Another Army Aviation Question: Fixed Wing?

[killbilly]

I was surprised the other day to see a Shorts decked out in US Army livery the other day at the Texas Air National Guard hangars at AUS.

Just how much fixed-wing aviation is there in the Army? I know they fly a lot of helos, but I honestly didn't think they had much fw aviation at all.

What do they use the Shorts for? And what other fw aviation goes on in the Army?

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by killbilly

I was surprised the other day to see a Shorts decked out in US Army livery the other day at the Texas Air National Guard hangars at AUS.

Just how much fixed-wing aviation is there in the Army? I know they fly a lot of helos, but I honestly didn't think they had much fw aviation at all.

What do they use the Shorts for? And what other fw aviation goes on in the Army?

The Shorts do logistics runs for the Army, often times between maintenance depots etc. Army also flies C-12s of different types (King Air 200) as well as UC-35 (Citation) jets for courier/VIP transport.

[jskibo]

Looked like a couple C12's on the ramp at Los Alimitos last night.

[killbilly]

Originally Posted by MikeD

The Shorts do logistics runs for the Army, often times between maintenance depots etc. Army also flies C-12s of different types (King Air 200) as well as UC-35 (Citation) jets for courier/VIP transport.

That's very interesting. Are those pilot slots hard to get, compared to aviation jobs in the other branches of service? This has been a little eye-opening.

When I was in junior high, my CAP Squadron XO (I know, I know) was an observer in the OV-10 and I always thought that was an incredibly cool little airplane. Up to that point, I didn't even know the Marine Corps flew anything but Cobras, Harriers, and F/A-18s.

Are there any other esoteric bits of military aviation I'm missing? Seeing a Shorts 360 in camo was cool enough. What other unusual things are out there?

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by killbilly

That's very interesting. Are those pilot slots hard to get, compared to aviation jobs in the other branches of service? This has been a little eye-opening.

When I was in junior high, my CAP Squadron XO (I know, I know) was an observer in the OV-10 and I always thought that was an incredibly cool little airplane. Up to that point, I didn't even know the Marine Corps flew anything but Cobras, Harriers, and F/A-18s.

Are there any other esoteric bits of military aviation I'm missing? Seeing a Shorts 360 in camo was cool enough. What other unusual things are out there?

They are very hard to get.

As a Warrant you have to apply for it usually as a CW2 or CW3... and it goes through the Warrant Officer branch manager channel controlled by Warrants. I've been told that for them it's a completely who you know sort of thing. (There are exceptions... I had a warrant who applied - everyone laughed at him for it, and he got it. Go figure.)

As a Commissioned Officer pretty much the only way to get it is to go to the Military Intelligence Captain's Career Course instead of the Aviation one. And still it's a crapshoot if you do that (however, all my friends who went that route got the FW course. Again there are exceptions... one or two brand new LTs get fixed wing out of flight school.

[Blackhawk]

Originally Posted by Ian J

They are very hard to get.

As a Warrant you have to apply for it usually as a CW2 or CW3... and it goes through the Warrant Officer branch manager channel controlled by Warrants. I've been told that for them it's a completely who you know sort of thing. (There are exceptions... I had a warrant who applied - everyone laughed at him for it, and he got it. Go figure.)

As a Commissioned Officer pretty much the only way to get it is to go to the Military Intelligence Captain's Career Course instead of the Aviation one. And still it's a crapshoot if you do that (however, all my friends who went that route got the FW course. Again there are exceptions... one or two brand new LTs get fixed wing out of flight school.

On the Guard/Reserve side it has become easier to get. You still need to do a few tours with your unit, but there have been several cases of Guard/Reserve units going out and recruiting pilots to go to the FW course (with an immediate deployment, of course). When I first got to my guard unit in the late 1990s there were not any pilots flying C-12s/Shirpas/Metros below the rank of CW4. By the time I retired CW2s were getting slots.

[bunk22]

Originally Posted by Ian J

They are very hard to get.

As a Warrant you have to apply for it usually as a CW2 or CW3... and it goes through the Warrant Officer branch manager channel controlled by Warrants. I've been told that for them it's a completely who you know sort of thing. (There are exceptions... I had a warrant who applied - everyone laughed at him for it, and he got it. Go figure.)

As a Commissioned Officer pretty much the only way to get it is to go to the Military Intelligence Captain's Career Course instead of the Aviation one. And still it's a crapshoot if you do that (however, all my friends who went that route got the FW course. Again there are exceptions... one or two brand new LTs get fixed wing out of flight school.

No lets say a fixed wing pilot from another service is attempting to switch Army and fly...what be the probability of that person flying fixed wing in the Army?

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by bunk22

No lets say a fixed wing pilot from another service is attempting to switch Army and fly...what be the probability of that person flying fixed wing in the Army?

No idea... never saw that happen.

