On Shutting Down Your Students

[Dugie8]

Excellent post Jim! I always tried to teach my students like adults, no yelling, no finger pointing etc, even the ones I would proclaim to my wife in private that I wanted to kill!

Luckily I had very few students who were like that. I had a similiar experience with a student getting an Arrow upside down during cross controlled stalls, he thought it was the funniest thing in the world while we were hanging from our seatbelts, I announced "my airplane" rolled with it, to a normal attitude. Gave the airplane back to the student and said lets head back and explained why on the way. Once on the ground I asked him what he learned and this CFI applicant went into the most detailed explanation of stalls spin awareness I have ever heard, I was taking notes!

Brow beating does no good, for the most part, some students do require the 2x4 over the head method.

[CapnJim]

Tim, Dugie, good stuff. I have to confess though, I'm a bit reticent to say that a firm hand is useful sometimes. The wrong sort of instructor will take that and run of the gohdam end of the earth with it as carte blanche to treat students like crap. Better, I think, to stay cool as a cucumber, and consider slips into the heated stuff as a sign of emminent loss of control.

[adreamer]

I agree with pkrgod partially. Sometimes I need to do something to get my students' attention. For example, I called one of my students "goof ball" few times right before his first solo. The reason - He kept turning the airplane by using rudder first, then alieron. The result was a steep turn at TPA. . After complete his first solo, my student told me - "I heard your voice in my head. I can understand why you called goof ball. I felt I did a very uncoordinated turn from downwind to base."

My response - a big ole grin.

adreamer

[SeanD]

Originally Posted by Timbuff10

For the private rating, if people would get their written out of the way before they even start flying they probably wouldn't get yelled at by some of these instructors and they would save a ton of money too.

I think the FAA should require the private written before your first solo.

Just my thought.

This is what Im doing however I have started some flight lessons with only about 10 hrs TT thus far. It does help a ton to have the ground school training before too much flying is done. I love that pic of the post its. I get that same treatment

[CapnJim]

adreamer- I think we're starting to confuse 'motivation' with 'abuse'. A little prodding every now and again is normal-- that's not what what pkr was talking about. He was advocating the effectiveness of a "drill instructor" style teacher, essentially the exact thing I'm opposing. Some guys are proud of being 'tough' on thier students. That's pure ego gratification, and there's nothing 'tough' about them. I've had instructors like that, and although I was finally able to learn what I needed and pass the checkride, I felt cheated. I would have learned so much more and honed my skills so much sharper if the guy had learned some effective teaching methods. I've seen students so shut down and defeated at the end of every flight that they can barely speak. How is that useful? Just because they pass, that dosen't mean they were taught effectively. Think how much more they would know, and therefore how much safer they would be, if they were in a more effective teaching environment?

The plain and simple fact is, you can't fly well when youre tense and nervous. Everyone knows you fly best when you're relaxed, confident, and smooth. So how is it effective teaching to rattle a guy up, call him names, and yell while he's in a cramped, uncomforable, dangerous, and totally unfamiliar environment? I think the credit goes to the student who is able to succeed under that environment, and not to the instructor who thinks he's such a badass for acting that way. It's nothing more than incompetence and egotism on the part of the instructor.

[Airdale]

This is an excellent thread Jim! I'm a new CFI as well, but I had a few instructors during my private training that were like that in the plane, it only made me mad, it didn't change the way I flew.

I had an awesome instructor for my Private multi on through Commercial. He never got angry in the plane or yelled although he did jump on my tail a few times during my instrument training for doing stupid things, like busting assigned altitude by ATC. Looking back, I can see how he was a little edgy with that because it was his name and his ticket on the flight plan.

My only instructing opportunity so far was in a sim with a guy getting ready for an Instrument checkride. My approach with him, and with my soon to be students, is going to be calm and cool, but demanding when need be. I really don't want these people to kill me, so I'll make sure I give the them the old "My airplane" brief before we step in the plane. I think a good instructor is one that challenge's their students, designs every lesson around that students ability and personality and most importantly be a teacher. Teachers don't yell.

[CapnJim]

Sounds like you're going to be great, airdale!

I busted an altitude with my CFII on an instrument flight too. He just kinda bugged his eyes at me and said, "Dude, please don't do that again."
I didn't. That was when I started to learn that being a d'ck just isn't as effective.

[jrh]

I agree 100%, Jim. It's very good to see this issue called out in the open.

I would have to say though, thankfully, that such bad instructors are the minority. I've seen them and know what you're talking about, but I think as a whole, most instructors do a pretty decent job.

How would you compare the quality of instructors in the "low-end" training world (private-multi) to instructors in the "high end" (airlines, 135 freight, bizjet training, etc.)? Is there much difference one way or the other?

I've heard some horror stories of the rough times in training at airlines and such. A friend of mine who used to fly 135 freight told me about a check airman at his company that started yelling, cussing, and berating him from startup to shutdown on the 135 checkride, telling him what a screwup he was. My friend just tried to block it out and fly, and he passed.

