On Shutting Down Your Students

[CapnJim]

"Stop using so much rudder! God you're ham-footed!"
"Watch your altitude. WATCH YOUR ALTITUDE!!"
"You've got so many bad habits, I don't know where to start."
"Oh god. Forget it. MY AIRCRAFT."

Believe it or not, these are all things that have either been said to me or I have heard said to other students. Why I'm writing this is not because they were from one or two instructors, but because I've seen this behavior from instructors all over the nation, at all levels from instructors at ATP all the way up to regional airline training (!). It seems to be some kind of culture of arrogance and bullying, especially from the younger instructors, and we need to put a stop to it. To that end, I'm going to write this in two parts, one for instructors and one for students:

Instructors:
Your students want to do well, and they are looking to you for encouragement. It is unconscionable and unforgivable to abuse that trust by playing 'drill instructor', gratifying personal ego issues, or bullying him because you feel 'superior'. A student is in an unfamiliar, dangerous, confusing, and challenging environment. In order to succeed, he needs a confident and calm presence in there with him. A screaming, belittling, abusive personality is destructive to the learning environment, and it's tantamount to stealing: You're robbing the student of valuable flight time with your behavior. By shutting down your student, you're shutting down the learning process. If you lack the emotional and intellectual fortitude to realize that ten different students are going to make the same mistake ten different times, and it's your job to figure out ten different ways to show them how to do it properly, then do us all a favor and turn in your CFI certificate. You clearly don't deserve the title Flight Instructor, and don't deserve the job. A real instructor treats his students with dignity, respect, and infinite patience. If you don't measure up, take a hike.
I have over 1200 hours Dual Given. I also have a pass rate of better than 90%. I taught the best students and the worst. I taught Italian kids that barely spoke English when they started. I taught people who were airsick. I taught people that were afraid to fly. I taught the cocky ones, and the arrogant ones. I taught them all, and I did it well. I also taught student that had been abused by people like you, and it made me sick. I could see it in their eyes when they came to me, and I could tell it from the way they tried to hard to make me happy, instead of learning how to fly. It made me remember how I felt when I was belittled by my instructor. I fixed them and made them confident, safe pilots, despite your behavior.
There is no excuse for abusive behavior, so please don't post any as rebuttal; I'll tear them to pieces for the pleasure of the students you have mistreated. Moreover, you will have singled yourself out as one of the insecure, abusive instructors who feels the need to defend his poor behavior, so we'll all know who not to schedule ourselves with. Grow a pair: Treat students properly, and don't tolerate other instructors who behave badly.

Students:
Always remember that you're the customer. If an instructor is abusive, belittling, or is making you feel uncomfortable in any way, speak up. If they don't respond, don't waste any more time in the cockpit with them. Stop the flight as soon as possible. Land and taxi to park. Make it clear to the bad instructor that the lesson is over. Once on the ground, demand another instructor from the owner or supervisor. Make sure you voice your complaint to the instructors superiors. The bad instructor will probably try to point out all the mistakes you made, and marginalize your complaint by calling you a bad pilot. This is standard bullying behavior. Don't let him/her get away with it! You're a student, you're going to make mistakes. Your performance is not the issue! When he tries to point to your flying, refocus him and his superior on the real issue: His abusive behavior in the cockpit. When flying, make mental notes of specific things the instructor is saying or doing that are abusive. Often times, simply saying "He said 'xxxx' to me in the cockpit!" is enough to settle the argument. If you're given a new instructor and it's more of the same, perhaps with retaliation for "getting his buddy in trouble", then it's time for round two. If you just can't get satisfaction, get a refund and find a new flight school. If necessary, get an attorney. But whatever you do, don't let them get away with it. You're effectively the front line: If it ends with you, then the next guy won't have to go through the same thing.
If you're having trouble with an instructor or school and don't know how to deal with it, post here! I and others will be more than happy to help in any way we can. There's a lot of experience and knowledge on this board, and like most things in aviation, knowledge is power. Feel free to PM me if you don't feel comfortable posting publicly.

[SeanD]

Jim, great thread.

[JEP]

Originally Posted by CapnJim

"Stop using so much rudder! God you're ham-footed!"
"Watch your altitude. WATCH YOUR ALTITUDE!!"
"You've got so many bad habits, I don't know where to start."
"Oh god. Forget it. MY AIRCRAFT."

.....
Students:
Always remember that you're the customer. If an instructor is abusive, belittling, or is making you feel uncomfortable in any way, speak up.......

With my IR instructor, we had a few of these moments but once that was settled and I let him know where I stand, everything was fine. Looking back he was a great instructor we just had to let each other know where we stood.

[Chris_Ford]

I always give my students the "Ultimately, you're paying for me, and so you call the shots" speech at the beginning of training, and I try to remind them throughout the thing. Yes, there will be times when I might have to get a little edgier (landings in particular, when we're pointed at the ground at such a steep angle), but the other times, I'll try to be professional and courteous. If anything bothers them, I encourage them to speak up, even if it's just "You talk too damn much." So far, haven't had any problems with students. Too many of them come in with the expectation that they have to acquiesce, and that's clearly not a good idea in the airplane.

