OTH Discharge?

[chipdouglas]

Don't know if this is the right forum for this; here goes anyway...

I have wanted to be an airline pilot for over a decade now, and have watched from the outside as the profession has evolved through various cycles (pay, job demand, etc.). Regardless of its present state, I still want to be one because I love to fly (just short of a PPL at the moment). Even if I don't do it professionally I'll find some way to do it recreationally.

I am probably going to get an OTH (Other Than Honorable: an "administrative separation") Discharge from the USMC Reserves for failure to attend monthly drills. I'm not going to build an elaborate defense here; only say that I've served honorably for 18 months enlisted in a ground combat unit (9 months active) but my unit is not willing to work around college (I am one semester from graduation) as advertised. I should be graduated right now but my military obligations have already delayed me a year and a half and promise to delay me another year and a half, and I am not willing to do this again and come back at age 27 to kill my last semester as an undergrad.

I know that at the higher levels, job screening for commercial airline pilots is a process that involves a LOT of scrutiny. I want to know how damaging this discharge will be in my quest to find employment as a pilot before I go on food stamps and take out a quarter-million in loans to get an ATP cert and build hours. Will it be impossible or astronomically unlikely to get on with a real commercial airline with an OTH?

Please, if you aren't familiar with the OTH discharge or its consequences in the civilian aviation world, don't respond. PLEASE DON'T GUESS or "go with your gut." I am looking for people with anecdotal/experiential information (employers/interviewers, people who have gone through or know someone who has gone through a similar situation). Also, I realize many of you will have a problem with my decision and that's respectable. All I ask is that if you have questions, want to know more about my situation, want to give me a piece of your mind or relay any kind of information that doesn't directly answer my question, do so in a PM if you absolutely must rather than in your post. Thanks.

[surreal1221]

I'm really not too sure how many of us here who have military experience, and have also sat on an interview board at any of the popular 135 or 121 operators.

From what I have seen though, an OTH may draw certain questions, such as wanting you to explain why you have the OTH, instead of an honorable.

Also if I'm not mistaken remember that an OTH can be turned into an Honorable after a certain period of time after your seperation. I'm not too up anymore on that process, or what the waiting period is for - but it's something I'd recommend looking into.

I wish you the best of luck. I hate to see fellow service members getting played and treated like #### because they want to further their education, but - such is the military climate we presently enjoy. Seeing enlisted members pursueing higher education was always an issue for heartburn out of my unit. One of the leading factors in my ultimate seperation from the Air Force.

[surreal1221]

Careful, I can't suggest making double posts.

[Cruise]

OTH discharges happen for various reasons....it's by no means, a bad conduct/ dishonorable discharge. I wouldn't let it stop you from pursuing your goals....although, it just might be an extra hurdle to overcome.

[Bumblebee]

Originally Posted by chipdouglas

Don't know if this is the right forum for this; here goes anyway...

I have wanted to be an airline pilot for over a decade now, and have watched from the outside as the profession has evolved through various cycles (pay, job demand, etc.). Regardless of its present state, I still want to be one because I love to fly (just short of a PPL at the moment). Even if I don't do it professionally I'll find some way to do it recreationally.

I am probably going to get an OTH (Other Than Honorable: an "administrative separation") Discharge from the USMC Reserves for failure to attend monthly drills. I'm not going to build an elaborate defense here; only say that I've served honorably for 18 months enlisted in a ground combat unit (9 months active) but my unit is not willing to work around college (I am one semester from graduation) as advertised. I should be graduated right now but my military obligations have already delayed me a year and a half and promise to delay me another year and a half, and I am not willing to do this again and come back at age 27 to kill my last semester as an undergrad.

I know that at the higher levels, job screening for commercial airline pilots is a process that involves a LOT of scrutiny. I want to know how damaging this discharge will be in my quest to find employment as a pilot before I go on food stamps and take out a quarter-million in loans to get an ATP cert and build hours. Will it be impossible or astronomically unlikely to get on with a real commercial airline with an OTH?

