ASA management endorses GoJet

[JEP]

Originally Posted by aloft

I'm just saying, the act of agreeing to disagree requires the sort of maturity not common among anonymous internet forums. Maybe it's true of the airline industry as a whole, I dunno--but around here at least, dissenting viewpoints are not tolerated much.

I would propose that for many who have taken the time, this is hardly an anonymous internet forum.

[aloft]

And that's true for what percentage of the JC user base? 0.25%, if that?

[Doug Taylor]

It's not anonymous at all, that's the curse of communicating on the internet.

I think if we were a collection of people that sat in basements and had no level of interaction, perhaps, but there are probably only about perhaps 3 degrees of separation between any two of us. If you know a single person on the forum in real life, the anonymity is gone.

That's why it's tremendously important for us all to realize that it's not the message as much as it is the delivery.

Some very salient and valid points get buried under piss poor attitudes and inability of the messenger to communicate appropriately on the internet.

I'm guilty as the next guy and it's something I think about before I hit the 'send' button. I've got about a 3:1 ratio between posts I start and posts that I actually mash the 'send' button on and I think it's beneficial.

Misplaced bravado and toughness comes across as pompousness.

Inarticulate persistence comes across as mind-numbing whips at a dead horse or 'slaying the slain'.

Delivery. Delivery. Delivery.

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by aloft

If there's one thing I've learned in the last 7-8 months, it's that bridges built on JC or via the internet generally are tenuous at best. If you go back before any of the GoJet threads I first started commenting on, I *had* built all kinds of bridges with folks here over the course of the previous seven years. I was a fairly widely respected guy. And all it took was one unpopular opinion, one dissenting viewpoint from the "commonly accepted" version of the story, to destroy those bridges (and in at least one case, inspire a prominent JC'er to actively seek to screw me professionally), all because of a refusal to drink the TSA ALPA kool-aid. In particular, I remember Kellwolf saying "I've lost a lot of respect for aloft because of this"--which to me is simply pathetic. If you can't agree to disagree with someone without losing respect held previously for them, I submit it is you who has the problem, not them. And it simply goes to show that these "virtual" bridges aren't worth what you might think.

You're delusional if you actually believe all that.

You've dug your own grave. I know you think the world is out to get you, but you've buried yourself here after repeated attempts to reach out to you. Grow up, learn some personal responsibility and move on.

[Doug Taylor]

Anyone can redeem themselves. Anyone. Hell, if I can do it, anyone can do it!

Personally, I'd rather share the cockpit or an adult beverage with a person who I can gracefully disagree with rather than a person who shares my views who parrots them out like a crazed chimpanzee flinging steamy hot poo at bystanders.

Something to think about.

[JEP]

Originally Posted by aloft

And that's true for what percentage of the JC user base? 0.25%, if that?

Six Degrees of Separation......


It's not just a movie. Seriously!

I realize it is not aviation related, but it is a direct result of JC. I had been trying to get an interview at a Fortune 500 bank here in Minny for the longest time but to no avail. I noticed through another avenue that Mr. RantsInYour pants was a networking contact of a higher up in the HR department at the said bank.

One email and one phone call later I was in contact with the HR individual and a week later had the interview. Did not end up working there, but were it not for JC I would never had been there in the 1st place.

[SFCC/UND]

Originally Posted by Velocipede

You know, you really don't get it. Not surprising considering you have NO airline experience. Remember Abe Lincoln's advice: "It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt."

Why should I have experience? Any person can see that it will go downhill after the first denied jump seat. Let me paint a scenario, if a pilot is trying to jump seat on a different airline and gets denied because of the company he works for, do you think he going to be very happy? If he tries to go on another airline, but gets denied, do you think he will be any happier? I'm sure he might or might not return the favor.

Originally Posted by jtrain609

Have you logged 0.1 hours in the right seat of a 121 operation yet?

Oh yes your knowledge of part 121 is so much greater than mine, flying for only less than a year and then got furloughed. I'm sorry, but what I am saying doesn't require any part 121 experience. All I have to do is listen to you guys and I can see perfectly clear what it's like.

