Military Aviation and FAR's

[The Fez]

So I'm sitting up here in the wonderful freezing rain and nasty winds at Pueblo's IFS (obviously a weather down day) and the subject of the military following FAR's comes up. It got me wondering, to what extent does the military follow the civil regulations? Are they even required to, or is it done out of courtesy for the FAA?

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by The Fez

So I'm sitting up here in the wonderful freezing rain and nasty winds at Pueblo's IFS (obviously a weather down day) and the subject of the military following FAR's comes up. It got me wondering, to what extent does the military follow the civil regulations? Are they even required to, or is it done out of courtesy for the FAA?

They follow the FARs, Part 91 to be exact. Reference your 11-202 and they're the same, with some added material particular to the specific service. For example, for aircraft speed, in 14 CFR 91.117. Portion (d) applies to many tactical jets that are allowed to exceed 250kts below 10,000 feet. Many portions of 14 CFR 91.175, Takeoff and Landing under IFR, have the statement ".....except a military aircraft of the United States...". Much of that particular reg doesn't apply to us since we in the mil have our own destination and alternate WX requirements.

So the answer is, the mil follows FARs, not out of courtesy, but because they're regulatory and we share the same National Airspace System everyone else does. However, we do have rules within our own service regs that are particular to us and may differ from some FARs.

What, are all the UPT wannabe's sitting around brainstorming when the WX is crap?

[///AMG]

On the Navy side, we have OPNAV 3710 which governs the operation of Naval aircraft (and aircrew certification).....it is like our FAR. It mirrors the FARs in most respects, with the differences normally being that 3710 is more restrictive. So don't get the impression that the military is able to just go out there and break FAR's and hide behind service specific regs. If I break a FAR flying around in US airspace I will be flight violated just like I would be if doing it in a civil registered aircraft. The actual mechanics of receiving a flight violation from the FAA can be different for us though, as theoretically (at least as I understand it) your command should not be releasing your personal info to the FAA. I doubt your Skipper/CO would be psyched about his pilots disregarding FARs though

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by ///AMG

The actual mechanics of receiving a flight violation from the FAA can be different for us though, as theoretically (at least as I understand it) your command should not be releasing your personal info to the FAA. I doubt your Skipper/CO would be psyched about his pilots disregarding FARs though

Generally, ATC advises you of a "pilot deviation", as they call it. Some will give you a landline number to call (which I wouldn't), but generally, they report it through the appropriate service liaison to the FAA....generally an O-4/5 who is the service rep to the FAA. This is why on your DD-175/1801, you do not put a name or service number on it, just put "on file" in those blocks.

One reason you don't want you name given to them or want to call them, is especially important to those with FAA certs. Even though when piloting a military aircraft, you're NOT operating under the priviliges of your FAA certificates; the FAA can and has violated military pilots under their FAA certs for a violation that has occurred when flying a military plane........ie- when not operating under the privilege of the civil certs. That's why you don't give a name.

[The Fez]

Originally Posted by MikeD

They follow the FARs, Part 91 to be exact. Reference your 11-202 and they're the same, with some added material particular to the specific service. For example, for aircraft speed, in 14 CFR 91.117. Portion (d) applies to many tactical jets that are allowed to exceed 250kts below 10,000 feet. Many portions of 14 CFR 91.175, Takeoff and Landing under IFR, have the statement ".....except a military aircraft of the United States...". Much of that particular reg doesn't apply to us since we in the mil have our own destination and alternate WX requirements.

So the answer is, the mil follows FARs, not out of courtesy, but because they're regulatory and we share the same National Airspace System everyone else does. However, we do have rules within our own service regs that are particular to us and may differ from some FARs.

What, are all the UPT wannabe's sitting around brainstorming when the WX is crap?

First, 11-202 doesn't even exist here. While the IFS program reports to the AF, the civilians run everything according to FAR's. The discussion came up over a question involving seatbelt use during flight, particularly flight crew members. The question was, "When are flight crew members required to wear safety belts?" From my PPL experience, I knew the reg stated, "During takeoff and landing, and while enroute, each required flight crewmember shall - (1) Be at the crewmember station unless the absense in necessary....(nowhere to go in a DA20) (2) Keep the safety belt fastened while at the crewmember station (again, nowhere to go in the DA20). Subsections 1 and 2 of (b) under 91.105 pretty much follow the logic of the first two I mentioned.

