ASA management endorses GoJet

[Velocipede]

Originally Posted by aloft

That's certainly one version of the fable. The more accurate version is "subsidiary created to secure additional business that conflicts with another customer's contract". But we're all free to believe what we choose, I guess.

And if you believe your "version" you're denying the reality. And the reality is, as evidenced by this thread origination point, that GoJet was created for the express purpose of subverting an ALPA contract.

Originally Posted by PCL_128

You will have to resign from ASA in order to be hired by GoJets, therefore you will lose your return rights to ASA. More information to follow. So for the "privilege" of getting blacklisted for working at a pseudo-scab operation, you have to resign your seniority rights at a real union airline. Gee, what a deal!

More evidence that the goal at GoJet is to reduce the number of ALPA pilots and, by extension continue to let the TSA contract "wither on the vine."

Originally Posted by wheelsup

Gojets management is directly undermining the seniority list at TSA to hire first year pay pilots.

They know what they are doing, we know what they are doing, everyone knows it but unfortunately ALPA lost the lawsuit. TSA pilots really got the shaft.

Thereby reducing their labor costs. Alter-ego operations are worse than outsourcing flying because they destroy Union jobs under the same corporate aegis.

Originally Posted by zmiller4

For what it's worth, the only Gojet jumpseater I've seen at Skywest got kicked off by the captain. And that's at my non-union "pseudo-scab" airline.

There are plenty of guys who would prefer there be a union on the property at SkyWest. Looks like your flying partner was one of them.

Originally Posted by chris

I thought you don't care about regional issues??

Alter-ego airlines and outsourcing go way beyond "regional issues." Both these practices can and will have widespread implications for ALL airline pilots in the future if they aren't stopped.

[ross9238]

Disclaimer: Not a contributing member to each and every thread so please see this as just an opinion - Not trying to ruffle anyone's feathers.

I don't know what SH's intentions were when he tried to get the furloughed pilots a job with the other carrier but to know that at least he tried is of some value. I would think that the pilots would not take that offer due to the fact that they will lose seniority at ASA or whatever else that might be guiding their choice.

Anyway, I see that this thread (as like most others have) become an ALPA vs. everyone else battle. I would have to say that if a captain has the need to see my union card among my other credentials, then its probably better for me to get off the aircraft and find another ride. I am part of ALPA and do see the benefits of a unionized airline but have a hard time agreeing to the fact that management is out to screw you each and every time.

[SpiraMirabilis]

This is not ALPA vs Everyone else. This is scumbags vs Everyone else.

I would be as angry if TSA was Teamsters or something else. GoJets was made specifically to screw them over, exactly like Freedom Airlines was years ago.

[Velocipede]

Ross,

If you're an ALPA member, I suggest you go to the website and read Section 115 of the ALPA Administration manual for comprehension. You'll find 3 different areas where the policy encourages Captains to require Union cards for jumpseat access and priority of assignment.

However, if you're like 99% of ALPA pilots you are probably unaware that the ALPA Admin manual even exists.

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by SpiraMirabilis

This is not ALPA vs Everyone else. This is scumbags vs Everyone else.

I would be as angry if TSA was Teamsters or something else. GoJets was made specifically to screw them over, exactly like Freedom Airlines was years ago.

Pretty much. We've seen Skywest and Republic Holdings guys fall in the same line as the rest of us on this one. Neither of them are ALPA. Definitely not "ALPA vs Everyone else."

[ross9238]

Velo,

I understand that you or any other captain would be within their rights by the "ALPA manual" to request this and exercise the authority to grant a jumpseat or a ride in the back. I'm a commuter and do use my jumpseat privileges extensively and as such, if the captain required that of me, I would just thank them for the chance but would let myself off the airplane and catch another flight. Thanks for the insight into the ALPA manual and you could count me among the percentage that haven't read it nor had any clue that such a thing existed.

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by ross9238

Velo,

I understand that you or any other captain would be within their rights by the "ALPA manual" to request this and exercise the authority to grant a jumpseat or a ride in the back. I'm a commuter and do use my jumpseat privileges extensively and as such, if the captain required that of me, I would just thank them for the chance but would let myself off the airplane and catch another flight. Thanks for the insight into the ALPA manual and you could count me among the percentage that haven't read it nor had any clue that such a thing existed.

So just so I have this right.

You're fine using Union negotiated benefits, but not okay with an ALPA Captain exercising his/her rights to request to see a Union card?

If that's the case...very interesting indeed.

[Velocipede]

I don't get it either, surreal. Unless he doesn't have one.

[surreal1221]

Just makes me go Aroo!?

Yeah, probably would be best to just turn around and walk on off the Captain's ship without even saying another word.

[joliet]

Because it says somewhere in an obscure section of a book that you should ask for an ALPA card to decide whether or not to deny boarding?

You're going to deny pilots from places like American, and Southwest a ride?



This is similar to not being allowed to eat shellfish because it says so somewhere in the back of the Bible.