My friend's friend took a checkride from the same checkairman later who pulled the same stunt...except my friend's friend told the guy to "Shut the eff up, I'm PIC and you're interferring with my flight," after which the checkairman stayed quiet. Maybe it's what he wanted to hear, I don't know.

Granted, a checkride isn't an instructional flight, but my friend told me some of the instructional flights weren't much better. He said he saw it as sort of a right of passage and tried not to care.

If that is the case, I see one big difference still...a 1500 hour pilot is going to have a lot more confidence than a 150 hour pilot. In my position now, I don't care that much if somebody yells at me--I know I'm a decent pilot and my logbook of experience proves it. If I sucked that bad, I wouldn't be alive right now. That's not something a brand new pilot can take comfort in.

[jtrain609]

Jim I agree with you to a point. While I think that instructors that beat their students up as a rule is BS, I've had some students ask for it. That being said, we need to treat our students as individuals and teach to them accordingly.

I've got one student that said to me when we started, "Listen, you've gotta ride me. Like you need to yell at me, task saturate me and belittle me. If you don't, I'm not going to learn anything." I thought it was BS, but I was wrong. I get in the plane and play Mr.Nice Guy and the guy just sucks it up. Then I think, "Huh, well...I mean I don't LIKE dressing people down and yelling...but I mean I did drumline for a long time, I've had to do it before and it worked THERE...but in an airplane? That's just stupid, but what the heck." Turns out that it worked. Once I started ridding the guy hard he started learning things finally. When we got done with the first flight like that got out of the plane, smiled and thanked me for ridding him so hard.

WTFO?

I've got another few students that I can't raise my voice to EVER, or they'll start to freak out. If they think I'm calm (even if I'm crapping my pants) then they perform great.

There's no reason to be a prick to everybody, but I have had students ask for it before.

[TonyC]

There seems to be this mentality that once one obtains a Private Pilot Certificate, he must progress to Instruct if he wants to become a professional pilot. Those that circumvent the CFI / CFII "career path" to build hours in any of dozens of other ways are frowned upon for their choice, even criticized for being somehow inferior. Thus, we have a mulititude of pilots trying to earn their way and build hours doing something they are totally unfit to do - - teach.


Teaching requires both aptitude and desire, and I'm not so sure obtaining the CFI requires either. Sure, there is a knowledge test, and there is a flight test, and certainly particular skills are required to pass the tests. But as far as the ability to teach - - well, that's debatable.


I can't think of a good solution to what I perceive as a problem. Perhaps I'm in the minority in thinking it IS a problem. Perhaps there is no workable solution. Perhaps all I can do is prompt personal, thougthful introspection. If you're instructing because you're trying to build hours and/or make money (sorry for the bad pun there) and you don't like teaching - - I encourage you to quit. Your bad attitude WILL permeate through everything you do, and it will be passed on to fledgling aviators who deserve better. If you're learning from an instructor who obviously does not have his heart in TEACHING the art of flying, I encourage you to dump him. Your money is more valuable than to throw away on someone who doesn't have his heart in the right place. Maybe it's a tougher call - - he wants to teach, but he just can't. Make the tough call, and save both him and you the grief. Move on. Find another instructor, let him find a better suited job.


As long as we push brand new pilots to become the resident experts on all things aviation, we'll continue to deal with instructors who should not be instructing.



JMHO




.

[CapnJim]

Hear hear!!
I've always thought the whoe deal was set up backwards anyway. It should be the old guys nearing the end of thier careers who should teach flying, not the ears-wet 250 hour kids. The newbies should be flying boxes in twins, pulling banners, dropping meatmissles, etc.-- you know, the kind of stuff where the amount of people you can kill (or screw up academically...same thing?) is at an absolute minimum.
Then again, these kids by and large are doing a bang-up job teaching people how to fly, and probably doing more learning than teaching. I know I did. But I dropped meatmissles too.

[Kingairer]

"You try that crap again, and I WILL kick your ass" "Just try me!, Ill take you out side and Show you what its like" "You couldnt fly yourself out of a wet paperbag, You no good, yella bella, wanna be!" "You see this, this is my side of the plane, no better yet this is my plane, and you just stay over there and be quiet". "You touch that rudder again and Im gonna take my boot and push your head into a spin"...

...These are all things I used on a daily basis.

[CapnJim]

You forgot: "I'm about to stick the size 12 Gators up your a$$ and show your insides some style!"
One of my favorite Buck Nastyisms.

[taildragger173]

Jim,
Have you thought about sending your post to NAFI as an article? It sounds like something that should be printed in the MENTOR magazine.

[KLB]

Good Post Jim!