Please, if you aren't familiar with the OTH discharge or its consequences in the civilian aviation world, don't respond. PLEASE DON'T GUESS or "go with your gut." I am looking for people with anecdotal/experiential information (employers/interviewers, people who have gone through or know someone who has gone through a similar situation). Also, I realize many of you will have a problem with my decision and that's respectable. All I ask is that if you have questions, want to know more about my situation, want to give me a piece of your mind or relay any kind of information that doesn't directly answer my question, do so in a PM if you absolutely must rather than in your post. Thanks.

what will the discharge be?
General, General Under Honorable, Less than Honorable? Feel free to PM if you want. I could even ask around here to see how it would be viewed.

[AZBigDog]

Check your PM's

[pfitmx15]

Chip,

I've been in the army for about six years now.

First of all im not here to scrutinize your decison. A couple of suggestions though. First I would contact JAG and ask them what the reprocussions of this would be. I've had some friends in the army be seperated on other than honorable conditions but after six months or a year it turns to honorable. I know that sounds kinda funny but I would seriously contact JAG and see if this is the lay of the land throughout the military or if this is just an army policy.

[UPSpilot]

Just realize that if you have aspirations to try for a major airline, that the majority of major pilots are prior military. I think your OTH discharge will be frowned upon greatly at the major level.

[chipdouglas]

Probably Other Than Honorable (same as "Less Than Honorable" but not Dishonorable or Bad Conduct) but I'm going to try and upgrade to General Under Honorable (if not Honorable) because of some recruitment/contract disputes that kind of got the ball rolling on this whole debacle.

BTW, as much as I'd like for it to be true, there is no such thing as an "automatic upgrade" of an OTH. This is a persistent myth about military separation that is unfortunately not true.

[woodreau]

Airlines are probably going to want to see your DD-214 not just the member copy 1 - they will probably want to see copy 4 that characterizes your discharge in block 24 (OTH) , they will want to see your 3 letter separation code in block 26. I have no idea which pub "decodes" those 3 letter.

You can try to google the 3 letter separation code and see what sites come up.

When I interviewed at one airline, they checked to see what my block 26 code was and they had a secret decoder ring/sheet of paper. The HR interviewer said, as long as the code didn't say the military wouldn't take me back, I was okay. - his words.

[Mike Lewis]

I remember about ten years ago when Kelly Flinn - the first female B-52 pilot - was discharged after adultery and she got a General Discharge. I was trying to find out if she ever made it with the airlines or not, as that might be an indicator of whether you could get into the airlines or not. I'm not going to go into that whole situation except to say that she wasn't alone as a pilot to get discharged with a General Discharge that year, so I would think there might be some hope.

I would say though, based on what you said here, you have already done a few things in your favor. You owned it and you are honest about it. The fact that you said "I screwed up but I learned from it" I think is the best approach you could take in an interview.

I'm not working for an airline, but the few times I have had to interview people who had problems in the past, the ones who say "I just screwed up but man did I learn a lot from it" got another shot whereas the ones who say "Man, I was framed; it wasn't my fault; I was at the wrong place and they were out to get me; 10 other guys did it but I was the only one who got busted" don't get another shot. Why? Because as a hiring manager, I care more about how you reacted to a bad situation than the bad situation itself.

So, I'd say if it does come up, keep the same attitude you have right now. Own it, don't try to make excuses, and explain how you learned from it and won't a similar mistake again in the future.

[H46Bubba]

Chip, Were you previously on active duty before transfering to the reserves?

[beis77]

Originally Posted by woodreau

Airlines are probably going to want to see your DD-214 not just the member copy 1 - they will probably want to see copy 4 that characterizes your discharge in block 24 (OTH) , they will want to see your 3 letter separation code in block 26. I have no idea which pub "decodes" those 3 letter.

You can try to google the 3 letter separation code and see what sites come up.

When I interviewed at one airline, they checked to see what my block 26 code was and they had a secret decoder ring/sheet of paper. The HR interviewer said, as long as the code didn't say the military wouldn't take me back, I was okay. - his words.

I'm not sure what the USMC equivalent is, but in the USAF the MPF (Military Personnel flight) is the agency that issues the 3 letter separation code, and can tell you what they mean. I would imagine the USMC equivalent (personnel office) could give you the same.

[H46Bubba]

Originally Posted by beis77

I'm not sure what the USMC equivalent is, but in the USAF the MPF (Military Personnel flight) is the agency that issues the 3 letter separation code, and can tell you what they mean. I would imagine the USMC equivalent (personnel office) could give you the same.

They're called re-enlistment classification codes. There's different codes for different discharges. It's listed like this(RE-3) on the DD-214.

