Kara "Revlon" Hultgreen

[bunk22]

Originally Posted by Hacker15e

Doesn't surprise me.

The LSO can see that something unusual is happening, and is simply being directive to help.

This isn't any different than the RSU calling out "in the flare, go around, use burners" at an SUPT base....or a wingman calling "abort" or "recover".....or a WSO calling "go around!"

I have never landed on a boat, so I don't know what the standard LSO contract is. I have to imagine that such comm is standard when the margin for error is just so slim and the LSO can see that things aren't going as planned.

I was a squadron qualified paddles so I have some knowledge of being an LSO. The wave-off call was mandatory...a line-up call is mandatory....a power call is mandatory....the gear up call was advisory or simply trying to help a bad situation.

I met Kara twice, once while stashed at Top Gun and once in Pensacola, and I'm not saying I knew her. I've heard the same though, a below average pilot as far jet flying goes, pushed into the cockpit as a post 91 Tailhook way for the Navy to heal itself in the eyes of the public. I don't know though the mishap board did conclude it was pilot error. Unfortunetly, flying behind the boat is not always a cut and dry way of doing business. A compressor stall and engine failure IM-IC (in the middle to in close) is going to be a very, very difficult thing to do deal with, regardless of who is behind the stick....especially if you lack single engine training.

Back at VRC-30, I served with a female pilot who was below par...well below par. She eventually got to average but took 3 to 4 times as long as anyone else. Luckily, she was flying a two seat aircraft with two sets of controls...then again, I was the nugget while she was the AC. It's known now that her performance in advanced flight training was way below average. She had issues from the start, multiple downs and in reality, should never have been winged....or at least a male counterpart would not have been winged. My old Skipper of VRC-30 was the Ops O at VT-4 which was the advanced squadron for all E2/C2 pilots at the time. He tried his best to boot her but word came down that she would make it through no matter what....NO MATTER WHAT!!. Granted, she wasn't going to be a jet jock but still, a tailhook pilot and made the Navy look good by having another female tailhooker. Maybe the powers that be were right, she never had a mishap due to pilot error on her part (much better pilots have) and she always made it back. Just took her much, much longer than the average joe.

The problem with female pilots are they are few and far between. Might be only 10, a very small number, but when 2 are bad...which my guess is 10-20% is the norm for all pilots, they tend to stick out more. I've flown with several female pilots, both in the C-2 and in the T-34C as an IP. I've seen both good and bad, more good than bad. But putting someone where they don't belong was not a good thing to do, at all.

[bunk22]

Originally Posted by calcapt

I lost a very good friend who happened to be black to an E-2C accident on the USS Midway in the late 80's. We went through AOCS together in Pensacola and he flat out could not swim. He somehow passed swim quals despite being unable to swim up to standards. The was a lot of political pressure from local and national politicians back home in New York and the system responded by getting him through a program that he did not qualify for. At the time, Chris was one of two blacks in a class of 61. Chris would of made an outstanding doctor, attorney, CPA or whatever he wanted to do, he just couldn't swim.

The accident off the USS Midway claimed his life due to drowning. Of a crew of five, three survived due largely to swimming skills.

As a society we need to be fair minded with regard to gender and race; however, that shouldn't take away the responsibility of determining objective based suitability for skill specific situations.

When I was a stud at VAW-120 back in 97-98, a sim instructor was on that mishap. It was a ditch off a cold cat shot or something to that effect, no? I recall him saying that one of the NFO's could be seen in the ditching hatch go walk back into the aircraft and it was assumed to help the pilot or co-pilot. I remember him saying that he wasn't a good swimmer.

[Hacker15e]

Originally Posted by calcapt

I can assure you that the country was more ready for Kara than the community was. Had Kara shown up without the trailblazing attitude with media in tow, and just accepted her calling as "a pilot" rather than "a special pilot", she would of been accepted more readily. Kara would of done herself and her gender a huge favor by not accepting any special treatment or passing grades on substandard performances which happened. As I said earlier, it was just a dysfunctional system that allowed this to happen - and that ultimately hurt Kara, her family and the Navy. It certainly didn't make it easier to dispel the inaccurate perception of female pilots lacking in some way. It's just a very sad and avoidable tragedy.

Very good words.

That reflects, unfortunately, the situation with some other female pilots and WSOs I've served with, too. If they weren't so overly concerned with adding "female" in front of their occupation, as well as making sure the media was there every step of the way, they would have probably fit in to the clan much better.

Similarly, I have also personally seen external pressures impact if a student makes it through a formal flying training program. I've been fortunate that I've never had to be part of any of those situations as an IP or supervisor.

Neither of those does any good for either the person involved or the group they are trying to join. Unfortunately, most of the people involved at the time can't see beyond the immediate goal they are trying to meet.