Second, my beef was with the "correct" answer to the question, which was "during takeoff and landing." A few of us started joking that we'd take our belts off during a flight just to see what the IP's said. Then, some former crew chief started spouting that the military is not required to follow FAR's. I argued that military aircraft would not fly in the NAS if this was the case and he pressed the issue. He said, "Then how come AWACS crews can move around the cabin at will?" I argued that the cabin crew, while "flight crew" were not essential to the operation of the aircraft and fell under 91.107, otherwise known as passengers. A non-issue to me, but it got me wondering just how much the military followed the FAR's.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by The Fez

First, 11-202 doesn't even exist here. While the IFS program reports to the AF, the civilians run everything according to FAR's. The discussion came up over a question involving seatbelt use during flight, particularly flight crew members. The question was, "When are flight crew members required to wear safety belts?" From my PPL experience, I knew the reg stated, "During takeoff and landing, and while enroute, each required flight crewmember shall - (1) Be at the crewmember station unless the absense in necessary....(nowhere to go in a DA20) (2) Keep the safety belt fastened while at the crewmember station (again, nowhere to go in the DA20). Subsections 1 and 2 of (b) under 91.105 pretty much follow the logic of the first two I mentioned.

Second, my beef was with the "correct" answer to the question, which was "during takeoff and landing." A few of us started joking that we'd take our belts off during a flight just to see what the IP's said. Then, some former crew chief started spouting that the military is not required to follow FAR's. I argued that military aircraft would not fly in the NAS if this was the case and he pressed the issue. He said, "Then how come AWACS crews can move around the cabin at will?" I argued that the cabin crew, while "flight crew" were not essential to the operation of the aircraft and fell under 91.107, otherwise known as passengers. A non-issue to me, but it got me wondering just how much the military followed the FAR's.

Am sure there's some portion of the 11-2E-3B (or whatever the heck the E-3-specific regs are) that address just that, and likely are a follow-on or parallel to the FARs. 14 CFR 91.107(3) states:

"Except as provided in this paragraph, each person on board a U.S.-registered civil aircraft (except a free balloon that incorporates a basket or gondola or an airship type certificated before November 2, 1987) must occupy an approved seat or berth with a safety belt and, if installed, shoulder harness, properly secured about him or her during movement on the surface, takeoff, and landing."

The bolded part shows where this FAR is not applicable to military aircraft, however the basic 11-202 does address this for USAF operations. BTW, are the planes up there civil registered (ie- do they have N-numbers?).

[frog_flyer]

Fez, did the AAFES close before you could buy beer, again? Why they hell are you asking dumb questions on a weather day and not boozing?

[The Fez]

Originally Posted by MikeD

The bolded part shows where this FAR is not applicable to military aircraft, however the basic 11-202 does address this for USAF operations. BTW, are the planes up there civil registered (ie- do they have N-numbers?).

Oh yeah, every single one.

[The Fez]

Originally Posted by frog_flyer

Fez, did the AAFES close before you could buy beer, again? Why they hell are you asking dumb questions on a weather day and not boozing?

Oh I am boozing...

[PeterPilot]

Military aircraft are termed “public use”. As such, they are not regulated by the FAA. That same rule is available to all governments entities. There was a story not too long ago of an unregistered helicopter that crashed while being flown by a pilot without a pilot certificate and it was all legal because it was operated by a county police agency.

Each of the services has some sort of rule that says “thou shalt obey the FARs” (not exactly in those words). If a military pilot violates an FAR, the FAA investigates the matter and turns the information over to the service for processing as they deem appropriate.

[///AMG]

Originally Posted by MikeD

Generally, ATC advises you of a "pilot deviation", as they call it. Some will give you a landline number to call (which I wouldn't), but generally, they report it through the appropriate service liaison to the FAA....generally an O-4/5 who is the service rep to the FAA. This is why on your DD-175/1801, you do not put a name or service number on it, just put "on file" in those blocks.

One reason you don't want you name given to them or want to call them, is especially important to those with FAA certs. Even though when piloting a military aircraft, you're NOT operating under the priviliges of your FAA certificates; the FAA can and has violated military pilots under their FAA certs for a violation that has occurred when flying a military plane........ie- when not operating under the privilege of the civil certs. That's why you don't give a name.