[Blackhawk]

Originally Posted by bunk22

No lets say a fixed wing pilot from another service is attempting to switch Army and fly...what be the probability of that person flying fixed wing in the Army?

Could possibly happen in the Guard/Reserve but would not happen on active duty.

[modernicarus]

Originally Posted by killbilly

What do they use the Shorts for?

Airborne deployment of combat personnel.

I took this pic of a C-23 on the ramp in Columbus, Indiana just before we loaded. We used these every once in a while for airborne insertions into our mission. They're pretty weight and balance sensitive though and the nose will tip up if you aren't careful when you load. Also, when jumping, you need to be careful not to rack your Kevlar or ACH on the airframe as you exit the ramp, unless you're shorter than the average guy.

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by Blackhawk

Could possibly happen in the Guard/Reserve but would not happen on active duty.

Interesting. . .heard that viewpoint as well when I was in; guess that hasn't changed over the years.

[bunk22]

Originally Posted by Blackhawk

Could possibly happen in the Guard/Reserve but would not happen on active duty.

Any reason as to why it wouldn't happen on active? I'm not trying to go Army as I'm 3 years from retirement with the Navy so simply curious. If a pilot switched over from the Air Force (flew C-130's for example), it would make sense (financially and from a platform perspective) for that pilot to go fixed wing. He or she would need minimal training compared to having to learn to fly a helo. Just my thought on it anyway.

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by bunk22

Any reason as to why it wouldn't happen on active? I'm not trying to go Army as I'm 3 years from retirement with the Navy so simply curious. If a pilot switched over from the Air Force (flew C-130's for example), it would make sense (financially and from a platform perspective) for that pilot to go fixed wing. He or she would need minimal training compared to having to learn to fly a helo. Just my thought on it anyway.

Probably because the Army doesn't need fixed wing pilots and that the majority of all Army pilots are Warrant Officers.

Plus you usually don't see a whole bunch of AF Officers jumping at the bit to be in the Army. They usually don't get too sick of their cushy lifestyle.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by Ian J

They are very hard to get.

As a Warrant you have to apply for it usually as a CW2 or CW3... and it goes through the Warrant Officer branch manager channel controlled by Warrants. I've been told that for them it's a completely who you know sort of thing. (There are exceptions... I had a warrant who applied - everyone laughed at him for it, and he got it. Go figure.)

As a Commissioned Officer pretty much the only way to get it is to go to the Military Intelligence Captain's Career Course instead of the Aviation one. And still it's a crapshoot if you do that (however, all my friends who went that route got the FW course. Again there are exceptions... one or two brand new LTs get fixed wing out of flight school.

Ian/Blackhawk,

For RLOs in the Army, prior to aviation being its own branch, didn't you have to be part of some other combat arms branch and aviation was considered secondary?

Also, is it true that medevac helos and their crews aren't part of the aviation branch, but are actually medical branch? (for the laymen, I know that sounds like it'd make sense, but not from the flight crew side of things, IMO).

I believe fixed wing training is over here at Cairns AAF where I am. At least there are C-12s on the ramp and flying around often doing patterns and approaches, so I assume it to be.

[Blackhawk]

Originally Posted by MikeD

Ian/Blackhawk,

For RLOs in the Army, prior to aviation being its own branch, didn't you have to be part of some other combat arms branch and aviation was considered secondary?

Also, is it true that medevac helos and their crews aren't part of the aviation branch, but are actually medical branch? (for the laymen, I know that sounds like it'd make sense, but not from the flight crew side of things, IMO).

I believe fixed wing training is over here at Cairns AAF where I am. At least there are C-12s on the ramp and flying around often doing patterns and approaches, so I assume it to be.

Yes to the first question. This got to be a major hasstle, however as the complexity of the airframes increased and RLOs had to go off to their parent branch every few years.
Medevac is part of MSC (Medical Service Corps), but there has been talk about putting it under Aviation. Not sure if this has happened.
Most of the FW training is at Dothan. The Guard also does some in WV. The initial FW training is done by FSI. Some Guard pilots who have a good deal of FW time are put through a short course. This was done for some of the pilots in my Guard unit who were airline pilots. Makes sense. Do you want to send a guy/gal typed on several airplanes to FSI to learn how to fly 182s and King Airs so they can turn around and fly Sherpas? Mike- you know if they have any of the FW training in AZ as well?

[bunk22]

Originally Posted by Ian J

Probably because the Army doesn't need fixed wing pilots and that the majority of all Army pilots are Warrant Officers.

Plus you usually don't see a whole bunch of AF Officers jumping at the bit to be in the Army. They usually don't get too sick of their cushy lifestyle.

Good points I've known plenty of guys to switch from Navy to AF or Coast Gaurd, even some AF guys swith to Navy or CG. Hell, at my last squadron, we had 6 Marines go Coast Guard. I've never known a guy to switch to the Army. I'm sure it has happened but in all my years, I haven't known a single gut to do it.

