Quit Now or Another Option-Career Changing Soon to be Story

ifly · March 31st, 2006, 20:33

Hello, I am new to this site which by the way is excellent, only problem is that I can not get myself away from it. I am ready to make a career change into aviation and being a pilot. I will try not to bore everyone with things that have already been said but wanted to make a few comments after reading numerous posts.

Boring details about myself

I am 35. (no I don’t live in a van down by the river) I am married, no kids but have a great dog and wife.
I have worked in Corp America as an IS Manager holding several different positions with several different companies. I make very good money.
I work for a good company, have a great boss, seldom work more than 40hrs.
I have what I would consider for my age very good savings and 401K.
I hate my job and working in an office.

OK, with that out of the way, I can honestly say I want to be involved in aviation and flying jets. I have a very supportive wife and am ready to quiet tomorrow and start flying full time. Our dilemma (along with many others) is the QOL questions. Most people seem to think there are two options, quit now, fly full time, or work full time and work on your ratings casually. I see pros/cons to both. Personally, I would love to quit and fly full time. However, as I mentioned, I have a very supportive wife but we also have a great house and 5 acres of land which we love. Here lies the great QOL challenge. When I started working out of college, I was all about the money and wanting to be the next president of our company, but now having very good money, having a great house, good savings, I still feel very empty as I just about puke at the thought of staying at my desk job all my life. If I had not worked in Corp America, had no experience with having money, I probably would consider a career pilot position to be crazy.

I have been flying for about 2 years with 150hrs TT. I have read a lot of posts from career changers and have come to realize numerous things that are absolutes:

You need passion to make this change. You have to love aviation in all aspects, the good and the bad.
You MUST do your research, research, research and you MUST know the expectations of making the change. You MUST have a plan and be prepared. You don’t need a formal document but you must know how you’re going to get there. I believe after my research along with confirmations on these posts, I understand as best I can that when I make this change, it will be long hard journey. I understand I may never get back to my six figure salary (no I am not bragging-I envy a $20K regional F/O).
YOU should go after your dream if you have done your research and understand the expectations. Life is way too short. Just heard about a friend today who found out she has cancer and is only 34.
Everyone’s situation is different, period. Don’t base your decison off of these posts. Learn from them. I firmly believe anyone considering a career change can make it (again if they research and plan and know the expectations)
You MUST listen and accept answers to your questions you don’t want to hear.
Don’t kill yourself reading every thread, you will go numb after a while.
To me, the bottom line, there really is no a right/wrong choice.

I can not stand the thought of living with the “what if” all my life if I don’t pursue this career change. So, here is my current plan. I am going to do everything I can to stick with my current full time position for now. Being patience stinks. But, I am working with my employer for 60 days off to work on my ratings. No, I don’t expect to get them all done. I understand many people will not be able to work this out but it is my plan. I have six weeks vacations banked that I can that. I would then work locally to finish up my CFII and MEI and hopefully work as an instructor part time. I have options in my area. This way, I can use my current job as a means to an end, save as much as I can (for the pilot lean years) and stay put in our house. My wife will let me quit and is willing to sell everything but maybe I will just dabble aggressively in it first before turning off the corp job. Yes, this is very very hard but we’ll see what happens. I am considering Ari-Ben as they appear to be well respected and offer very flexible programs and multi time. Looking at a 30 day program to get my Instrument/Multi/Commercial and 130hrs Multi time for about 15K.

You have options, research them before making the change. Career changers have to accept the fact that time is important but not everything. Remember, if you do your research there is no right or wrong answers. It must be what works best for you. I will update you for those interested on how things pan out. I thank everyone for all the career changing posts. They are excellent to learn from and appreciate any suggestions or other ideas.

DE727UPS · March 31st, 2006, 20:56

With the kind of money you are making, you should buy a little Cessna 150 to build time in.

ifly · March 31st, 2006, 21:17

Ya, not a bad idea. I just really want to get that ever important multi time. Doesn't that mean everything?

mtsu_av8er · April 1st, 2006, 00:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

With the kind of money you are making, you should by a little Cessna 150 to build time in.

Or, he could buy one . . .

Sorry, Don - I couldn't help it!!!

meritflyer · April 1st, 2006, 00:17

I respect your desire and dedication to aviation. You must know the facts before rushing into such a decision. Here are some realistic facts that you must consider -

that the pay will be next to nothing for years.
long hours as a CFI or building good time.
unstable, random pay cuts and furloughs.
training is very expensive and difficult to re-pay (if you can even get financing.)
mandatory retirement (airlines) by 60.

Alot of decisions to consider since the QOL is below the poverty level. Look into getting your ratings and flying for fun if not professionally. The best decision is a well informed one.

Good luck.

JEP · April 1st, 2006, 00:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by meritflyer

.....#1 I respect your desire and dedication to aviation. You must know the facts before rushing into such a decision. Here are some realistic facts that you must consider -.....

#2 Alot of decisions to consider since the QOL is below the poverty level. ......

#1 Did you read his post?

He appears to be well aware of the research required and appears to have done some. As for the payback and financing comment.......Just reading his post, I doubt that financing is an issue.

#2 ???? QOL...below poverty level.....??? How can you say what QOL is for him or anyone else for that matter?

JEP · April 1st, 2006, 00:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by mtsu_av8er

Or, he could buy one . . .

Sorry, Don - I couldn't help it!!!

by......buy......HaHaHa.

Here I thought you were baggin on Don for trying to sell his 150.

Swen · April 1st, 2006, 01:10

If I was 35 and in the situation you are in, I wouldn't have the balls to make such a change as you're thinking. I've started this all from a young and tender viewpoint. Simply stated, I have nothing to lose. The rest of my life will be based on my decision but that is okay since I honestly have no life currently to speak of. The life I will get will be formed around my decision and I accept that.

On your hand, your life will have to change with your decision. I know you realize that; however, I want to make sure you truely realize that. You're putting so much down on the table at one time when you send in your two week notice to your current employer.

Despite all that my advice is still to push you to start working on flight training. Get your PPL, if you like it get the instrument. If during that time or shortly after you say to yourself, "Damn, flying's fun," go buy yourself a plane. Take the wife, perhaps the dog and go someplace for a weekend. Hell, you can go visit the in-laws if you like 'em that much. That's what makes flying fun. Also you can take the plane out on weekdays after work. I wish I could do that.