[USMC-SGT]

OR..I dont think this one has been suggested yet. You could try actually serving out your commitment honorably instead of "other" than honorably.

We all know the military schedule sucks and they do not want to work with you on typically anything but when you signed up you are signing up for whats behind door number three which is a big unknown. So they wont work with your schedule...dont re-enlist in 6 years when your contract is up. I dont want to cherry coat it like everyone else here did because I have seen it many times. 18 months is not alot of time to put in to throw in the towell yet. Talk to your NCOs, SNCOS, talk to your unit commander, request mast do what it takes to see if you can work something out.

Im personally not impressed with the idea of anything besides an honorable discharge and I would hope that EVERY hiring board would feel the same way. There are many reasons to get out of the Marines for various reasons without an honorable discharge but under the right circumstances they are general or medical and not OTH or dishonorable.

[USMC-SGT]

Originally Posted by chipdouglas

All I ask is that if you have questions, want to know more about my situation, want to give me a piece of your mind or relay any kind of information that doesn't directly answer my question, do so in a PM if you absolutely must rather than in your post. Thanks.

I missed this part, I guess its all out there now. A mod can delete this if they want.

[JT ATC]

I'm trying to figure out why you couldn't attend one weekend a month. I have hundreds of people in my unit that are in college and they are always there.

As far as getting an OTH discharge, it's not the greatest thing an employer wants to see, but it's not the worst either. I think your reasoning of "I didn't want to show up for one weekend because it slowed down my college" isn't going to fly. I relayed this story to my mom-in-law because she has been doing interviews for years and she said that it appears to her that you have a problem with fulfilling obligations.

You signed the contract, then let something else take priority over that contract. Not to mention you are probably using the GI bill, but not fulfilling your obligation to Uncle Sam.

In the grand scheme of things...what's a year and a half really?

So to answer your question...is it impossible to get an airline job with an OTH...no. But it would be extremely difficult.

[UPSpilot]

Originally Posted by Mike Lewis

I remember about ten years ago when Kelly Flinn - the first female B-52 pilot - was discharged after adultery and she got a General Discharge. I was trying to find out if she ever made it with the airlines or not, as that might be an indicator of whether you could get into the airlines or not. I'm not going to go into that whole situation except to say that she wasn't alone as a pilot to get discharged with a General Discharge that year, so I would think there might be some hope.

I would say though, based on what you said here, you have already done a few things in your favor. You owned it and you are honest about it. The fact that you said "I screwed up but I learned from it" I think is the best approach you could take in an interview.

I'm not working for an airline, but the few times I have had to interview people who had problems in the past, the ones who say "I just screwed up but man did I learn a lot from it" got another shot whereas the ones who say "Man, I was framed; it wasn't my fault; I was at the wrong place and they were out to get me; 10 other guys did it but I was the only one who got busted" don't get another shot. Why? Because as a hiring manager, I care more about how you reacted to a bad situation than the bad situation itself.

So, I'd say if it does come up, keep the same attitude you have right now. Own it, don't try to make excuses, and explain how you learned from it and won't a similar mistake again in the future.

She is an A-300 F/O at UPS. The female in charge of HR who was directly responsible for her hiring was fired by UPS as a result of her unilateral decision to hire her.

[SeanD]

I didnt know HR was a main hiring factor at an airline. I thought it was a direct decision by a chief pilot within the company who then passes the decision to HR to offer employment.

[FAA_ATC]

Originally Posted by chipdouglas

I am probably going to get an OTH....discharge from the USMC Reserves for failure to attend monthly drills.....I've served honorably for 18 months enlisted in a ground combat unit (9 months active) but my unit is not willing to work around college (I am one semester from graduation) as advertised......I am not willing to do this...
I know that at the higher levels, job screening for commercial airline pilots is a process that involves a LOT of scrutiny. I want to know how damaging this discharge will be...

When did the Marine Corps (NOT your recruiter) guarantee you would have the opportunity to go to college?

Ask yourself, if you were the hiring authority for an airline, would you hire the guy with an Honorable discharge or the guy who has to explain why he didn't get an honorable discharge?

[Hacker15e]

Originally Posted by Mike Lewis

I remember about ten years ago when Kelly Flinn - the first female B-52 pilot - was discharged after adultery and she got a General Discharge. I was trying to find out if she ever made it with the airlines or not, as that might be an indicator of whether you could get into the airlines or not.