[Low_Level_Hell]

I think the main attraction for fixed-wing in the Army is the AF-style Quality of Life. Even then it probably doesn't compare. Every Airmen turned Army Warrant always said they were treated better as enlisted in the AF then as an officer in the Army.

Even if you're assigned to a C-12 Guard Unit you will still be taught to fly in a Jet Ranger first. Know a couple Guard LT's that did just that.

[ozziecat35]

Originally Posted by MikeD

The Shorts do logistics runs for the Army, often times between maintenance depots etc. Army also flies C-12s of different types (King Air 200) as well as UC-35 (Citation) jets for courier/VIP transport.

Don't forget the lovely Dash 7's!!! God those things are trashboxes. Worked on ELINT Systems in those while I was in Korea.

[ozziecat35]

Originally Posted by Low_Level_Hell

I think the main attraction for fixed-wing in the Army is the AF-style Quality of Life. Even then it probably doesn't compare. Every Airmen turned Army Warrant always said they were treated better as enlisted in the AF then as an officer in the Army.

Yeah, but imagine being Army enlisted and moving up to even a rotary warrant....that's QOL!

[HeyEng]

Originally Posted by Low_Level_Hell

I think the main attraction for fixed-wing in the Army is the AF-style Quality of Life. Even then it probably doesn't compare. Every Airmen turned Army Warrant always said they were treated better as enlisted in the AF then as an officer in the Army.

Even if you're assigned to a C-12 Guard Unit you will still be taught to fly in a Jet Ranger first. Know a couple Guard LT's that did just that.

Word!!! The life as an enlisted "sweaty" in the AF is a damn sweet gig. My uncle (an AF 0-6) was beside himself when I refused to "cross over" to the officer side when I finished my BS degree. I told him that since I was too old for a pilot slot, there was NO WAY I was giving up my DAMN GOOD job to go be an intel, supply, some other crap job officer in the AF. As a matter of fact, in my squadron (not very big, less than 15 enlisted guys) 6 of us have master's degrees. I think that may tell you something about the "Chair Force".

Oh yeah....I think I might be a crazy person 'cause I think the Shorts is pretty cool looking aerospace vehicle!

[Mikey_G]

Originally Posted by Low_Level_Hell

I think the main attraction for fixed-wing in the Army is the AF-style Quality of Life. Even then it probably doesn't compare. Every Airmen turned Army Warrant always said they were treated better as enlisted in the AF then as an officer in the Army.

Even if you're assigned to a C-12 Guard Unit you will still be taught to fly in a Jet Ranger first. Know a couple Guard LT's that did just that.

This reminds me of a disgruntled life support technician I met today. He complains about being treated like a child, getting paperwork for the most minute offenses, and couldn't wait to drop his WOFT package to become a Huey or Blackhawk pilot. His entire attitude towards life and the military convinced me that he is going to have another thing coming if he actually goes through with his plans. Ahh youth, what is it with the younger generation thinking everything should be just handed to them?

[wjmiller3]

Originally Posted by modernicarus

Airborne deployment of combat personnel.

I took this pic of a C-23 on the ramp in Columbus, Indiana just before we loaded. We used these every once in a while for airborne insertions into our mission. They're pretty weight and balance sensitive though and the nose will tip up if you aren't careful when you load. Also, when jumping, you need to be careful not to rack your Kevlar or ACH on the airframe as you exit the ramp, unless you're shorter than the average guy.

Always thought these were some weird ass looking planes... Looks like somebody at the drawing board got drunk and decided to put a caravan wing on an Amtrak train and make a plane...

[Firebird2XC]

Originally Posted by bunk22

No lets say a fixed wing pilot from another service is attempting to switch Army and fly...what be the probability of that person flying fixed wing in the Army?

It's possible, but what the Army wants is rotary wing pilots.

You've got a 98% chance of ending up in a whirly bird. Fixed wing slots in the Army are typically VIP ops or intelligence platforms. They run very senior.

[Blackhawk]

Originally Posted by wjmiller3

Always thought these were some weird ass looking planes... Looks like somebody at the drawing board got drunk and decided to put a caravan wing on an Amtrak train and make a plane...

Actually a couple of Irish aerodynamic engineers were drinking at a pub on the docks of Belfast. One of them saw a connex and bet the others that he could make it fly. True story.

[bunk22]

Originally Posted by Firebird2XC

It's possible, but what the Army wants is rotary wing pilots.

You've got a 98% chance of ending up in a whirly bird. Fixed wing slots in the Army are typically VIP ops or intelligence platforms. They run very senior.

Probably another reason why a fixed guy doesn't switch, unless they want to fly rotary. I think Army flying would be a great experience.