F-35 basing political push - Luke AFB

[MikeD]

http://www.kfyi.com/pages/local_news...rticle=6156993

As a local resident from both the PHX and TUS areas, this story is of particular interest to me. Luke AFB is vying to be an F-35 training base as it's F-16 mission begins to wind down. This FY, two F-16 squadrons will close at Luke, and the base has attempted to be the primary training base for the F-35, losing that bid to Eglin AFB in Florida. It's now trying to be a secondary base for the up and coming F-16 replacement aircraft.

Personally, I think this is going to be very uphill battle. Though Luke has good range airspace available, it's negatives outweigh it's positives. The airspace in the PHX area is congested, even in the west valley. Severe encroachment from housing and neighborhoods has created a host of noise issues and complaints, as well as very restricted takeoff/landing patterns to the extent that live-heavyweight loads can only depart off of RW 3. These are similar problems not unique to Luke.....other bases have similar....but none to the extent of Luke and they seem to be exacerbated at Luke.

There was even talk a few years ago of closing Luke, and adding a runway to Gila Bend AFAF, building up its infrastructure, and making it the new Luke AFB. Not entirely a bad idea, since the bingo from Range 3/ETAC/NTAC would probably be pretty darn low.

Politically, Luke doesn't have a ton of protection either. McCain's influence in the Senate has waned, and even so, another popular base.....Williams AFB in the SE valley.....was put on the closed list in 1992. It's problems were PHX airspace congestion, as well as the long distance it took to get to the MOA's, allowing little time for training once there. I also personally think it was part of the AF's campaign to close good UPT bases such as it and Reese.......tinfoil hat time. But even with McCain in power then, and former Sen Barry Goldwater still a heavy influence, it still closed.

IMHO, Luke's days are numbered. Sad for a base that I remember going to as a kid to watch German AF F-104s, and USAF F-4s, F-15s and F-16s work the pattern at.

[ozziecat35]

Mike, I hope you're wrong, I live about 7 miles south of Luke on 99th ave and Lower Buckeye, and it's always a pleasure hearing the Vipers depart in the evening. I know there's a lot of support for it here in the valley (for obvious reasons). I think one of the main positives it has is the weather that AZ is known for in the flying world.

Secondary thought, forgive my ignorance, but can the F16 refuel in flight? If so, why not get the AFNG'er's at PHX involved and do some additional training on their way to West MOA's?

As an addition, I love the last quote in the article, "They fly over my house everyday, it's the sound of freedom." WOOT!

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by ozziecat35

Mike, I hope you're wrong, I live about 7 miles south of Luke on 99th ave and Lower Buckeye, and it's always a pleasure hearing the Vipers depart in the evening. I know there's a lot of support for it here in the valley (for obvious reasons). I think one of the main positives it has is the weather that AZ is known for in the flying world.

I hope I'm wrong too. But with shrinking budgets, and all of LUF's problems, I'm afraid to know that I might be right.

Secondary thought, forgive my ignorance, but can the F16 refuel in flight? If so, why not get the AFNG'er's at PHX involved and do some additional training on their way to West MOA's?

As an addition, I love the last quote in the article, "They fly over my house everyday, it's the sound of freedom." WOOT!

Yes, all the tactical aircraft are air refuel capable. The ANG at KPHX does do practice A/R with the LUF F-16s often. Problem is, not being an active duty unit, the tanker unit can't provide enough aircraft or coverage to do this. Plus, their aircraft are now getting tasked to overseas missions now that they have R-models that replaced their previous E-models. The overall idea is sound, but there are logistics problems that wouldn't make it possible and even training issues that wouldn't make it feasible.

[Hacker15e]

The fuel and time required to tank on a "local" sortie is usually more trouble than it is worth.

The encroachment issues at Luke is what will do it in. Too many "Sun City" developments all over the approach and departure patterns, with associated noise complaints, etc, I bet will outweigh bringing F-35 there...which is a LOUD aircraft, BTW.

I foresee a UAV mission out there instead.

[ozziecat35]

If I wanted to see UAV's, I woulda stayed in Sierra Vista...

Thanks for the replys Mike and Hacker.

[N826AW]

Originally Posted by ozziecat35

If I wanted to see UAV's, I woulda stayed in Sierra Vista...

Thanks for the replys Mike and Hacker.

I don't think the folks filing noise complaints out in the West Valley understand the financial ramifications to the communities should LUF not receive the F-35.