That's my dream. I don't want to be just another pilot, I want to dig flying because its fun, not because it pays bills. However, slowly I am coming to the realization that if I truely wanted to do it that way, I'm going about it in the wrong way. With what I see in the future, I may never be in a financial situation to do that. I feel that's what it comes down to.

Like I say, I damn near idol the position you're in, let me be honest with myself, I actually do idol your status. If I were you, I wouldn't make a profession out of flying. There will be so many things you're going to be risking or even losing, such as pay, QOL and to a certain extent family. That's too much for me.

Life's a garden, dig it.

Flying Ninja · April 1st, 2006, 02:42

Welcome to the message board IFLY. I agree with what Swen stated for the most part. I understand that you have done some reading around the Internet regarding a shift in career from IT to Aviation. To give you a sense of perspective of where I am coming from, I worked in the IT industry before I got into the flying gig. I’m single and today I’m 34. I made the decision to cross the line at the age of 32 after obtaining my PVT certification and 170TT later. In a nutshell, I’m going to advise you against pursuing aviation as a career with what you have in your life. I know where you’re coming from with your comments about the desk job and we’ll come back to this. To address what JEP was saying to you about QOL, I’m going to give you some real life examples to help you put things into perspective.

QOL...it all depends on what you enjoy today and what you are willing to give up and/or change in your current lifestyle (and how willing your wife is willing to change with you). Before I got into aviation, this was a concern of mine. I belonged to a flying club and was introduced to a pilot who used to be in the flying club. I took him out to dinner with the hopes of getting his take on the aviation career. This is what I walked away with. Dan (not his real name) was a TWA pilot with over 12,000 hours making over six figures. He’s married and has a house and a couple of nice cars and enjoys the money flowing in. Dan was about to upgrade to Captain in a 757 after serving as FO for so long. Then American bought TWA. And after the dust settled, the TWA seniority list merged at the bottom of the American list. And then the furlough announcement came. Guess who got furloughed along with every TWA pilot on that list? I’ll advise you to do further research into what it means to be furloughed and what the day-to-day life of a furloughed pilot is all about.

Not being able to find another pilot job, Dan decided after sitting furlough for 3 years and the money was running out, that he needed to get a job soon. So he decided that he enjoyed his lifestyle and the house, cars, toys to warrant a career in selling mortgages. I asked him why not just find another flying job. At the time, he was only able to get a job flying with the regional airlines. Not only was the pay terribly low that it wouldn’t support the house and the lifestyle, he would have to be placed at the bottom of another seniority list, and give up his seniority number with American. He still loves flying and dreams of going back to flying but the truth is, he hasn’t gone back, and he’s not going to. He definitely has passion about flying. He told me that the schedule sucks and you’re away from home and family at 3-4 days at a time but when you wake up groggy and feel those engines generating over 25,000 pounds of thrust each, it puts a big smile on your face. I asked him about the relationship aspect of the career and he simply said to me that it would be best if I find a woman who is completely independent and is not going to care that you’re gone all the time. Hrm...okay. So that was that with Dan’s life with aviation.

Another pilot whom I met through a friend used to work for ACA. When Independence Air came to being, he hopped over to Indy. I asked him about his career experience and he simply said that he’s poor all the time and that he’s been paying his dues with the regional airlines for over 9 years and is just beginning to see progress financially. Now that Indy is over and out, guess where this guy is? He’s looking for another regional job so that he can get on the bottom of that pay scale and seniority list in hopes that the next regional airline doesn’t go belly up on him again. If you’re doing research, you can see that places like ASA, Pinnacle, Mesaba, and ExpressJet may not be the hottest company to work with. At the very least, you need to go in with them knowing that you’re taking yet another risk. So enough about QOL. I hope this gives you enough to think about and perhaps encourage you to talk to some real world pilots in person and not just people on message boards only. Let’s move on to the next thing: training.

For starters, I’m going to advise against going to any fast track programs that will guarantee you a job or certificates in a short amount of time. They don’t always work. I suggest that you continue your training while keeping your IT job. Between the IT job and your constant pursuit of the books and flying, you’ll get a pretty good indication of how your wife is going to react to you when she doesn’t get to spend any time with you anymore because you’re working hard and diligent in getting your certificates in the minimum amount of time. By now, I’m assuming you have your PVT at 150TT and not some forever student pilot who can’t find a DE. Work on your INST and then move on to your multi-engine training. Then go for your COMM certification and the CFI. You’re going to find out that there’s a decent size canyon you’re going to need to get over before you got what you need to fly for a regional airline or a corporate outfit. But it’s going to take time. With the job, it may take you up to a year or more just to get your certificates by flying on the weekends and studying during the week. Once you get your certificates, your next task is time building. You realistically need to get past the 1000TT and 100ME in order to be considered on a good day with a regional. The past few months have been good days for people with low time. But this industry changes fast and 1000/100 by the time you get it may not be enough. So you’re looking at building that amount of time and if you’re not going to be a CFI full time making around $30K a year on a good year, it’s going to take you a long time to get there. You’re already 34 so after your training and time building, you may be 36 or 37 (I’m guessing here for the sake of argument).

There is a mandatory retirement age of 60 for Part 121 pilots. But this isn’t true if you go corporate under Part 135. So time isn’t necessarily against you as far as making money goes. But only you can figure out your financial situation. And this is one area that I HIGHLY advise that you look into and consider very carefully. I’m going to suggest that you pay your flight training with cash and not take a loan for it. Since you make good bank, I don’t think this will be an issue. So finally, we come to the “What If” side of things. What if I didn’t take a chance and I let this pass me by and 20 years from now, I’m going to fall into this “coulda-shoulda-woulda” discussion with my friends and family. You’re 100% right to think that. What you need to consider is, what if I lose the house because I can’t make the mortgage payments, car payments, cost of living expenses, insurance, college fund for kids, the 5+ acres of land, etc. because I wanted to avoid the feeling later in life that “I could have been a pilot” if I took a chance?