Flinn resigned her Commission and that allowed her to have a General Discharge.

She was hired at ASA relatively soon after she got out of the USAF and flew there for some time (I think I saw her on a flight I took out of Atlanta on an Embraer back about '99, but I'm not 100% certain). The last I heard as of a couple years ago she was married with a new name and flying at UPS.

With respect to the original poster...I don't know how you got into a situation where you have to choose between finishing your college degree on some timeline and being discharged from your reserve unit in OTH conditions. Regardless, seems to me that there has got to be another angle to this whole thing. You identified the problem yourself -- "I'm not willing to come back as a 27 year old...."

IMHO you're not making the correct decision if you are choosing to have a questionable military discharge rather than to delay completing your degree. You can attempt to rationalize it all you want, but in the big picture you are simply setting yourself up for problems later in life. VERY short-sighted decisionmaking here.

One will require you to explain yourself for the rest of your employment career. The other one wil cost you...I don't know what it will cost you, but it won't be as much as having an other-than-honorable discharge.

I know you asked for "piece of mind" posts to be in PM, but this just needs to be said in public. Sorry.

[Firebird2XC]

When I was still active duty, my Brigade Commander was a full bird who'd periodically read a letter from one of his former soldiers.

The letter was a request for help. Apparently the young trooper had been caught doing something illegal and got a Dishonorable Discharge.

It made his life very, very hard.

Any discharge other than Honorable, General Under Honorable Conditions (ie, administrative non-punitive), or Medical will HUGELY affect your life and may make life as you know it very difficult.

That shiny college degree won't mean SQUAT if your employer says "Let's see that DD-214!" and sees anything other than Honorable or Honorable Conditions on that form.

I got stop-lossed in 2005 and wound up doing a YEAR past my the end of my contract- on active duty, in Iraq. I was PISSED. In the end, however, there was nothing I do but shut up and take it. I hated the fact that 'my' life was delayed yet another year. I was 27 when I got out, too. Same as you're facing. Now, about two years later, my life is on track, I have a great job with real potential.. and things will be fine.

Relax, slow down, and deal with first things first. Get the *Honorable* discharge, deal with the fact that your government lied to you, and then when they let you go, run fast and don't look back.

[calcapt]

Fact not hearsay: An OTH discharge will have negative implications getting hired with a major airline - not impossible, but almost.

[H46Bubba]

Originally Posted by Firebird2XC

Any discharge other than Honorable, General Under Honorable Conditions (ie, administrative non-punitive), or Medical will HUGELY affect your life and may make life as you know it very difficult.

Why would a medical discharge HUGELY affect your life and may make life difficult? For those that have been wounded, or are amputees, might have a difficut time readjusting. I happen to have a medical discharge. My DD-214 says Honorable Discharge. You need to be careful explaining these things. A DD-214 won't say medical discharge. It will be explained in the remarks and the RE code will reflect not being medically qualified anymore for military service.

[Wittmandriver]

If the Marine Reserves are like the active Navy, and I think they are, here is what will happen. You will be Notified, Counseled, and you must respond to your ADSEP. If you fall under the entitlement to present your case to an Admin Sep board, (the guidelines are in the MILPERSMAN), then you will need to elect to have it. If not, tough luck. That board will decide what is going to happen. Sometimes this happens after MAST or Office Hours. Keep in mind, this is the Navy side, but I think Marines fall under this. The board almost always goes with the CO's recommendation.

Look, think about it this way. Do you think an Airline will want to hire someone who has a problem with showing up to work? I sympathize with your plight, as I want to fly for a living really bad, but I am not going to risk getting kicked out for it. I will wait 6 more years when I retire. When I interviewed at SkyWest (I got out for 3 years and came back in) and got a job as an A&P, my interviewer wanted to see my DD214. In any case, if you do get your ADSEP and even turn it into honorable, which there are procedures to do in the MILPERSMAN, and you are in an interview, then prepare what you are going to say and blame yourself and only yourself and tell the interviewer how you have changed, because the Marines did not tell you to not be at where you were appointed to be. That was your choice. I would try to fix it, if I were you, if you can. Fullfill your obligation-you signed it. I hear this every day at work. ADSEP's are not good for the future.

Tough love

Wittmandriver