Naturally, there are many "good apples" that significantly outweigh the bad here. The vast majoriy of female fighter pilots I've served and flown with are just the same as the men, with skills and personalities that cover the same standard deviation bellcurve.

But it is the bad apples that you remember, and put a stain on the situation.

[calcapt]

Originally Posted by bunk22

When I was a stud at VAW-120 back in 97-98, a sim instructor was on that mishap. It was a ditch off a cold cat shot or something to that effect, no? I recall him saying that one of the NFO's could be seen in the ditching hatch go walk back into the aircraft and it was assumed to help the pilot or co-pilot. I remember him saying that he wasn't a good swimmer.

It was a bolter. The nugget co-pilot got the power levers in the ground range and couldn't get the power back in. The aircraft settled off the angle deck into the water. The props cut the front of the aircraft off but the senior pilot got out - the co-pilot didn't. My friend Chris, was one of three in the back. The other two got out and he didn't. His helmet can be seen coming out of the water a few times but never stayed surfaced. The rescue swimmers would not enter the aircraft due to getting caught inside as the aircraft sunk. Two lost with no recovered bodies.

[///AMG]

Originally Posted by calcapt

It was a bolter. The nugget co-pilot got the power levers in the ground range and couldn't get the power back in. The aircraft settled off the angle deck into the water.

As in "eased guns to land" or did they have some problem with the throttle itself?

[Skillet]

Originally Posted by Hacker15e

Fortunately the USAF was able to avoid having a similar scenario to Revlon.

"Tally" Flynn was the USAF's first female fighter driver. She followed very shortly after Hultgreen, going to the F-15E.

Yeah I was a crew chief in the 335th when Jeannie Flynn came to SJ - she was with the 334th or 336th anyway when I worked EOR she would always taxi in with her black visor down and 02 mask on, I'd hook up and say hey sir and she'd come back in her voice. The WSO would always just laugh - she was always really nice (except for that trick). There was alot of hoop-la with her being there and plenty of added stress but she obviously handle it well and definately deserved to be there.

As far as Lt. Hultgreen bottom line is bad things can happen real quick in aviation and unfortnately it happend to her.

[calcapt]

Originally Posted by ///AMG

As in "eased guns to land" or did they have some problem with the throttle itself?

Apparently there was a power lever lock that should of been engaged but was not. It prevented the power levers from inadvertently slipping into the ground range which is exactly what happened. The co-pilot was unable to recognize the power levers needed to be brought out of ground detent (pushed down or lifted up???) and was unable to push them forward due to a mechanical gate. Afterward, there was a major emphasis on this checklist item that was apparently ignored on a regular basis by many crews.

[bunk22]

Originally Posted by calcapt

Apparently there was a power lever lock that should of been engaged but was not. It prevented the power levers from inadvertently slipping into the ground range which is exactly what happened. The co-pilot was unable to recognize the power levers needed to be brought out of ground detent (pushed down or lifted up???) and was unable to push them forward due to a mechanical gate. Afterward, there was a major emphasis on this checklist item that was apparently ignored on a regular basis by many crews.

I was a COD pilot for many years and both the E2/C2 had the same power lever lock. Anyway, you had to lift up to go into or out of the ground power range.

[calcapt]

Originally Posted by bunk22

I was a COD pilot for many years and both the E2/C2 had the same power lever lock. Anyway, you had to lift up to go into or out of the ground power range.

Did you routinely engage the power lover lock for landing? Was carrier ops different than ground ops? I recall the surviving pilot saying that the co-pilot was pushing for all he was worth to get the power levers forward to no avail. Once he realized he had them in ground mode it was too late. It was 2 or 3 am when this accident occurred.

[bunk22]

Originally Posted by calcapt

Did you routinely engage the power lover lock for landing? Was carrier ops different than ground ops? I recall the surviving pilot saying that the co-pilot was pushing for all he was worth to get the power levers forward to no avail. Once he realized he had them in ground mode it was too late. It was 2 or 3 am when this accident occurred.

We engaged the power lever lock only for boat ops. Part of the check list though some have forgot and it almost cost a crew a few years ago. The pilot went into the ground range IC-AR and though he got it out, they nearly had a ramp strike. The video was ugly.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by U-Dog

Just for clarification: In the eyes of the FAA, the F-14 'IS' considered to be a center-line thrust aircraft.

Trust me, the aircraft sure doesn't act like a center-line thrust airplane when you loose an engine, but that's the way the FAA looked at it in my case.

Seems the FAA had changed their thinking on this. Now they consider, for centerline thrust restrictions placed on a Multi-Engine Class rating or not, the F-14 and A-37 Dragonfly aircraft to not be centerline-thrust restricted. Thats cool that it's at least acknowledged now.