I gave up a great paying job in IT, dropped everything in my life because I wanted to fly for a career. I realized that there’s a chance that I may not make it but I was willing to sacrifice everything to chase the dream. I attended ERAU’s CAPT program and figured it’s an Embry-Riddle program so they MUST know what they’re doing by promising me that I will go from 0 time to the right seat of a regional jet in 10-12 months of elite and intense training. After graduating summa cum laude, have more hours than most other cadets who graduated, today, I’m 100K in debt, have just about run out of money in my bank accounts, living back home with the parents, have not received a single interview with any regional airline that I applied to, and very close to declaring bankruptcy. It's been almost 3 months since I've touched an airplane. I drove to a nearby airport last weekend just to remember what the lingering smell of AvGas smells like; from the side of the fence where you can read the "Restricted Area" signs posted everywhere. I've graduated for over 5 months now and have not received a call. The crazy thing is, I'm so poor right now that I can't afford to pay rent for a crash pad in a new city where my domicile will be even if I got hired! All this to answer my “what if” a couple of years ago. My question to you is, are you willing to chance that? I’m not saying this will happen to you. It’s simply a reality that chasing this dream could possibly result since I’m living proof.

Is the office job that bad that making over six figures and the comfort of the home, cars, land is just not enough? If you got all that money and you’re itching to spend it, then go buy a plane like the Cirrus or Diamond Twin-Star and have FUN flying on YOUR TERMS! That kind of flying is not only enjoyable but I’m sure the Mrs. won’t mind exploring new places every weekend. Just the two of you with the freedom of your airplane! A cadet that went to Pinnacle who was passionate about flying recently posted that the passion has been sucked dry and it’s now just another job. A little over 6 months flying for Pinnacle and the passion is gone. I’ve heard this sentiment from *many* pilots so I have to say this isn’t some random change of heart. Passion? Well...it’s not the only thing you need...you need passion, motivation, dedication, understanding (from the wife/family), and a lot of luck and great timing for you to make it. This industry is changing...don’t let some 55 year old Captain tell you it’s the best job in the world. He’s not flying a regional RJ making $20 an hour waiting for the bat phone to ring so that he can report at a moment’s notice. And the pay is definitely not what it used to be back in the heydays of aviation.

If you’re paying attention still, there’s the opportunity of flying the VLJs that are making its presence known this year. This could potentially open you to turbine flying that has QOL attached to it. The pay may not be there, but you’ll be flying a jet. Who knows what details are involved, but it certainly has possibilities.

Today, I'm looking for a job back in the IT industry so that I can make my monthly loan payments for the next 15 years and still living with the parents. I think I’ve said enough to give you more to think about. If you have any questions, don’t hesitate to ask. People on this message board are great. But talk to real world pilots. It’s a lot harder to glamorize the job when face to face. Best luck to you.

meritflyer · April 1st, 2006, 11:56

[quote=JEP #2 ???? QOL...below poverty level.....??? How can you say what QOL is for him or anyone else for that matter?[/quote]

Maybe you can live and support a wife and pay a mortgage on a F/O salary. The earnings compared to the cost of training are insane. You qualify for food stamps on a F/O salary, generally speaking. Its also a very unstable industry for the most part.

I know what its like going from a six figure salary to the mid $30Gs. I worked as a pharm rep for several years before leaving the field. For someone who comes from making six figures it will be a dramatic life style change. For someone who has never experienced a six figure salary, it probably wouldnt be much of a shocker, IMHO.

I have to agree with Flying Ninja. I think that you stick with you job and still pursue you aviation passion. Get your instrument rating and maybe even your commercial tickets. With your earnings where they are, you can afford to play with airplanes.

mrivc211 · April 1st, 2006, 13:24

Just to give you a reality check, my W2 for 2005 was $23,000 roughly! Yup thats not a typo, $23,000. Gross! Not take home. Now, I have another source of income that alone doubles what I make at the place I work, but still. $23,000. Gross!

Now that I'm on captain pay, guess what. $55-60,000. Thats it! For being a 121 captain thats all you get. Keep in mind people before you start to bash that its only a regional. It's peoples lives we transport. Thats all you get for flying thousands of people a year as pilot in command.

When I was going through my ratings in college and working part time at the mall on commission I made $44,000 my last year there. Thats working fridays saturdays and sundays. Thats it. 3 days per week, 8 hours per day.

We work anywhere from 15-20 days per month. And have 10-14 hour duty days with no breaks. It's uncommon to see a duty day less than 10 hours. And you usually only get paid for 16-20 hours for every four days of work as a pilot at my company. Do the math.

Ralgha · April 1st, 2006, 14:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrivc211

Now that I'm on captain pay, guess what. $55-60,000. Thats it! For being a 121 captain thats all you get. Keep in mind people before you start to bash that its only a regional. It's peoples lives we transport. Thats all you get for flying thousands of people a year as pilot in command.

More than most US citizens make in a year.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrivc211

We work anywhere from 15-20 days per month. And have 10-14 hour duty days with no breaks. It's uncommon to see a duty day less than 10 hours. And you usually only get paid for 16-20 hours for every four days of work as a pilot at my company. Do the math.

At the same company, I'm working 11 days next month, max trip length of 3 days, average duty day of 9:43, and I'll bank around 82 hours of credit, which if I averaged that over the year would equate to about $27,000.

meritflyer · April 1st, 2006, 14:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ralgha

More than most US citizens make in a year.

At the same company, I'm working 11 days next month, max trip length of 3 days, average duty day of 9:43, and I'll bank around 82 hours of credit, which if I averaged that over the year would equate to about $27,000.

Given the cost of training and the time and effort that is an insult to be paid that much. There was a day when pilots ate in the same restaurants as doctors and lawyers. The average American didnt spend $50-100K on school and get a return of $23K gross. If you are going to compare, you need to compare apples to apples not apples to Ferraris.

Ralgha · April 1st, 2006, 14:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by meritflyer

Given the cost of training and the time and effort that is an insult to be paid that much. There was a day when pilots ate in the same restaurants as doctors and lawyers. The average American didnt spend $50-100K on school and get a return of $23K gross. If you are going to compare, you need to compare apples to apples not apples to Ferraris.

I spent ~$35k on flight training and related expenses, and really didn't find it hard at all. Little bit of time, but nothing like lawyers and doctors go through. Doctors and lawyers don't start out very high up the money making food chain either.

"Junior paralegals with two to three years' experience at small law firms are projected to earn average annual starting salaries ranging from $27,500 to $35,500, according to Robert Half International Inc."

Doctors start out in the 30-50k range, and have 100-150k of debt.

Oh yeah, both those starting lawyers and doctors will be working WAY harder than I am.