[SpiraMirabilis]

It says UNION card, not ALPA UNION card and is not unreasonable at all.

For example: Someone asks for a ride, you know their airline is agency shop so you ask to see their union card to further ID them. They should have one assuming they're a member in good standing, and if they are not a member in good standing -- why not? I can think of a few reasons.

[joliet]

Originally Posted by SpiraMirabilis

It says UNION card, not ALPA UNION card and is not unreasonable at all.

For example: Someone asks for a ride, you know their airline is agency shop so you ask to see their union card to further ID them. They should have one assuming they're a member in good standing, and if they are not a member in good standing -- why not? I can think of a few reasons.

Ok............


Skywest, Allegiant, Jet Blue....... those are some of the more prominent names.

[aloft]

Originally Posted by PCL_128

That was produced by the TSA MEC.......SEVERAL YEARS AGO!!!!! You aren't too good at the reading for comprehension, are you?

Um, the TSA MEC *is* ALPA.

Originally Posted by PCL_128

You are still ignoring the successorship language. You can pretend it isn't there if it makes you feel better, but it won't change reality.

No, I'm just ignoring you.

Originally Posted by wheelsup

I would suggest that by TSA management lowballing their offer to "let" TSA pilots in on the action at Gojets - that was a form of union busting. While Gojet was created to get around scope issues it was also used to put downward pressure on pilot wages...ie union busting.

The conspiracy theorist in me says while he might've offered to have TSA pilots fly those planes he did so at such a level that he knew they would reject it. He can now say "Hey I tried!" and walk away feeling good.

If that was indeed the case, Kanodia failed miserably, judging by the fact that the GoJet pilots are a) unionized, b) paid more than the TSA pilots, and c) have better job security due to not having AMR's restrictive scope around their neck.

Originally Posted by Velocipede

And if you believe your "version" you're denying the reality. And the reality is, as evidenced by this thread origination point, that GoJet was created for the express purpose of subverting an ALPA contract.

Don't look outside your window man, the black helicopters are out there and have come to get you.

Seriously, all you conspiracy theorists are off your collective rockers. Common sense dictates that the simplest explanation is usually the correct one, yet you guys are so blinded by your own (or should I say ALPA's) agenda that you'd bypass the most obvious explanation in favor of one that suits your own interests. Kanodia is a businessman who in all likelihood has one motivation: money, which dictates that the simplest explanation behind the creation of GoJet was getting his foot in the door with UAL. The TSA MEC chose to play chicken with him, believing that they had the ability to burn the GoJet house down before it was even built, had their day in court and lost.

All you guys who play jumpseat games based on this are simply showing your patent disrespect for the rule of law in this country, which is by far the most unpatriotic act I can imagine.

Originally Posted by Velocipede

More evidence that the goal at GoJet is to reduce the number of ALPA pilots and, by extension continue to let the TSA contract "wither on the vine."

Oh please. Most airlines require you to resign your seniority number at your previous gig -- which is really only meaningful if your previous employer honors it. ASA could just as easily choose to ignore resignation letters from any of their furloughed guys and offer a recall when the time came anyway. Not that ASA cares, they'd rather replace furloughed guys with guys on first year pay anyway--but they're not the "evil" ones, nooooo.

Originally Posted by Velocipede

Thereby reducing their labor costs. Alter-ego operations are worse than outsourcing flying because they destroy Union jobs under the same corporate aegis.

Again, if destroying union jobs was Kanodia's intent, he failed miserably as the GoJet pilot group is unionized--which I'm sure you'll discount out-of-hand because they're not part of YOUR union (which reveals your bias and discredits your argument).

Originally Posted by surreal1221

So just so I have this right.

You're fine using Union negotiated benefits, but not okay with an ALPA Captain exercising his/her rights to request to see a Union card?

If jumpseating is a "union negotiated benefit", how is it that all non-unionized pilot groups have it too?

[Nick]

Originally Posted by aloft

If jumpseating is a "union negotiated benefit", how is it that all non-unionized pilot groups have it too?

The union negotiated the concept of being able to use the jumpseat for what it is now used for.

[BobDDuck]

Aloft, just a friendly heads up...

When you don't know what you are talking about it might be best not to talk at all.

There are so many inaccuracies in your last post that you may seriously want to think about trying again.

[Trip7]

Originally Posted by PCL_128

Another email forwarded by a buddy at ASA:</p>

I have been working to set up the process for interviews at GoJets. There is a class on February 5 that they are filling and have set aside some of the slots for ASA pilots and furloughed United pilots. I am trying to get them to come to Atlanta for interviews next week or no later than the week after. If I am unable then you will have to travel to STL for an interview. There will not be a sim ride but rather just a face to face interview. We will move your work days around for those that wish to attend an interview.

Classes will be ongoing every month for now (probably 8 more). Their current fleet plan is to add additional CRJ700s in the United Express system. Although they were hiring Captains off the street late last year, the classes planned for this year are for First Officer positions.