[Timbuff10]

I always thought you could tell the difference between the instructors that like instructing and the instructors that only do it to build time and move to the regionals by how much they yell at the students and belittle them.

Not sure any job would be fun if you consistantly yell at your empoyers/employees.

Kind of a fundamental of teaching I thought everyone knew about until I got into the aviation world.

Anyone else ever notice they are usually calm on the ground but when you get them in the air they flip their lid? I knew of an instructor or two like that.

[CapnJim]

A lot of it is just fear, and the weaker instructors, being ashamed of thier fear, convert it into agression, and direct that agression at the closest person: the student. You'll notice a lot of the excuses for bad behavior rooted in fear, as in, "He was trying to kill me" or "I'm not ruining my career for you!!"
It's all a euphemism for 'lack of intestinal fortitude' or, more colloqially, "not keeping your sh't together". Here's an example of ehat I mean: Armstrong lands on the moon. First words he says? "After landing checklist" (see B767's sticky in General Topics). Pretty f'n cool.
To a *infinitely* lesser degree, I had a student spin me at 2000 agl, full power, full flaps, and then froze on the controls. I said "My aircraft. My aircraft." The second time more sternly, when I realized he was frozen. No freaking out, no hitting the guy. The next thing I said was "Hey, what say we go do some pattern work for a while?"
Now, I'm not some ice-in-his veins superpilot cheeseball, I just knew that calm always trumps panic, and if I freaked out in proportion to how I felt that kid would never fly again. He passed his checkride. He's fine.
Guess what: they're always trying to kill you. If you can be cool regardless, then you can be cool anywhere, and you're the guy I want to strap into a jet with.

[aloft]

Originally Posted by Chris_Ford

Yes, there will be times when I might have to get a little edgier (landings in particular, when we're pointed at the ground at such a steep angle), but the other times, I'll try to be professional and courteous.

Relative to your usual lack of people skills, I'm sure....

[SeanD]

As a student I have been told I am too calm and look at my instruments more than I should be. The solution: my instructor slaps post-its on some of my instruments and reminds me to FOCUS on one point in the horizon and stick to it through out the entire lesson. It does the trick and makes me a little less calm and more alert. He does all of this without yelling. The way I see it is if you lack confidence in you and your instructors flying the instructor will see this in your personality when you fly and may see the student as more of a threat.

[SIUAv8r]

I have witnessed a few instructors act in an abusive manner toward their students in the past, one even calling his student "stupid" to his face. My heart goes out to the students, because the look on their faces when they get yelled at is heartbreaking. Learning to fly should be fun. Every student is going to learn differently than the next. Yes, they are going to make mistakes, thats why us instructors are there, to coach them through the rough spots. Instructors need to remember that they were in that position at one time, and if they were verbally abused, remember how bad that felt. Any instructor with a heart would never want a student to feel that way. Good post CapnJim.

[adreamer]

CaptJim, what a great thread.

As a fairly new instructor, I have learned a lot from my students also learn a lot about myself. All of sudden, I found myself fly better than I used to. However, I found myself running out of patient with my student sometimes, especially at the end of day. As a new instructor at FBO, I have few primary students. I constantly heard myself saying - "small corrections, small corrections" for using too much rudder, alierons...etc.

"Watch your altitude. WATCH YOUR ALTITUDE!!"

I just simply tap the altitude indicator to get my student's attention.

adreamer

[CapnJim]

Thanks adreamer, SIUAv8r, JEP, SeanD, et. al.!

Originally Posted by adreamer

I just simply tap the altitude indicator to get my student's attention.
adreamer

I used the same technique to teach that Italian kid how to fly, before he learned eneough english, and before I learned "due mila cinquecento".

[Ian J]

Completely agree. Had some very arrogant/ mean instructors in Army flight school and pretty much learned from them what not to do.

I think thats a great technique for when a student freezes on the controls... I plan to utilize that. Have this one guy who has difficulty taxiing (he's brand new) and freezes up when drifting too close to the taxi-way edge. I have basically had to muscle the airplane back to center-line. A good distraction for him would have helped, I think.

[desertdog71]

My instructor is great about asking me questions and letting me figure out the mistakes I make on my own. He will say things like "What is our assigned altitude?" or "What is the approach speed for this aircraft?" or "Why is it important to use a pre-landing checklist?"

I really like this way of teaching, it points out mistakes in a non threatening way, and allows me to think myself through the situation and develop my PIC skills as opposed to acting on request. This is the approach I will likely use when I start instructing.

[SeanD]

Originally Posted by desertdog71

My instructor is great about asking me questions and letting me figure out the mistakes I make on my own. He will say things like "What is our assigned altitude?" or "What is the approach speed for this aircraft?" or "Why is it important to use a pre-landing checklist?"

I really like this way of teaching, it points out mistakes in a non threatening way, and allows me to think myself through the situation and develop my PIC skills as opposed to acting on request. This is the approach I will likely use when I start instructing.

Mine uses this same method. I like it a lot. I learn a new weakness on every lesson and he will drill me on it through out and even on the following lesson. He told me this a few weeks ago. " This plane is stable and is designed to fly so fly it".