Spbeyond · April 1st, 2006, 14:56

Mmmmm.. PUDDING SCORE! (sorry I had to put the scrubs referance in there)

Minnesota_Flyer · April 1st, 2006, 15:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ralgha

"Junior paralegals with two to three years' experience at small law firms are projected to earn average annual starting salaries ranging from $27,500 to $35,500, according to Robert Half International Inc."

Doctors start out in the 30-50k range, and have 100-150k of debt.

OK. First of all, paralegals aren't lawyers. They don't have law degrees and don't even have to have any college, although many have associate's degrees. My firm's case assistants and legal secretaries make more than $35k. Paralegals were I work make mid- to high five figures.

Second, doctors don't start out at 30-50k. Residents start out at about $40-45k. Residents are still doctors in training. Fully licensed doctors, who have completed training, mostly start in the six figures.

At least try to get your basic facts straight.

ifly · April 1st, 2006, 16:33

Thank you everyone. Very good feedback and it is appreciated. There is a lot to consider. An extra thanks to Flying Ninya for the in depth perspective.

A few comments regarding the QOL issue. This is a tough one. Everyone has their own definition of this. For some, QOL means making lots of money, fancy cars, huge house etc. For others, just having a job they like or love driving a chevette is an acceptable QOL. As for pilots, maybe it is the satisfaction of transporting lives on a daily basis.

Each person must define this based on their situation, interests, wants, desires. My wife and I have discussed our definition of QOL in great length and what it means to us. I do realize our QOL will be affected if/when I make this change. I am just sick of the corp america BS and want to get out of it. But, I must think this through. I will not stay at my desk job all my life and still think flying is in my blood and I can make a go at it.

I do see the need to fully define our QOL as best we can before diving in head first. Even then, there will be reality check points I am sure I could never prepare for. That is why for now, I am leaning towards keeping the day job, and working hard on my ratings (locally and maybe a mini fast track). I would love to get through all my ratings and see how things are looking (the industry that is) one last time before quitting. If I do decide to quit soon and if things would not work out, I can fall back on my pervious corporate America experience. To me, career changers have a fall back. In addition, my wife works and makes OK money. No kids in our plans so we are bit more flexible than others. Money is not everything but is certainly does influence things. Flying Ninya brought up an interesting point about VLJ’s which is a potentially interesting market down the road.

Thanks again and I appreciate continued feedback. One question I do have is if Ari-Ben is a nice middle of the road school if I do take a month off to fly. My research seems to show they are decent. I may head down for a visit.

ifly · April 1st, 2006, 16:35

see post above, somehow (ya user error) this got duped.

Ralgha · April 1st, 2006, 16:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minnesota_Flyer

OK. First of all, paralegals aren't lawyers. They don't have law degrees and don't even have to have any college, although many have associate's degrees. My firm's case assistants and legal secretaries make more than $35k. Paralegals were I work make mid- to high five figures.

Second, doctors don't start out at 30-50k. Residents start out at about $40-45k. Residents are still doctors in training. Fully licensed doctors, who have completed training, mostly start in the six figures.

At least try to get your basic facts straight.

Alright I'll give you that. Residency can potentially last up to 10 years though.

They're still working way harder than I am.

Airdale · April 1st, 2006, 17:34

Deciding what to do is really up to you. You are going to get so many varing opinions, from people who hate the industry to people who love it. Its just like anything else in life.

I'm 24 and working on my CFI ratings now in hopes I can be flying for a regional in the next year or so. I've always wanted to be a professional pilot, and I'm not going to let a few comments from people change my mind. I served in the military for 4 years, so I know what crappy pay is like. I haven't made more than $30k a year so far in my life, so getting a regional job isn't going to affect my life financially because that pay scale is all I've ever known. One thing I know for sure is I don't want to be half way through my life waking up every morning hating my job. Of course your situation is different because your older, with a wife, nice house, good paying job etc.

Only you can decide whats more important for you. Down sizing your life in terms of money spent, for a job you love or a job you hate with good pay. Honestly flying GA aircraft is fun, but it doesn't do it for me. I need to feel the thrust of turbine engines launching me into the sky and passengers in the back respecting that my job is one of great importance. I don't care about making 6 figures. I care about waking up in the morning feeling proud of my job. I can't think of anything better than wearing a pilot uniform and climbing into a million dollar machine.

I wish the industry paid better, but I am driven by hope. Hope that the airline industry is still a place where a great career can be made. To fly 737's for Southwest Airlines is the ultimate goal for me. I find it hard to believe that there isn't an abundance of happy pilots sitting in big jet cockpits loving life. Maybe they are just so happy they don't have time to spend on internet message boards.

I do know someone who is Captain for Continental flying 747's. Been with them for 20 years and he loves his job. They are out there.

Do what makes you happy. You only live once.

frog_flyer · April 1st, 2006, 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airdale

I do know someone who is Captain for Continental flying 747's. Been with them for 20 years and he loves his job. They are out there.

Do what makes you happy. You only live once.

let see... fairly senior captain for a leg carrier makes around 200/hr. he probably flies 12 days a month.

I WOULD BE HAPPY TOO!
the issue is not "will i eventually have a possibility at being a badass like the 20 year cal captain" it is "is it worth risking everything to get there"

edit: i dont think cal has 47's....

Chris_Ford · April 1st, 2006, 18:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by frog_flyer

edit: i dont think cal has 47's....

Nope.

British Pilot · April 1st, 2006, 19:24

I would either follow 727UPS's advice and buy a 150, or I would fly every night you can through the Summer, and at the weekend at your local airport, build your time, plough through your additional ratings and certificates, and see if it's still right for you. It sounds like it will be, but you will experience so much along the way, and you will be sure that it is truly in your blood.

I am in my late 20's and am just enjoying every minute of flight training and have never known what it is like to earn the kind of money you are talking about, so can adapt to life on first year F/O money, and have just enough money saved so I won't have student loan debt. The money must be a consideration for you, since pay can be so little initially, and potentially even after several years, I am sure you will plough through your savings quickly enough during these lean times. It seems this industry has more than it's fair share.

In terms of the large flight schools, I am finding there is a great deal to be said for flying at your local FBO, meeting instructors, line pilots who want to chat about your training and how you are finding it, ex-FAA examiners, gate and ramp agents who have 400 hours and a commercial and looking to fly with someone over to Niagara and so on.
I seriously considered ATP and the like, and am very, very glad I didn't go that route. You will save a lot of money too.