[mjg407]

Originally Posted by N826AW

I don't think the folks filing noise complaints out in the West Valley understand the financial ramifications to the communities should LUF not receive the F-35.

Everyone wants the money a base brings to their community, and then they all want to beatch about the noise. That's an advantage places like Lemore and Fallon have. Here's one from my old base in Whidbey Island.
http://www.goskagit.com/home/comment...ctober_3_2009/

And I've had them here, when fires have been raging in the foothills, of folks complaining the tankers are flying too low.

Americans love to bitch, that's for sure.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by Hacker15e

The fuel and time required to tank on a "local" sortie is usually more trouble than it is worth.

The encroachment issues at Luke is what will do it in. Too many "Sun City" developments all over the approach and departure patterns, with associated noise complaints, etc, I bet will outweigh bringing F-35 there...which is a LOUD aircraft, BTW.

I foresee a UAV mission out there instead.

Agree on the local ops as well as the encroachment. It's really is pretty bad for Luke, moreso than a number of other bases I've seen, for a combination of factors.

What's funny is that the AZ ANG, when they were first standing up their Pred unit, was looking for a home. Since that unit was a spinoff of the tanker unit in PHX (where the initial cadre came from), homes being considered at the time were Papago AAF, Luke, Gila Bend, and Silverbell AHP. Luke's WG/CC actually didn't want the mission there, even though there were going to be no planes involved. The ANG wanted to use the just-closed at the time facilities of the AF Reserve's 944th FW/302nd FS, which would've been great considering that there was an existing vault, squadron blgs, etc. Wouldn't be much more to add to it. But Luke didn't want it. So it eventually ended up at DMA.

[MikeD]

So now, supporters of Luke have created a group called "Fighter Country", supporting the future of Luke AFB and the F-35, since Luke has been identified as a "short list" contender for the F-35 along with Holloman AFB, NM. Holloman AFB (my former base) is in the middle of conversion from the F-117 to the F-22 mission, along with having a UAV mission there, among other missions. It's located next door the the vast White Sands Missile Range. What Holloman has that Luke doesn't, are encroachment issues from housing nearby.

Now though, the dirty tricks seem to be starting. Specifically, the movement of "noise zones" and "encroachment zones" further and further from the base, which are now affecting homeowners who previously lived a fair distance away from the base. This isn't right, IMHO. A letter from one, who lives 22 miles from the base! [bracket comments mine]:

Almost 7 years ago, my family built a one acre home 22 miles north of Luke. When we moved in, we had no restrictions and were not considered to be encroachers. In fact, our builder was issued a letter which stated that our development of Patton Place Estates was completely compatiible with the mission of Luke. Our subdivision went through the county approved parcel splits.

Almost a year later, we discovered that we had been placed in a crash zone and could not get a permit to perform new builds, rebuilds and/or repair. People in our area, who had to relocate for job transfers, some military, simply had to walk away from their mortgages.

The legislature enacted a grandfather clause to protect the existing home owners. [Attorney General] Terry Goddard took that away when he issued an AG's opinion stating that our development of over 400 homes was not a "real" development and therefore, we were not entitled to any grandfather protections.

We went to court and the government settled out of court and reinstituted the grandfather clause only to have Goddard go back to court and find a corrupt [AZ Superior Court] judge which stripped us of our property rights without any compensation. I agree that if we move next to the base, we get what we get. However, we had the Air Force's permission to live where we do and we are over 20 miles away and 8-12 miles over AUX 1 [an auxilliary airfield used for instrument approaches]. Rusty Mithcell, from Luke got the legislature to move the flight [flight corridor] line over Aux 1 to go right over our properties. If any of you fighter country [the group enacted to protect Luke] people have ever taken a civics course, you know that it is illegal to encumber people's land after they buy it, without compensation.

Our people would willingly move. But we cannot walk away from our mortgages without devastating effects. I have put over 200,000 dollars into my property and owe 173,000 on my mortgage.

We are not concerned about jet noise from the F-16's they do not bother us. However, we have 3 studies done on the F35 which shows that it is several times louder than the F-16. We have been to the CDC and Valpariso, Florida [home of Eglin AFB] and we are convinced of the following

1. The F-35 produces noise which is 20-40% above the level which causes permanent damage to hearing and to the central nervous system.