[jtrain609]

Righto, kid.

[SFCC/UND]

touche

[FlyChicaga]

You know, I do agree somewhat with what aloft is saying. I don't necessarily agree with him 100% on the GoJets issue, however. I think the reason he is met with such disdain is because of how he presents the message. Strangely enough, two or three of the largest advocates against GoJets also present themselves as condescending, with terrible attitudes. The problem is that they seem to be on the "right" side of this convoluted argument, therefore for some strange reason get a pass. Frankly aloft, you're an #######. But you aren't the only #######, so I don't understand why you get all the flak.

This thread has throughouly soured me to this entire message forum. I personally know Scott Hall, and some individuals here have made broad accusations about his intentions without any basis in fact. PCL_128 called him out by name, and I doubt he's ever met the man. The fact is I would not have had so much success in my career without the help of Scott. He is the one who hired me as an intern, then hired me as a pilot, then helped me make the decision to leave his company to move on to my current employer. I can't say I've always agreed with everything he has done, or all of his viewpoints, but I do respect the man. I highly doubt he has orchestrated a furlough of 80 pilots at ASA to send them to the "evil GoJets empire" in an attempt to destroy ALPA. That's a lot to accomplish from a position as a System CP at a regional airline.

I am absolutely astounded that some posters here have been allowed to take this great resource (as in JetCareers) for developing well-rounded professional pilots and morphed it into an resource for developing anti-management union pilots. We fight tooth and nail to get respect as professional white-collar workers, yet constantly act like blue-collar trade unionists. You won't see doctors or lawyers fighting others in their field the way we fight each other as pilots. Instead, white-collar workers study, practice, and develop themselves professionally to make themselves stand out above the crowd. Ask yourselves, how much lately have you gotten from this board in terms of developing your techincal knowledge base, or learned flying skills that could help you out on the line someday? How much knowledge about swept-wing flying operations have you obtained from the numerous professionals with thousands of hours of heavy-jet time that we have here?

Velocepiede, I'm going to call you out directly. I cannot recall one time in the many months you have been here on JetCareers that you have helped me learn anything about flying from your broad experience in both military and civilian aviation. I can recall many times you have told me about the ALPA Admin manual, Virgin/JetBlue/Allegiant jumpseat issues, and of course the time you told me I don't know squat about the B737 engine and "rotor burst." But never have you helped me learn anything worthwhile that I can take as a young Captain and use out on the line. Sure, I can take the things you've taught me about jumpseating and use them on the one flight per one hundred flights that I get a non-union jumpseater. But what about the two hundred hours of flying time that I'll be commanding an airplane with 50 or more other people on board in those one hundred flights? What can you pass down to me so I can use then? Maybe I've just missed it... If I have, please point me in the right direction so I can read it.

While I do think it is important we educated young professional pilots on the ails of this career, we need to redirect our focus to what is important: Developing educated professionals prepared for what we face out there in this harsh flying environment. Not trade unionists, but rather true professionals in every sense of the word. As long as this board keeps trodding down the path to become a recourse for teaching pilots it's just fine to treat each other like crap for the "greater good," then I won't participate. If this board wants to head back towards its intended purpose of helping pilots obtain their career goals and develop as professionals, then I'm all for it.

No wonder we can't keep any experienced pilots around this place. Who would want to spend their day reading nine pages of posts about jumpseating in jeans? What a waste of time!

[dcramer16]

Originally Posted by FlyChicaga

You know, I do agree somewhat with what aloft is saying. I don't necessarily agree with him 100% on the GoJets issue, however. I think the reason he is met with such disdain is because of how he presents the message. Strangely enough, two or three of the largest advocates against GoJets also present themselves as condescending, with terrible attitudes. The problem is that they seem to be on the "right" side of this convoluted argument, therefore for some strange reason get a pass. Frankly aloft, you're an #######. But you aren't the only #######, so I don't understand why you get all the flak.