Once you have all your ratings you just have to go for it, FlyingNinja and Sven give excellent advice in my opinion, but until you do it and are (hopefully) successful, you will ALWAYS look back in years to come and think I could have been a pilot, and I still hate being a desk jockey.

Airdale · April 1st, 2006, 19:45

Yes I could be wrong about the 747. I know he flies a big bird and he's told me what it was a few times but I can't remember exactly.

And yes, he's a 20yr Captain, sure he's got the life right now. I just don't understand how everyone on this site is so negative towards this career? It seems like everytime somebody posts up that they are considering this career, 10 people respond stating the industry sucks, pay sucks, don't do it etc. etc. I had a guy who flies for expressjet seriously try to talk me into quitting my training and doing something else. If this industry is soo bad that people can't stop bitching about it for two minutes, then how is the industry still afloat?? If so many people are unhappy about the pay, the QOL etc then QUIT! Get a desk job, I'm sure it would pay more. If life is so horrible at the regionals or the industry as a whole, then why aren't more pilots quitting? Why aren't more airlines going under? Why aren't flight schools falling apart at the seams?

I talk to some people and they recommend a different line of work, I talk to others and they say now's the best time to be building time because the industry will turn around. I'll make my own opinion when I get there. Don't let your dreams stay your dreams.

And if in a few years I find out the airline industry isn't where I want to be, than at least I gave it my best shot, I pursued my dream and I'll go on with something else in my life. But at least I won't look back and said "I could have been a pilot". Instead I can say, "I gave it my best shot, but the industry wasn't good then". I'd rather tell my grand kids the latter, that at least I didn't give up.

So my advice to anyone is, if its been a dream of yours, go for it.

mrivc211 · April 1st, 2006, 20:56

"More than most US citizens make in a year."

Come live in Orange County and see how far $23,000 takes you. Yes I have a choice to live where I want to. The average household income in no way remotely reflects what an average salary is in a city like los angeles or orange county, or even NYC for that matter.

But don't get me wrong, I also did the 20 days off per month gig for a few months there. It's not bad, but how long can you survive living like that? I mean sitting at home and going on the net gets pretty boring quickly. If you go outside its gonna cost you money.

April 1st, 2006, 00:17	#5
meritflyer Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Winchestertonfieldville Posts: 7,427	I respect your desire and dedication to aviation. You must know the facts before rushing into such a decision. Here are some realistic facts that you must consider - that the pay will be next to nothing for years. long hours as a CFI or building good time. unstable, random pay cuts and furloughs. training is very expensive and difficult to re-pay (if you can even get financing.) mandatory retirement (airlines) by 60. Alot of decisions to consider since the QOL is below the poverty level. Look into getting your ratings and flying for fun if not professionally. The best decision is a well informed one. Good luck. __________________ The simplest answer tends to be correct.

April 1st, 2006, 01:10	#8
Swen Old Skool Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 3,021	If I was 35 and in the situation you are in, I wouldn't have the balls to make such a change as you're thinking. I've started this all from a young and tender viewpoint. Simply stated, I have nothing to lose. The rest of my life will be based on my decision but that is okay since I honestly have no life currently to speak of. The life I will get will be formed around my decision and I accept that. On your hand, your life will have to change with your decision. I know you realize that; however, I want to make sure you truely realize that. You're putting so much down on the table at one time when you send in your two week notice to your current employer. Despite all that my advice is still to push you to start working on flight training. Get your PPL, if you like it get the instrument. If during that time or shortly after you say to yourself, "Damn, flying's fun," go buy yourself a plane. Take the wife, perhaps the dog and go someplace for a weekend. Hell, you can go visit the in-laws if you like 'em that much. That's what makes flying fun. Also you can take the plane out on weekdays after work. I wish I could do that. That's my dream. I don't want to be just another pilot, I want to dig flying because its fun, not because it pays bills. However, slowly I am coming to the realization that if I truely wanted to do it that way, I'm going about it in the wrong way. With what I see in the future, I may never be in a financial situation to do that. I feel that's what it comes down to. Like I say, I damn near idol the position you're in, let me be honest with myself, I actually do idol your status. If I were you, I wouldn't make a profession out of flying. There will be so many things you're going to be risking or even losing, such as pay, QOL and to a certain extent family. That's too much for me. Life's a garden, dig it. __________________ "Smith & Wesson - the original point and click interface"

April 1st, 2006, 11:56	#10
meritflyer Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Winchestertonfieldville Posts: 7,427	[quote=JEP #2 ???? QOL...below poverty level.....??? How can you say what QOL is for him or anyone else for that matter?[/quote] Maybe you can live and support a wife and pay a mortgage on a F/O salary. The earnings compared to the cost of training are insane. You qualify for food stamps on a F/O salary, generally speaking. Its also a very unstable industry for the most part. I know what its like going from a six figure salary to the mid $30Gs. I worked as a pharm rep for several years before leaving the field. For someone who comes from making six figures it will be a dramatic life style change. For someone who has never experienced a six figure salary, it probably wouldnt be much of a shocker, IMHO. I have to agree with Flying Ninja. I think that you stick with you job and still pursue you aviation passion. Get your instrument rating and maybe even your commercial tickets. With your earnings where they are, you can afford to play with airplanes. __________________ The simplest answer tends to be correct.