[Chris_Ford]

Originally Posted by aloft

Relative to your usual lack of people skills, I'm sure....

Riiiiiiiiight. I guess it's just because I don't spend so much time at the dinner table to socialize with all these people.

[CapnJim]

Pass the salt, Ford?

[pkrgod]

I dont agree with your post entirely. I personally dont take on the drill instructor mentality with my students. But I have seen some instructors that do, and it can be a very effective method. Everybody has their own style of teaching. This one instructor in particular is especially harsh on his students. According to your post, this would be "stealing" from the student. But usually once they make a mistake and he yells at them, they dont make the same mistake again.

[Ian J]

I personally wouldn't pay someone to yell at me unless it was a safety issue. Plenty of ways to get yelled at for free out there.

[Red5xwingdriver]

I too had an abusive instructor. The thing is, he was a great guy to hang with on the ground, he liked to joke around and what not. But once he got enough experience (he was new when I started flying with him), he began to become verbally abusive to me AND every one else he flew with. There would be, "God#%#@ it, ALTITUDE!!!", or, "WTF are you doing! Screw your head on straight", etc. After comparing notes with his other students, we decided that although we could rat him out to management, we didn't....but we should have at least stood up to him. Funny thing is, when he eventually left to work for an outfit flying Caravans, he told me that his instructor for that company was "quite hateful" towards him, and joked that he got back what he gave us.......well, ya think? From flying with him though, I knew what NOT to do as an instructor, especially since it makes students mess up MORE!

[desertdog71]

Originally Posted by pkrgod

I dont agree with your post entirely. I personally dont take on the drill instructor mentality with my students. But I have seen some instructors that do, and it can be a very effective method. Everybody has their own style of teaching. This one instructor in particular is especially harsh on his students. According to your post, this would be "stealing" from the student. But usually once they make a mistake and he yells at them, they dont make the same mistake again.

I am sorry but.......

This is like beating your kids. Beat them and they won;t do the same thing again. You are supposed to be learning to act as PIC. This involves learning from istakes, and the reasons behind that.

Reacting to unpleasant behavior from your instructor doesn't teachyou anything except trying not to anger your instructor for fear of that kind of outburst.

Learning involves seeing the big picture and knwing the material in depth. That comes from patient, and thorough instruction. Not yelling like an idiot. An instructor like that teachs only fear and anxiety. I would end the ride real quit if anyone treated me that way. Espescially If I am paying that @#$%&@#$%&@#$%&@#$%&@#$%&@#$%&@#$%&.

[FO_SHIZZLE]

Well I think you summed it up with the fact that they are unconfident in their own skill level. Same deal with a couple of those captains you will fly with every now and again. It is always those a$$bags that micromanage and won't trust you to touch anything but yourself because they are so scared that they will not be able to handle any potential problems that arise.

When I was a freshly minted CFII, I was definately nervous about doing a good job and trying to make sure that guy in the left seat did not kill me. As my confidence level grew, I felt my training abilities increased immensely, and I felt very relaxed with 99% of the situations. That being said, I always wished for a "do-over" with my first couple of students because I always felt I short-changed them in some way since I was such a noob to the field. Funny how you learn so much more by "dual given" than you ever did by getting "dual recieved".

[Red5xwingdriver]

.....I always wished for a "do-over" with my first couple of students because I always felt I short-changed them in some way since I was such a noob to the field. Funny how you learn so much more by "dual given" than you ever did by getting "dual recieved".[/quote]

Amen brother!

[CapnJim]

Well put, desertdog71.

FO SHIZZLE, every CFI on earth feels like he shortchanged his/her first few students. He probably did. Part of life. I don't see any way around it.

I found a real great way to deal with Micromanager Captains! When they act that way, thay're actually surrendering thier authority. The more uptight they get, the more focused, relaxed and in control you stay. Basically, you're countering insecurity with confidence. A great thing to say, especially when they start micromanaging on approach (a very dangerous situation!) is to look at them and say in a low, calm voice, "Are you getting nervous?" Which, of course, they are. And once they think that you think they're nervous, they calm right down. Drives 'em nuts.

[Timbuff10]

For the private rating, if people would get their written out of the way before they even start flying they probably wouldn't get yelled at by some of these instructors and they would save a ton of money too.

I think the FAA should require the private written before your first solo.

Just my thought.

[Timbuff10]

Ehhh, that didn't come out right in my previous post there... Let me rephrase it slightly so it doesn't sound like an excuse to yell, rather I think that may be the reason why it happens. Students that come unprepared are what makes it tough to be a CFI sometimes and I could see how a frustrated CFI could get to that point. Nothing is worse than a sightseer who claims he wants to learn to fly. When you tell someone every 2 minutes that they need to look outside and they don't it can get old... And yes, I am the sticky note master!

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0961407/L/

Students have to bring the effort, when they don't it just seems like such a waste of time. If the FAA required a certain amount of proficiency before you were even allowed to start flying it would probably make things easier. Thankfully part 141 kind of does that. Then again it would hurt alot of flight school's bottom lines if they went too far with it so what do I know?