Polar742

So if RAH pilot's next contract reflected their status in the industry, would that rectify the problem? I'd say so.

I could get on board with that, but will it happen? It's much harder to jack up the house than it is take more flying for the same pay ya know?

[SIUAv8r]

I hope we can get a great contract. It'll be a no vote from me and a lot of people if there aren't a few key things that are improved upon. Bedford's layin' on the doom and gloom pretty thick right now.

[surreal1221]

Everyone is. It's the perfect storm to scare your employees. Darn management terrorists.

[SIUAv8r]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

Everyone is. It's the perfect storm to scare your employees. Darn management terrorists.

yup

[deadstick]

One and the same....




Sorry, Cookie.

This is where the blame rests, folks.

[MQAAord]

Originally Posted by OldTownPilot

And that would have been an illegal work action under the RLA and could get the union leaders in jail.

Exactly.

I do not see how that would be a legal job action to take.

[meritflyer]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

If this turns out to not be a rumot it's going to be really, really, really, really bad for all of us. A regional eating a national carrier? Rly?

Broseph,

Maybe you forgot about the regional airline we used to fly for that competed with mainline?

[MusketeerMan]

Wow...sans the G.O.P. on this forum, most everybody gets it. If something is to happen, it'll definitely now happen before our contract is completed. There are 3 remaining issues to be hammered out on the contract and one happens to be pay...which greatly benefits us, as I see it if something else is in the works.

It's true about the Midwest trips; they're run out of MCI, CMH, DCA & PIT. I'm CMH based and have been lucky enough to only do 2 Midwest day trips and have been able to drop/trade any others away.

[zmiller4]

Originally Posted by meritflyer

Broseph,

My new favorite word.

[MusketeerMan]

Originally Posted by zmiller4

My new favorite word.

Merit killed me with that...hilarious.

[Velocipede]

It is most certainly NOT an illegal job action. A job action presupposes you are refusing to fly to improve your contract. This would merely be the pilots stating, as a group, they would not fly contracted Midwest routes. They would not be refusing this flying to improve their working agreement.

The bottom line is they didn't and are now enjoying increased flying, increased upgrades at the expense of Midwest pilots who are on the streets. If the Midwest pilots had been on strike, RAH pilots would be nothing more than scabs.

Luckily for RAH pilots, that was not the case. I leave it to each of you to decide exactly how much difference there is between these scenarios.

[BobDDuck]

Originally Posted by Velocipede

It is most certainly NOT an illegal job action. A job action presupposes you are refusing to fly to improve your contract. This would merely be the pilots stating, as a group, they would not fly contracted Midwest routes. They would not be refusing this flying to improve their working agreement.

I dunno Velo, you may want to check with your Contact Administrator. I'm pretty certain a Union telling their pilots to refuse to fly a set of routes that are not currently struck, or (thanks to the new United injunction) member pilots telling others not to fly some routes would be considered an illegal job action.

[SIUAv8r]

Originally Posted by Velocipede

If the Midwest pilots had been on strike, RAH pilots would be nothing more than scabs.

Luckily for RAH pilots, that was not the case. I leave it to each of you to decide exactly how much difference there is between these scenarios.

Lucky for you, the sentiment among our pilot group is that had Midwest been on strike, we most certainly would have NOT flown these routes!

[sorrygottarunway]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

I guess I should also clarify myself.

My concern isn't with Republic eating Midwest, it's that Republic pay rates will replace Midwest pay rates.

That scares the living #### out of me.

A 12 year captain at Midwest makes $138 an hour, where a 12 year captain at Chataquatron makes $96 an hour.

Maybe it's just another lap in the race to the bottom, but in my mind it's a giant scam. The downward pressure that capitalist markets create on wages will turn out to be it's destruction. This will happen two fold, first because workers won't be able to afford the goods they create, and second because people will eventually riot because they're paid less and less (I'm obviously expanding this to beyond aviation at this point).

Kinda what happened when Crossair bought Swissair... Management obstacles everywhere!

[falconvalley]

Velo has an EXCELLENT working knowledge of union tactics. I would picket with the man in a second. But he types like he hasn't a clue about current legal issues. What I don't understand is why he seems to think that all this adds up to Repbulic pride > or = Midwest demise. Does anyone actually think that the situation is good? It's all very sad to most of everybody. Unfortunately, if I got called back, I couldn't just refuse the flying. It doesn't work that way. See, there are judges that decide whether a job action is legal. Arbitration has already ruled in favor of Midwest. You think Republic pilots striking the work would actually help? Best case, neither group would fly the work and the airline would lose any chance it had to survive, even if we COULD find a judge to rule in our favor (and that's not likely). Velo talks like we knew this was happening and had a chance to refuse it. We didn't. Our union didn't. It was thrown at us. Our management has a clue.

You wanna know what companies were among the others in the ALPA organized job fair I attended before Skyway shut down? Republic and SkyWest. Guess where most of the lower experienced folks went. Yup, and a ton of higher time captains aimed at AirTran. I think Compass was the only ALPA carrier that got a countable share. Velo uses facts such as these as talking points. I'd like to point out that ALPA actually organized the job fair. I know what you're thinking, too. A MEC is only as good as its people. Well, let's consider the entire ALPA organization for a moment (or any org for that matter). The ENTIRE ALPA organization and its members have not been able to stop the gradual errosion of the unionized profession over the last 9 years. What does that tell you? Are we still talking about an organization only being as good as its people? It doesn't matter in IMO. What I see is a minority of folks who want things a certain way and currently do not have the ability to change what is happening. Whether you're talking about a non-union pilot group or a unionized pilot group, things are not good right now. If you think that this is easily solved by getting EVERYBODY in the same union and getting everybody to scream for the same things, think again. Not only is it not going to happen, even if it did we would still destroy the airline industry as we know it.

Anybody familiar of a scenario where an industry was void of undercutters and errosion of the profession? Can anyone mention some examples for us to use?