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March 31st, 2006, 20:33	#1
ifly Newbie Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 17	Quit Now or Another Option-Career Changing Soon to be Story Hello, I am new to this site which by the way is excellent, only problem is that I can not get myself away from it. I am ready to make a career change into aviation and being a pilot. I will try not to bore everyone with things that have already been said but wanted to make a few comments after reading numerous posts. Boring details about myself I am 35. (no I don’t live in a van down by the river) I am married, no kids but have a great dog and wife. I have worked in Corp America as an IS Manager holding several different positions with several different companies. I make very good money. I work for a good company, have a great boss, seldom work more than 40hrs. I have what I would consider for my age very good savings and 401K. I hate my job and working in an office. OK, with that out of the way, I can honestly say I want to be involved in aviation and flying jets. I have a very supportive wife and am ready to quiet tomorrow and start flying full time. Our dilemma (along with many others) is the QOL questions. Most people seem to think there are two options, quit now, fly full time, or work full time and work on your ratings casually. I see pros/cons to both. Personally, I would love to quit and fly full time. However, as I mentioned, I have a very supportive wife but we also have a great house and 5 acres of land which we love. Here lies the great QOL challenge. When I started working out of college, I was all about the money and wanting to be the next president of our company, but now having very good money, having a great house, good savings, I still feel very empty as I just about puke at the thought of staying at my desk job all my life. If I had not worked in Corp America, had no experience with having money, I probably would consider a career pilot position to be crazy. I have been flying for about 2 years with 150hrs TT. I have read a lot of posts from career changers and have come to realize numerous things that are absolutes: You need passion to make this change. You have to love aviation in all aspects, the good and the bad. You MUST do your research, research, research and you MUST know the expectations of making the change. You MUST have a plan and be prepared. You don’t need a formal document but you must know how you’re going to get there. I believe after my research along with confirmations on these posts, I understand as best I can that when I make this change, it will be long hard journey. I understand I may never get back to my six figure salary (no I am not bragging-I envy a $20K regional F/O). YOU should go after your dream if you have done your research and understand the expectations. Life is way too short. Just heard about a friend today who found out she has cancer and is only 34. Everyone’s situation is different, period. Don’t base your decison off of these posts. Learn from them. I firmly believe anyone considering a career change can make it (again if they research and plan and know the expectations) You MUST listen and accept answers to your questions you don’t want to hear. Don’t kill yourself reading every thread, you will go numb after a while. To me, the bottom line, there really is no a right/wrong choice. I can not stand the thought of living with the “what if” all my life if I don’t pursue this career change. So, here is my current plan. I am going to do everything I can to stick with my current full time position for now. Being patience stinks. But, I am working with my employer for 60 days off to work on my ratings. No, I don’t expect to get them all done. I understand many people will not be able to work this out but it is my plan. I have six weeks vacations banked that I can that. I would then work locally to finish up my CFII and MEI and hopefully work as an instructor part time. I have options in my area. This way, I can use my current job as a means to an end, save as much as I can (for the pilot lean years) and stay put in our house. My wife will let me quit and is willing to sell everything but maybe I will just dabble aggressively in it first before turning off the corp job. Yes, this is very very hard but we’ll see what happens. I am considering Ari-Ben as they appear to be well respected and offer very flexible programs and multi time. Looking at a 30 day program to get my Instrument/Multi/Commercial and 130hrs Multi time for about 15K. You have options, research them before making the change. Career changers have to accept the fact that time is important but not everything. Remember, if you do your research there is no right or wrong answers. It must be what works best for you. I will update you for those interested on how things pan out. I thank everyone for all the career changing posts. They are excellent to learn from and appreciate any suggestions or other ideas.

March 31st, 2006, 20:56	#2
DE727UPS Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 6,625	With the kind of money you are making, you should buy a little Cessna 150 to build time in. Last edited by DE727UPS; April 3rd, 2006 at 01:29.

March 31st, 2006, 21:17	#3
ifly Newbie Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 17	Ya, not a bad idea. I just really want to get that ever important multi time. Doesn't that mean everything?