2. There is one test which shows that the F-35 is not louder than the F-16 and that is the Edwards tie down test in which the test did not allow the F-35 to take off and land or do other manuvers which produces loud noise. Goddard and Peoria mayor Barrett have said the Edwards test is the one that will be used. The fix is in and we know we are going to lose- But so will new groups of people in Sun city, Peoria, Glendale, etc who do not even know what is coming. And please remember, the laws of physics dont change in Airzona, we have the test data that clearly shows the danger to us.

The state has committed an eminent domain action against us. We are willing to move for fair and just compensation. But it is easier for the state and organizations like fighter country to simply force people off of their land and not pay for it. Do you think that I would have bought my land if knew this would happen? I want out of this. But I live in a state which is corrupt and makes up the laws as we go along. The Constitution means nothing to people like the west vallley mayors and Goddard.

[The Fez]

Just saw an article in the "Desert Lightning" that the 162FW is in the running to get the F-35. Interesting, given the fact that the aircraft will be operating out of a civilian airport right in the middle of town. You must have to speak English to make a complaint...

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by The Fez

Just saw an article in the "Desert Lightning" that the 162FW is in the running to get the F-35. Interesting, given the fact that the aircraft will be operating out of a civilian airport right in the middle of town. You must have to speak English to make a complaint...

Yeah, heard that they weren't expecting it too. Don't get me wrong, I'm all about slapping people who move next to an airport/air base, then complain about the noise. But there are limits to it. In the above letter, if all true, its freaking ludicrous to believe that if you live 22 miles away from a base, that you'd be put into a "no build" or noise zone! That's going way beyond by taking the politics of keeping the base open, and now truly infringing on people's personal rights.

My opinion is that if a base truly doesn't have a mission anymore, then it isn't needed and should be gotten rid of. I'm all about preserving history, but not at the cost of fraud/waste/abuse, which is the very thing the military does, yet harps against. And keeping a base open solely as "welfare" for the local economy is just that; bases are not there solely to prop up the local town nearby. As much as I loved the old Williams AFB, it got closed because it was no longer needed as a UPT base. Sure, I would've loved for the AF to close Laughlin or Vance instead, as Willie was in a great location. But the reality was that the MOA working areas were too far away, the congestion and urban sprawl of the metro PHX area was moving that direction, and the AF wasn't producing pilots much during this time of the post-fall of the Eastern Block / Warsaw Pact. So Willie got closed. What really sucks is that there were all these grand plans for Willie as a reliever airport to PHX, but nearly 17 years after its closing, there's still not a heck of alot going on there, so far as the flightline side is concerned.....no more than any other average GA airport, which Willie towers over size-wise.

[The Fez]

I hear ya Mike. What really irks me is people's attitudes towards military aviation these days. Everyone wants to see the Thunderbirds and Blue Angels. Bases get jam-packed during airshows. But no one wants a base in their town.

An occasional F-16 passes over someone's backyard at 10,000 ft and you'd think by their complaints that it was 50' AGL at Mach 2. Whatever happened to people looking up and saying/thinking, "I'm glad those guys are up there, I'll sleep safe tonite." ??? It's like the public wants a strong military but doesn't want to hear it, see it, or send their sons and daughters to support it.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by The Fez

I hear ya Mike. What really irks me is people's attitudes towards military aviation these days. Everyone wants to see the Thunderbirds and Blue Angels. Bases get jam-packed during airshows. But no one wants a base in their town.

An occasional F-16 passes over someone's backyard at 10,000 ft and you'd think by their complaints that it was 50' AGL at Mach 2. Whatever happened to people looking up and saying/thinking, "I'm glad those guys are up there, I'll sleep safe tonite." ??? It's like the public wants a strong military but doesn't want to hear it, see it, or send their sons and daughters to support it.

You know who are the worst complainers about jet noise or noise from airbases? Retired military folks. Often Colonels/Generals and senior NCOs, who know which direct numbers to call to complain to.

[bunk22]

Originally Posted by MikeD

You know who are the worst complainers about jet noise or noise from airbases? Retired military folks. Often Colonels/Generals and senior NCOs, who know which direct numbers to call to complain to.

Yep. A few of the biggest complainers at NAS North Island in San Diego are retired Admirals. One inparticular has been a problem child. Sad being the airbase was there first and they should understand why the noise is there.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by bunk22

Yep. A few of the biggest complainers at NAS North Island in San Diego are retired Admirals. One inparticular has been a problem child. Sad being the airbase was there first and they should understand why the noise is there.

I completely agree. And IMO, these people are worse than the civilians who do the same thing.