Thanks Mike, that's a better explanation than what I had heard previously

[mjg407]

Originally Posted by PeterPilot

Military aircraft are termed “public use”. As such, they are not regulated by the FAA. That same rule is available to all governments entities. There was a story not too long ago of an unregistered helicopter that crashed while being flown by a pilot without a pilot certificate and it was all legal because it was operated by a county police agency.

Each of the services has some sort of rule that says “thou shalt obey the FARs” (not exactly in those words). If a military pilot violates an FAR, the FAA investigates the matter and turns the information over to the service for processing as they deem appropriate.

That is correct, military aircraft, NASA, and us when we are spraying are Public Use aircraft. Meaning that the FAA can not ramp check a military aircraft, there is no requirement for an airworthiness certificate, annual inspection, etc. They (public use aircraft) also do not have a N-number.

[The Fez]

Thanks for the info guys!

[ian]

and crewmembers have to be strapped in for taxi/takeoff/below 10k/approach/landing

[///AMG]

Originally Posted by ian

and crewmembers have to be strapped in for taxi/takeoff/below 10k/approach/landing

That must be really hard for you

[ian]

Originally Posted by ///AMG

That must be really hard for you

especially when you have to piss on climbout or descent....

[HeyEng]

From our instructions on Freddy:

All crewmembers will have seat belts fastened during taxi and critical phases of flight. Fasten shoulder harness unless crew duties dictate otherwise (The flight engineer is exempt from wearing the shoulder harness during ground operations). For tactical/AR operations, all crewmembers and passengers will have seat belts fastened (unless authorized by the PIC or crew duties dictate otherwise). Crewmembers performing instructor or flight examiner duties are exempt from seat belt requirements if not occupying a primary crew position; however, they will have a seat available with an operable seat belt.

Oddly enough, in the Dover crash, the instructor FE was the only one to not have a back injury and he wasn't sitting down or buckled in at the time. Go figure.

We let crewmembers get up and around after we take off and are about 1K AGL.

[germb747]

Originally Posted by HeyEng

From our instructions on Freddy:

All crewmembers will have seat belts fastened during taxi and critical phases of flight. Fasten shoulder harness unless crew duties dictate otherwise (The flight engineer is exempt from wearing the shoulder harness during ground operations). For tactical/AR operations, all crewmembers and passengers will have seat belts fastened (unless authorized by the PIC or crew duties dictate otherwise). Crewmembers performing instructor or flight examiner duties are exempt from seat belt requirements if not occupying a primary crew position; however, they will have a seat available with an operable seat belt.

Oddly enough, in the Dover crash, the instructor FE was the only one to not have a back injury and he wasn't sitting down or buckled in at the time. Go figure.

We let crewmembers get up and around after we take off and are about 1K AGL.

HeyEng,

You know that the max speed within 4nm of the primary airport in Class D Airspace (Kelly), is 200KIAS. So why are we always overflying the field at 230KIAS at 1000' AGL? Do we have a waiver to those FARs, or does our OGV just not care?

[///AMG]

Originally Posted by germb747

HeyEng,

You know that the max speed within 4nm of the primary airport in Class D Airspace (Kelly), is 200KIAS. So why are we always overflying the field at 230KIAS at 1000' AGL? Do we have a waiver to those FARs, or does our OGV just not care?

I know we have a waiver at my field. We regularly break (overhead @ 800 AGL) at 350-400 indicated here....same with all other NAS that I know of

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by germb747

HeyEng,

You know that the max speed within 4nm of the primary airport in Class D Airspace (Kelly), is 200KIAS. So why are we always overflying the field at 230KIAS at 1000' AGL? Do we have a waiver to those FARs, or does our OGV just not care?

It would be either a waiver, or if the Dash 1 calls for it. For a big ole C-5, I would hope its faster rather than slower! (Or does it slow handle good?)

[germb747]

Originally Posted by MikeD

It would be either a waiver, or if the Dash 1 calls for it. For a big ole C-5, I would hope its faster rather than slower! (Or does it slow handle good?)

An approach speed around 114 at landing weights is not uncommon. The C-5 handles GREAT flying slow; although it can be a bit painful having to slow down like that on final. The 230KCAS is just the speed we use for practice tactical maneuvering.