April 1st, 2006, 02:42	#9
Flying Ninja Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: NY Posts: 127	Welcome to the message board IFLY. I agree with what Swen stated for the most part. I understand that you have done some reading around the Internet regarding a shift in career from IT to Aviation. To give you a sense of perspective of where I am coming from, I worked in the IT industry before I got into the flying gig. I’m single and today I’m 34. I made the decision to cross the line at the age of 32 after obtaining my PVT certification and 170TT later. In a nutshell, I’m going to advise you against pursuing aviation as a career with what you have in your life. I know where you’re coming from with your comments about the desk job and we’ll come back to this. To address what JEP was saying to you about QOL, I’m going to give you some real life examples to help you put things into perspective. QOL...it all depends on what you enjoy today and what you are willing to give up and/or change in your current lifestyle (and how willing your wife is willing to change with you). Before I got into aviation, this was a concern of mine. I belonged to a flying club and was introduced to a pilot who used to be in the flying club. I took him out to dinner with the hopes of getting his take on the aviation career. This is what I walked away with. Dan (not his real name) was a TWA pilot with over 12,000 hours making over six figures. He’s married and has a house and a couple of nice cars and enjoys the money flowing in. Dan was about to upgrade to Captain in a 757 after serving as FO for so long. Then American bought TWA. And after the dust settled, the TWA seniority list merged at the bottom of the American list. And then the furlough announcement came. Guess who got furloughed along with every TWA pilot on that list? I’ll advise you to do further research into what it means to be furloughed and what the day-to-day life of a furloughed pilot is all about. Not being able to find another pilot job, Dan decided after sitting furlough for 3 years and the money was running out, that he needed to get a job soon. So he decided that he enjoyed his lifestyle and the house, cars, toys to warrant a career in selling mortgages. I asked him why not just find another flying job. At the time, he was only able to get a job flying with the regional airlines. Not only was the pay terribly low that it wouldn’t support the house and the lifestyle, he would have to be placed at the bottom of another seniority list, and give up his seniority number with American. He still loves flying and dreams of going back to flying but the truth is, he hasn’t gone back, and he’s not going to. He definitely has passion about flying. He told me that the schedule sucks and you’re away from home and family at 3-4 days at a time but when you wake up groggy and feel those engines generating over 25,000 pounds of thrust each, it puts a big smile on your face. I asked him about the relationship aspect of the career and he simply said to me that it would be best if I find a woman who is completely independent and is not going to care that you’re gone all the time. Hrm...okay. So that was that with Dan’s life with aviation. Another pilot whom I met through a friend used to work for ACA. When Independence Air came to being, he hopped over to Indy. I asked him about his career experience and he simply said that he’s poor all the time and that he’s been paying his dues with the regional airlines for over 9 years and is just beginning to see progress financially. Now that Indy is over and out, guess where this guy is? He’s looking for another regional job so that he can get on the bottom of that pay scale and seniority list in hopes that the next regional airline doesn’t go belly up on him again. If you’re doing research, you can see that places like ASA, Pinnacle, Mesaba, and ExpressJet may not be the hottest company to work with. At the very least, you need to go in with them knowing that you’re taking yet another risk. So enough about QOL. I hope this gives you enough to think about and perhaps encourage you to talk to some real world pilots in person and not just people on message boards only. Let’s move on to the next thing: training. For starters, I’m going to advise against going to any fast track programs that will guarantee you a job or certificates in a short amount of time. They don’t always work. I suggest that you continue your training while keeping your IT job. Between the IT job and your constant pursuit of the books and flying, you’ll get a pretty good indication of how your wife is going to react to you when she doesn’t get to spend any time with you anymore because you’re working hard and diligent in getting your certificates in the minimum amount of time. By now, I’m assuming you have your PVT at 150TT and not some forever student pilot who can’t find a DE. Work on your INST and then move on to your multi-engine training. Then go for your COMM certification and the CFI. You’re going to find out that there’s a decent size canyon you’re going to need to get over before you got what you need to fly for a regional airline or a corporate outfit. But it’s going to take time. With the job, it may take you up to a year or more just to get your certificates by flying on the weekends and studying during the week. Once you get your certificates, your next task is time building. You realistically need to get past the 1000TT and 100ME in order to be considered on a good day with a regional. The past few months have been good days for people with low time. But this industry changes fast and 1000/100 by the time you get it may not be enough. So you’re looking at building that amount of time and if you’re not going to be a CFI full time making around $30K a year on a good year, it’s going to take you a long time to get there. You’re already 34 so after your training and time building, you may be 36 or 37 (I’m guessing here for the sake of argument). There is a mandatory retirement age of 60 for Part 121 pilots. But this isn’t true if you go corporate under Part 135. So time isn’t necessarily against you as far as making money goes. But only you can figure out your financial situation. And this is one area that I HIGHLY advise that you look into and consider very carefully. I’m going to suggest that you pay your flight training with cash and not take a loan for it. Since you make good bank, I don’t think this will be an issue. So finally, we come to the “What If” side of things. What if I didn’t take a chance and I let this pass me by and 20 years from now, I’m going to fall into this “coulda-shoulda-woulda” discussion with my friends and family. You’re 100% right to think that. What you need to consider is, what if I lose the house because I can’t make the mortgage payments, car payments, cost of living expenses, insurance, college fund for kids, the 5+ acres of land, etc. because I wanted to avoid the feeling later in life that “I could have been a pilot” if I took a chance? I gave up a great paying job in IT, dropped everything in my life because I wanted to fly for a career. I realized that there’s a chance that I may not make it but I was willing to sacrifice everything to chase the dream. I attended ERAU’s CAPT program and figured it’s an Embry-Riddle program so they MUST know what they’re doing by promising me that I will go from 0 time to the right seat of a regional jet in 10-12 months of elite and intense training. After graduating summa cum laude, have more hours than most other cadets who graduated, today, I’m 100K in debt, have just about run out of money in my bank accounts, living back home with the parents, have not received a single interview with any regional airline that I applied to, and very close to declaring bankruptcy. It's been almost 3 months since I've touched an airplane. I drove to a nearby airport last weekend just to remember what the lingering smell of AvGas smells like; from the side of the fence where you can read the "Restricted Area" signs posted everywhere. I've graduated for over 5 months now and have not received a call. The crazy thing is, I'm so poor right now that I can't afford to pay rent for a crash pad in a new city where my domicile will be even if I got hired! All this to answer my “what if” a couple of years ago. My question to you is, are you willing to chance that? I’m not saying this will happen to you. It’s simply a reality that chasing this dream could possibly result since I’m living proof. Is the office job that bad that making over six figures and the comfort of the home, cars, land is just not enough? If you got all that money and you’re itching to spend it, then go buy a plane like the Cirrus or Diamond Twin-Star and have FUN flying on YOUR TERMS! That kind of flying is not only enjoyable but I’m sure the Mrs. won’t mind exploring new places every weekend. Just the two of you with the freedom of your airplane! A cadet that went to Pinnacle who was passionate about flying recently posted that the passion has been sucked dry and it’s now just another job. A little over 6 months flying for Pinnacle and the passion is gone. I’ve heard this sentiment from many pilots so I have to say this isn’t some random change of heart. Passion? Well...it’s not the only thing you need...you need passion, motivation, dedication, understanding (from the wife/family), and a lot of luck and great timing for you to make it. This industry is changing...don’t let some 55 year old Captain tell you it’s the best job in the world. He’s not flying a regional RJ making $20 an hour waiting for the bat phone to ring so that he can report at a moment’s notice. And the pay is definitely not what it used to be back in the heydays of aviation. If you’re paying attention still, there’s the opportunity of flying the VLJs that are making its presence known this year. This could potentially open you to turbine flying that has QOL attached to it. The pay may not be there, but you’ll be flying a jet. Who knows what details are involved, but it certainly has possibilities. Today, I'm looking for a job back in the IT industry so that I can make my monthly loan payments for the next 15 years and still living with the parents. I think I’ve said enough to give you more to think about. If you have any questions, don’t hesitate to ask. People on this message board are great. But talk to real world pilots. It’s a lot harder to glamorize the job when face to face. Best luck to you.

April 1st, 2006, 13:24	#11
mrivc211 Old Skool Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: USA Posts: 2,488 Blog Entries: 1	Just to give you a reality check, my W2 for 2005 was $23,000 roughly! Yup thats not a typo, $23,000. Gross! Not take home. Now, I have another source of income that alone doubles what I make at the place I work, but still. $23,000. Gross! Now that I'm on captain pay, guess what. $55-60,000. Thats it! For being a 121 captain thats all you get. Keep in mind people before you start to bash that its only a regional. It's peoples lives we transport. Thats all you get for flying thousands of people a year as pilot in command. When I was going through my ratings in college and working part time at the mall on commission I made $44,000 my last year there. Thats working fridays saturdays and sundays. Thats it. 3 days per week, 8 hours per day. We work anywhere from 15-20 days per month. And have 10-14 hour duty days with no breaks. It's uncommon to see a duty day less than 10 hours. And you usually only get paid for 16-20 hours for every four days of work as a pilot at my company. Do the math.