This thread has throughouly soured me to this entire message forum. I personally know Scott Hall, and some individuals here have made broad accusations about his intentions without any basis in fact. PCL_128 called him out by name, and I doubt he's ever met the man. The fact is I would not have had so much success in my career without the help of Scott. He is the one who hired me as an intern, then hired me as a pilot, then helped me make the decision to leave his company to move on to my current employer. I can't say I've always agreed with everything he has done, or all of his viewpoints, but I do respect the man. I highly doubt he has orchestrated a furlough of 80 pilots at ASA to send them to the "evil GoJets empire" in an attempt to destroy ALPA. That's a lot to accomplish from a position as a System CP at a regional airline.

I am absolutely astounded that some posters here have been allowed to take this great resource (as in JetCareers) for developing well-rounded professional pilots and morphed it into an resource for developing anti-management union pilots. We fight tooth and nail to get respect as professional white-collar workers, yet constantly act like blue-collar trade unionists. You won't see doctors or lawyers fighting others in their field the way we fight each other as pilots. Instead, white-collar workers study, practice, and develop themselves professionally to make themselves stand out above the crowd. Ask yourselves, how much lately have you gotten from this board in terms of developing your techincal knowledge base, or learned flying skills that could help you out on the line someday? How much knowledge about swept-wing flying operations have you obtained from the numerous professionals with thousands of hours of heavy-jet time that we have here?

Velocepiede, I'm going to call you out directly. I cannot recall one time in the many months you have been here on JetCareers that you have helped me learn anything about flying from your broad experience in both military and civilian aviation. I can recall many times you have told me about the ALPA Admin manual, Virgin/JetBlue/Allegiant jumpseat issues, and of course the time you told me I don't know squat about the B737 engine and "rotor burst." But never have you helped me learn anything worthwhile that I can take as a young Captain and use out on the line. Sure, I can take the things you've taught me about jumpseating and use them on the one flight per one hundred flights that I get a non-union jumpseater. But what about the two hundred hours of flying time that I'll be commanding an airplane with 50 or more other people on board in those one hundred flights? What can you pass down to me so I can use then? Maybe I've just missed it... If I have, please point me in the right direction so I can read it.

While I do think it is important we educated young professional pilots on the ails of this career, we need to redirect our focus to what is important: Developing educated professionals prepared for what we face out there in this harsh flying environment. Not trade unionists, but rather true professionals in every sense of the word. As long as this board keeps trodding down the path to become a recourse for teaching pilots it's just fine to treat each other like crap for the "greater good," then I won't participate. If this board wants to head back towards its intended purpose of helping pilots obtain their career goals and develop as professionals, then I'm all for it.

No wonder we can't keep any experienced pilots around this place. Who would want to spend their day reading nine pages of posts about jumpseating in jeans? What a waste of time!

FlyChicaga, you sound like a true professional. THE best post on this thread. I'm far from perfect, and done my fair share of bitching on this site, but I definatly agree we all need to do a better job of being professionals, instead of bickering idiots butting heads. Myself included.

[jynxyjoe]

Wow. Good post.

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by SFCC/UND

Why should I have experience? Any person can see that it will go downhill after the first denied jump seat. Let me paint a scenario, if a pilot is trying to jump seat on a different airline and gets denied because of the company he works for, do you think he going to be very happy? If he tries to go on another airline, but gets denied, do you think he will be any happier? I'm sure he might or might not return the favor.

I'm sorry. . .

I'm not too concerned with people being happy about getting denied a jumpseat. I'm also not too concerned with the emotional well-being of GoJets pilots. Not any more concerned than they are about TSA pilot's emotions.

Give me a break. This isn't about people's feelings.

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by FlyChicaga

You know, I do agree somewhat with what aloft is saying. I don't necessarily agree with him 100% on the GoJets issue, however. I think the reason he is met with such disdain is because of how he presents the message. Strangely enough, two or three of the largest advocates against GoJets also present themselves as condescending, with terrible attitudes. The problem is that they seem to be on the "right" side of this convoluted argument, therefore for some strange reason get a pass. Frankly aloft, you're an #######. But you aren't the only #######, so I don't understand why you get all the flak.