Airplane Multiengine Class Rating Limited To Center Thrust

Airplane multiengine class ratings are issued based on either the successful completion of an
FAA practical test or on military qualification. A class rating issued for an airplane for which
no minimum control speed has been established by the manufacturer, shall be limited to center thrust. The aircraft listed below are aircraft which are center thrust limited. A listing of specific makes and models of military aircraft for which a center thrust limitation is not
required is also provided.

The FAA General Aviation and Commercial Division, AFS-800, determines any modifications
to these lists. When a determination is made by AFS-800, the manufacturer's data and 14 CFR part 23 or part 25 criteria are used.

With Center Thrust Limitation
1. Cessna 336/337, T-37
2. Fairchild Republic A-10 Thunderbolt
3. General Dynamics F-111
4. Grumman A-6E Intruder
5. McDonnell-Douglas F-4 Phantom
6. McDonnell-Douglas F-15 Eagle
7. Northrop/McDonnell-Douglas F-18A Hornet
8. Northrop T-38 Talon
9. Rockwell International T2 Buckeye

Without Limitation
1. Cessna A-37 Dragonfly
2. Grumman American F-14 Tomcat

[Blackhawk]

A different view on the subject.
The Army had a different view on women entering combat aircraft. If you noticed there was no fanfare. We actually had females flying "combat" aircraft (not sure what the difference is when you can be just as shot down in a UH-60 as an AH-64), before the other services but they did not make the news. My wife was the first female to command an air cav troop, but it never made the news. She and the Army wanted it that way.
The Army did not start to "push" females into combat aircraft. As a matter of fact, initially it was a little unfair. A female could turn down an AH-64 slot, a male could not. I'm pretty sure this did not last long.
My wife actually met prejudice from a very few instructors as she went through the OH-58D course who wanted to prove that she did not belong there. Mind you, she was not fresh out of flight school. She already had a tour in Korea under her belt as a UH-1 driver. Her primary instructor in the OH-58D was great, but she had a few guest IPs who would give her the old "how many rivets are in the tail boom" routine just so they could brag that she really did not belong.
The Army also did not seem to mind disciplining female pilots with little fanfare. I don't want to get into too many details to protect the innocent, but in the 90's one of the "first females" was relieved of her command for sleeping around with one of her pilots (no, this was not my wife). This was about the same time as Kelly Flynn, but never made the news.

[U-Dog]

Originally Posted by MikeD

Seems the FAA had changed their thinking on this. Now they consider, for centerline thrust restrictions placed on a Multi-Engine Class rating or not, the F-14 and A-37 Dragonfly aircraft to not be centerline-thrust restricted. Thats cool that it's at least acknowledged now.

Thanks Mike - When did the FAA make this change

[Firebird2XC]

Originally Posted by Blackhawk

The Army also did not seem to mind disciplining female pilots with little fanfare. I don't want to get into too many details to protect the innocent, but in the 90's one of the "first females" was relieved of her command for sleeping around with one of her pilots (no, this was not my wife). This was about the same time as Kelly Flynn, but never made the news.

I was in Army aviation myself, and saw several female aviators/officers, etc, of all degrees of skill. Typically, it seemed they were either weak to mediocre sticks or REALLY good. Some just got it, some didn't. One couldn't fly straight and level- in a Blackhawk. She's flying civilian medevac somewhere in PA now.

The Army had a good approach to this- they just made it clear that if you had a habit or mentality that made gender an issue, you stopped it. My first line battalion had a female company CO that I'd have followed anywhere- she was a good stick and better officer, by reputation and by practice.

One of her platoon leaders was a putz and seemed to bat her eyelashes through the day to day. She wasn't as blatant as the term implies, but it was certainly there. Lousy stick, too, and when she busted her PC ride she quickly made sure it was 'corrected'.

I worked with a crewchief for several years who could have had the entire company sitting up and begging but made her mark by being an awesome wrench and 'one of the gang'. I'd have put my life in her hands any day.

When it comes to females breaking new trails in traditionally male roles in the military, I'd say a can-do, businesslike attitude without taking themselves overly seriously is a must. There's an adjustment period involved. It CAN work.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by U-Dog

Thanks Mike - When did the FAA make this change

I don't know, I'll have to check the date of that pub. At least its one sensible thing the FAA has done. Only thing that sucks, is that for the A-37.....maybe some Dominican/Guatamalan/Colombian/Peruvian AF pilots seeking an FAA certificate can take advantage of it. And for the F-14, maybe someone that hasn't gotten their mil comp yet, or is stuck with the centerline-thrust restriction.......or even maybe an Islamic Republic of Iran AF pilot seeking an FAA certificate........can take advantage of it.