April 1st, 2006, 14:56	#15
Spbeyond Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Logan, UT Posts: 216	Mmmmm.. PUDDING SCORE! (sorry I had to put the scrubs referance in there)

April 1st, 2006, 16:33	#17
ifly Newbie Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 17	Thank you everyone. Very good feedback and it is appreciated. There is a lot to consider. An extra thanks to Flying Ninya for the in depth perspective. A few comments regarding the QOL issue. This is a tough one. Everyone has their own definition of this. For some, QOL means making lots of money, fancy cars, huge house etc. For others, just having a job they like or love driving a chevette is an acceptable QOL. As for pilots, maybe it is the satisfaction of transporting lives on a daily basis. Each person must define this based on their situation, interests, wants, desires. My wife and I have discussed our definition of QOL in great length and what it means to us. I do realize our QOL will be affected if/when I make this change. I am just sick of the corp america BS and want to get out of it. But, I must think this through. I will not stay at my desk job all my life and still think flying is in my blood and I can make a go at it. I do see the need to fully define our QOL as best we can before diving in head first. Even then, there will be reality check points I am sure I could never prepare for. That is why for now, I am leaning towards keeping the day job, and working hard on my ratings (locally and maybe a mini fast track). I would love to get through all my ratings and see how things are looking (the industry that is) one last time before quitting. If I do decide to quit soon and if things would not work out, I can fall back on my pervious corporate America experience. To me, career changers have a fall back. In addition, my wife works and makes OK money. No kids in our plans so we are bit more flexible than others. Money is not everything but is certainly does influence things. Flying Ninya brought up an interesting point about VLJ’s which is a potentially interesting market down the road. Thanks again and I appreciate continued feedback. One question I do have is if Ari-Ben is a nice middle of the road school if I do take a month off to fly. My research seems to show they are decent. I may head down for a visit.

April 1st, 2006, 16:35	#18
ifly Newbie Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 17	see post above, somehow (ya user error) this got duped.

April 1st, 2006, 17:34	#20
Airdale Old Skool Join Date: May 2005 Location: NJ Posts: 2,317	Deciding what to do is really up to you. You are going to get so many varing opinions, from people who hate the industry to people who love it. Its just like anything else in life. I'm 24 and working on my CFI ratings now in hopes I can be flying for a regional in the next year or so. I've always wanted to be a professional pilot, and I'm not going to let a few comments from people change my mind. I served in the military for 4 years, so I know what crappy pay is like. I haven't made more than $30k a year so far in my life, so getting a regional job isn't going to affect my life financially because that pay scale is all I've ever known. One thing I know for sure is I don't want to be half way through my life waking up every morning hating my job. Of course your situation is different because your older, with a wife, nice house, good paying job etc. Only you can decide whats more important for you. Down sizing your life in terms of money spent, for a job you love or a job you hate with good pay. Honestly flying GA aircraft is fun, but it doesn't do it for me. I need to feel the thrust of turbine engines launching me into the sky and passengers in the back respecting that my job is one of great importance. I don't care about making 6 figures. I care about waking up in the morning feeling proud of my job. I can't think of anything better than wearing a pilot uniform and climbing into a million dollar machine. I wish the industry paid better, but I am driven by hope. Hope that the airline industry is still a place where a great career can be made. To fly 737's for Southwest Airlines is the ultimate goal for me. I find it hard to believe that there isn't an abundance of happy pilots sitting in big jet cockpits loving life. Maybe they are just so happy they don't have time to spend on internet message boards. I do know someone who is Captain for Continental flying 747's. Been with them for 20 years and he loves his job. They are out there. Do what makes you happy. You only live once.

April 1st, 2006, 19:24	#23
British Pilot Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 110	I would either follow 727UPS's advice and buy a 150, or I would fly every night you can through the Summer, and at the weekend at your local airport, build your time, plough through your additional ratings and certificates, and see if it's still right for you. It sounds like it will be, but you will experience so much along the way, and you will be sure that it is truly in your blood. I am in my late 20's and am just enjoying every minute of flight training and have never known what it is like to earn the kind of money you are talking about, so can adapt to life on first year F/O money, and have just enough money saved so I won't have student loan debt. The money must be a consideration for you, since pay can be so little initially, and potentially even after several years, I am sure you will plough through your savings quickly enough during these lean times. It seems this industry has more than it's fair share. In terms of the large flight schools, I am finding there is a great deal to be said for flying at your local FBO, meeting instructors, line pilots who want to chat about your training and how you are finding it, ex-FAA examiners, gate and ramp agents who have 400 hours and a commercial and looking to fly with someone over to Niagara and so on. I seriously considered ATP and the like, and am very, very glad I didn't go that route. You will save a lot of money too. Once you have all your ratings you just have to go for it, FlyingNinja and Sven give excellent advice in my opinion, but until you do it and are (hopefully) successful, you will ALWAYS look back in years to come and think I could have been a pilot, and I still hate being a desk jockey.

April 1st, 2006, 19:45	#24
Airdale Old Skool Join Date: May 2005 Location: NJ Posts: 2,317	Yes I could be wrong about the 747. I know he flies a big bird and he's told me what it was a few times but I can't remember exactly. And yes, he's a 20yr Captain, sure he's got the life right now. I just don't understand how everyone on this site is so negative towards this career? It seems like everytime somebody posts up that they are considering this career, 10 people respond stating the industry sucks, pay sucks, don't do it etc. etc. I had a guy who flies for expressjet seriously try to talk me into quitting my training and doing something else. If this industry is soo bad that people can't stop bitching about it for two minutes, then how is the industry still afloat?? If so many people are unhappy about the pay, the QOL etc then QUIT! Get a desk job, I'm sure it would pay more. If life is so horrible at the regionals or the industry as a whole, then why aren't more pilots quitting? Why aren't more airlines going under? Why aren't flight schools falling apart at the seams? I talk to some people and they recommend a different line of work, I talk to others and they say now's the best time to be building time because the industry will turn around. I'll make my own opinion when I get there. Don't let your dreams stay your dreams. And if in a few years I find out the airline industry isn't where I want to be, than at least I gave it my best shot, I pursued my dream and I'll go on with something else in my life. But at least I won't look back and said "I could have been a pilot". Instead I can say, "I gave it my best shot, but the industry wasn't good then". I'd rather tell my grand kids the latter, that at least I didn't give up. So my advice to anyone is, if its been a dream of yours, go for it.

April 1st, 2006, 20:56	#25
mrivc211 Old Skool Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: USA Posts: 2,488 Blog Entries: 1	"More than most US citizens make in a year." Come live in Orange County and see how far $23,000 takes you. Yes I have a choice to live where I want to. The average household income in no way remotely reflects what an average salary is in a city like los angeles or orange county, or even NYC for that matter. But don't get me wrong, I also did the 20 days off per month gig for a few months there. It's not bad, but how long can you survive living like that? I mean sitting at home and going on the net gets pretty boring quickly. If you go outside its gonna cost you money.