This thread has throughouly soured me to this entire message forum. I personally know Scott Hall, and some individuals here have made broad accusations about his intentions without any basis in fact. PCL_128 called him out by name, and I doubt he's ever met the man. The fact is I would not have had so much success in my career without the help of Scott. He is the one who hired me as an intern, then hired me as a pilot, then helped me make the decision to leave his company to move on to my current employer. I can't say I've always agreed with everything he has done, or all of his viewpoints, but I do respect the man. I highly doubt he has orchestrated a furlough of 80 pilots at ASA to send them to the "evil GoJets empire" in an attempt to destroy ALPA. That's a lot to accomplish from a position as a System CP at a regional airline.

I am absolutely astounded that some posters here have been allowed to take this great resource (as in JetCareers) for developing well-rounded professional pilots and morphed it into an resource for developing anti-management union pilots. We fight tooth and nail to get respect as professional white-collar workers, yet constantly act like blue-collar trade unionists. You won't see doctors or lawyers fighting others in their field the way we fight each other as pilots. Instead, white-collar workers study, practice, and develop themselves professionally to make themselves stand out above the crowd. Ask yourselves, how much lately have you gotten from this board in terms of developing your techincal knowledge base, or learned flying skills that could help you out on the line someday? How much knowledge about swept-wing flying operations have you obtained from the numerous professionals with thousands of hours of heavy-jet time that we have here?

Velocepiede, I'm going to call you out directly. I cannot recall one time in the many months you have been here on JetCareers that you have helped me learn anything about flying from your broad experience in both military and civilian aviation. I can recall many times you have told me about the ALPA Admin manual, Virgin/JetBlue/Allegiant jumpseat issues, and of course the time you told me I don't know squat about the B737 engine and "rotor burst." But never have you helped me learn anything worthwhile that I can take as a young Captain and use out on the line. Sure, I can take the things you've taught me about jumpseating and use them on the one flight per one hundred flights that I get a non-union jumpseater. But what about the two hundred hours of flying time that I'll be commanding an airplane with 50 or more other people on board in those one hundred flights? What can you pass down to me so I can use then? Maybe I've just missed it... If I have, please point me in the right direction so I can read it.

While I do think it is important we educated young professional pilots on the ails of this career, we need to redirect our focus to what is important: Developing educated professionals prepared for what we face out there in this harsh flying environment. Not trade unionists, but rather true professionals in every sense of the word. As long as this board keeps trodding down the path to become a recourse for teaching pilots it's just fine to treat each other like crap for the "greater good," then I won't participate. If this board wants to head back towards its intended purpose of helping pilots obtain their career goals and develop as professionals, then I'm all for it.

No wonder we can't keep any experienced pilots around this place. Who would want to spend their day reading nine pages of posts about jumpseating in jeans? What a waste of time!

Yep.

[MQAAord]

That was beautiful, Matt.

[surreal1221]

Well Matt,

I agree. Start some great technical threads. I'll be waiting.

Oh, but be careful, if you start it with good intentions those intentions may be perceived as making an effort to tell people how to fly their airplane. Can't have any of that.

Or, you'll be told you're a condescending kid who has no place starting such discussions.

Now I understand why you can't have your cake and eat it too.

[Doug Taylor]

Don't get me wrong, if I wasn't a moderator, I'd skip right past the thread.

But lemme count how many times something in the thread has been reported... BRB...

Darnit, can't search that particular section.

Peeeeeeersonally, I figured the regular combatants would say "Holy cow, look at the topics and timber of such of the dead threads in the beaten dead horse, uhhh 'Hot Topics' section" and cooler heads would prevail.

There's always an unstable choice between closing a thread because we need to collectively move on to more relevant topics and holding my nose and letting some of you guys bang your head together hard enough to realize the doltishness of mind-numbingly arguing on the internet.

Looking at the traffic statistics, most of the regular visitors skip the thread. Most unregistered visitors that read the thread generally read less than a single page and don't spend much time on it which leads me to unscientifically believe that it's largely a small group of tit for tat, post reload-reload-reload-reload waiting for the echoed response.

Ooh! Just had an epiphany here. Just a sec.