I agree with John. It depends on the student. Some students prefer me to be more tough on them. I do not belittle or talk down on my students. Since most of my students are my friends anyway, they understand tough love. My very first instructor belittled and cursed me in the cockpit and my manuevers got worse and worse. He could not teach me how to land or do stalls because he was just to afraid......I mean...... literally shaking when he demonstrated......... kind of scared. I flew with the Chief flight instructor one time and my landings were beautiful. I do not believe in cursing in the cockpit and if I believe that I'm being too tough, I'd apologize. I don't think that I'm doing so bad because I'm literally turning people down who want me to be their instructor.

I made mental notes of every instructor I've had over the years and I took what I like in their instructional skills and I threw away what I didn't like.

I will add one thing though. If you do not like instructing or you do not want to instruct anymore. QUIT! Do something else. Don't put your student, who is the customer, through your bitter attitude and unprofessionalism.

[CapnJim]

You guys are right, of course. If a student asks specifically for you to abuse him, cool! The customer is always right! Then, of course, he can go home put on his gimp mask and have his mistress flog him. The rest of us want a peaceful and clam learning environment.

I'm not to excited about sending this to NAFTI. The last one I sent was summarily ignored. Guess I'm not thick-skinned enough. As McFly says, "I just don't think I can take that kind of a rejection..."

[greaper007]

Capn, I readily agree with you. I also agree that being nervous in the plane is what generally leads to this type of activity. I can say that from experience, I've never abused a student. However, I do think I've been too firm at times and it has bothered me. This is usually either on final, or when they're doing uncordinated stalls. I know I can recover from a spin, I just don't want to. Especially in a normal category plane without parachutes. So you're right, once you're on edge as an instructor I think it tends to make you a little more firm.

[ryanmickG]

Jim I disagree with every word. If they are not crying then they are not learning.

ohh..Jimbo how you have matured. I remember when you were hired at Skymates. Luca interviewed you and you came out of his office and looked at me, gave me a fist pump and let out a f*** ya!! I didnt know you from Adam but it cracked me up.

Wofford voice....."*sigh*...jiiiim how do you flight instruct"

BRAVO KILO

[CapnJim]

...and if they're upside down they're not puking!
Ya forgot the worst Jim quote of all: "I'm an airline pilot!" <sh'teating grin>
Luca only hired me so he could get some goddamm peace and quiet.

Man, Bravo Kilo was when Kilo Bravo pulled up in the Caddy, lit the pipe, and sterted preflighting the Nicotine Dream. All the old CFI's would scatter, and the new ones would stand there like chumps wondering "WTF?" Classic.

[n57flyguy]

WOW Capt Jim, great post!!! Im obviously not an instructor, I'm the student, Im luckey I found this post, its very very informative. Being the student, its hard. My first lesson went great, did better than he expected. The next lesson My taxiing was horrible and it was my first takeoff which I almost went off the runway, twice (see my taxi(I)ng sucks in general topics) Im glad my instructor is very patient, so far. Good instructors are calm and can handle anything that comes there way because they have seen it all. Good instructors will let you make the mistake (as long as it is not dangerous) Again with taxiing, he let me almost hit the hanger, he let me trim the wrong way to see why you shouldnt. I think the best thing a student can do, even if his flying that day sucked, he made mistakes, is to always walk away knowing what you did wrong and learn from it, turn it into a positive experience that you can learn from, instead of a I suck, im never going to be a pilot attitude. LIke me, my taxiing sucked, so I just visualize what to do next time. A student wanting to learn will make it easier for the instructor, but If the instructor is just a hot head drill sergent, then change instructors. ALways keep an ope mind about your instructor, if you dont like his teaching style, his pace, or whatever, talk to him/her about it. Again great post, very helpfull. Thanks Jim.

[CapnJim]

Thanks Paul, glad you liked it. If you fly long enough, you'll get one of those boneheads. Don't put up with it. He'll throw a tantrum just like any child will, but don't bow to it. Stop the flight, talk to a supervisor.

[n57flyguy]

Originally Posted by CapnJim

Thanks Paul, glad you liked it. If you fly long enough, you'll get one of those boneheads. Don't put up with it. He'll throw a tantrum just like any child will, but don't bow to it. Stop the flight, talk to a supervisor.

Alright, I definitley keep that/this in mind when I do. Knowing me it will be when I go to get my instrument.

[Ian J]

In flight school during instrument training one of my buddies had one of those yelling and screaming type of instructors. So one day after an approach, my buddy asked the IP if they could land for a minute. The IP didn't like it, but they did. Then my buddy opens the door and gets out saying very calmly, "I'm never flying with you again" and walks back to the hangars. Classic. An investigation was done after that and the IP was fired.

[Dugie8]

So CapnJim, we have established that is bad to yell at your students, but how bout putting your extremely good looking female student, who wears low kneck shirts ON EVERY FLIGHT, under the hood so you can get some hooter time??

[CapnJim]

Perfectly acceptable. And encouraged.
She can have VMC when she wears turtlenecks.
And share damn you! Two words: Camera phone!