You will have to resign from ASA in order to be hired by GoJets, therefore you will lose your return rights to ASA. More information to follow.
Scott

So for the &quot;privilege&quot; of getting blacklisted for working at a pseudo-scab operation, you have to resign your seniority rights at a real union airline. Gee, what a deal!

Exactly right Todd. Btw Steve from your airline was on the jumpseat on my flight this morning from portland, me. He said you're the one that set up ALPA coming to Airtran. Good job bro!

[Velocipede]

Originally Posted by joliet

You're going to deny pilots from places like American, and Southwest a ride?

Umm...they're unionized.

Originally Posted by joliet

...Allegiant, Jet Blue....... those are some of the more prominent names.

You forgot Virgin. And the answer to your question is YES.

[quote=aloft;1065617All you guys who play jumpseat games based on this are simply showing your patent disrespect for the rule of law in this country, which is by far the most unpatriotic act I can imagine.[/quote]

What does U.S. law have to say about jumpseat access? I'm a bit fuzzy on this concept.

Not that ASA cares, they'd rather replace furloughed guys with guys on first year pay anyway--but they're not the "evil" ones, nooooo.

And that's the goal from the Corporation's viewpoint isn't it...replace high pay scale pilots from BOTH ASA and GoJet with new hires at new hire rates. So, you may have nailed the concept even though you were trying to be sarcastic. Well done. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut occasionally.

If jumpseating is a "union negotiated benefit", how is it that all non-unionized pilot groups have it too?

Because those airlines recognize its a cheap way to move their flight crews around in addition to getting them to work. You may not realize it, but for YEARS Delta pilots couldn't even ride their OWN jumpseat, much less reciprocate. They had to make contract concessions to DAL in order to get access to DAL jumpseats.

[ross9238]

Surreal and Velo,

Like I said in my first statement, I don't mean to ruffle any of your feathers with my comment. I'm a union member in good standing, paying my dues just like you and do have my membership card easily accessible if need be. Like I said before, this is my opinion and as such, I'm not here to convince anyone here otherwise. To me, if a captain wanted to see that, it would be petty and I've had my share of profiling. I would from my past experiences, would take that as the captain really not wanting to give me a ride. Hence, I would just walk of the aircraft. Again, I'm not saying that they should not be allowed to exercise their authority granted to them by the ALPA manual. It would seem petty that's all, if you know the airline that he/she works for is unionized.

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by aloft

Oh please. Most airlines require you to resign your seniority number at your previous gig -- which is really only meaningful if your previous employer honors it.

Really? Got info to back that up, 'cause I know a lot of furloughed major guys that were flying at regionals before they got recalled.....

[Doug Taylor]

I wouldn't say most. We had a lot of guys 'camping out' at some majors and a variety of regionals awaiting recall.

[joliet]

Originally Posted by Velocipede

Umm...they're unionized.



You forgot Virgin. And the answer to your question is YES.



What does U.S. law have to say about jumpseat access? I'm a bit fuzzy on this concept.



And that's the goal from the Corporation's viewpoint isn't it...replace high pay scale pilots from BOTH ASA and GoJet with new hires at new hire rates. So, you may have nailed the concept even though you were trying to be sarcastic. Well done. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut occasionally.



Because those airlines recognize its a cheap way to move their flight crews around in addition to getting them to work. You may not realize it, but for YEARS Delta pilots couldn't even ride their OWN jumpseat, much less reciprocate. They had to make contract concessions to DAL in order to get access to DAL jumpseats.

I'm CURIOUS. Why did you leave out Skywest?

Originally Posted by joliet

Ok............


Skywest, Allegiant, Jet Blue....... those are some of the more prominent names.

[SpiraMirabilis]

Velo has a problem with Allegiant and JetBlue itself. Allegiant flies a narrowbody for little more than regional payrates, which is about 40% less than what Alaska pays or about 60-65% less than what Southwest pays.

[joliet]

Originally Posted by SpiraMirabilis

Velo has a problem with Allegiant and JetBlue itself. Allegiant flies a narrowbody for little more than regional payrates, which is about 40% less than what Alaska pays or about 60-65% less than what Southwest pays.

Oh, so he ISN'T an equal opportunity jumpseat war fire starter, and denier?

I doubt he has ever denied anyone.

[Doug Taylor]

Come on folks, learn when to give it a rest for a bit.

[JumpWake]

Happened catch a glimpse of the latest GJ class today in STL. The guy teaching our recurrent also happened to see the stack of resumes that goes along with that class. It's a mix actually. The average range is 5-9k hr guys, some young guys, but also there are one or two furloughed TSA FOs in there, too. Also heard from a union rep today that GJ has canceled or converted to options for 15 -700 deliveries this year. If that's true, I'm sure it'll affect their hiring plans this year.

I wasn't the only one that noticed that there are more GJ badges walking around that place now than TS badges. They're also expanding their offices and pushing TSA guys to 'new' digs elsewhere in the building. Really kinda sad yet amazingly disgusting at the same time.