advice...

[lintt]

hello everyone, i need some advice here from you guys and espeicially the military controllers. a little background though, ive been in the army about 6 years and have 3 CTO's. im currently working on my 4th in Iraq.

anyways at the new facility im at ive found numerous safety hazerds. specifically controllers not following the .65 and putting pilots lives at risk, i can go into detail if you wish im just trying to summerize here so i dont bore you all to death. when they have tried to train me to do these things that are against the .65 i have told them i wont do it and showed them the appropriete part in the .65. i have been told by 1 of my trainers that if i feel its a safety hazerd then i dont have to do it. another trainer doesnt care he just wants me to do what he says. also there are no LOA's which would allow them to do these things.

when i said something to all of them at the same time they just laughed and smiled. even though i have showed them in the .65 they refuse to correct their actions and continue to do these things and let the other trainees continue as well. even the facility cheif is doing some of these things!!! the level of apathay they have astounds me.

so my questions are, what would be the best course of action here, since im in the military if i take this and make an issue of it i will get fried, i have no doubt about that. and its not like i can just quit. but i cant let this go, they are putting pilots lives at risk with improper procedures and in my opinion its only a matter of time before they kill someone. what would be the best way possible to handle this?

im sorry to bring this to your boards but im really at a lose here. any advice would be greatly appriciated. thank you for your time.

[H46Bubba]

I'd definitely take it up the chain of command. The instructors or senior individuals are telling you to do something unsafe, that puts lives in jepordy and is also in violation of regulations. Those that are asking you to do this need to be reprimanded and if need be, be relived from their training duties.

[Hacker15e]

Inspector General's complaint.

[lintt]

hey thanks for the advice guys, i kinda figured id have to go through my chain of command but i was hopeing for another option. but good advice is good advice no matter how hard it is. i started talking to my chain of command today and got through all the NCO's at the facility. i havent made it to the 1SGT yet.

so now they are putting me on remedial training because i wont conform to their airfeild specific procedures (which arent in accordence with the the .65) and want me to give them a comprehensive list of all the deficiencies ive seen. so in my opinion they are repremanding me for speaking up but want me to watch their backs by providing them with the info. that could damage them. i told them ive already given them all the info. prior to this but they didnt listen to me.

so anyways thank you for your responses and ill be talking to my 1SGT tomorrow and possibly IG after that. god i cant wait to get out and get a job with the FAA.

[Ian J]

H46 & Hacker are right. Make a very concerted attempt to work this through the CoC. Use the open door policy to see the 1SG and CO is your NCOs are giving you the run around. If you have tried everything to resolve the problem via the COC and they can't/won't help, contact the IG.

On another note - I'm a former Army Officer and Aviator... I'd be very interested to know what some of these policies are that are being violated. If you don''t want to make it public, PM if you like.

[lintt]

Originally Posted by Ian J

H46 & Hacker are right. Make a very concerted attempt to work this through the CoC. Use the open door policy to see the 1SG and CO is your NCOs are giving you the run around. If you have tried everything to resolve the problem via the COC and they can't/won't help, contact the IG.

On another note - I'm a former Army Officer and Aviator... I'd be very interested to know what some of these policies are that are being violated. If you don''t want to make it public, PM if you like.

ok, so i went to my 1SGT and got the answer i knew id get. to summerize the conversation, pretty much hes going to back up his NCO's. so the remedial training stands. since he is not an ATC guy (to his credit) he took the time out to understand what exactly i was saying, and agreed with most of what i said.

which doesnt really matter because once the NCO's relized i was going to him, they said they would fix the problems. so to summerize the whole sequence of events, they are going to fix the problems with my guidence, but i still get burnt.

id take this to the commander, but i expect the same answer from him.

but here is the violations that ive seen so far. all of these examples/violations can be confermed in the FAAO 7110.65

1) simultaneous opposite direction runways operations with (way!!!) less than prescribed separation minima.

2) issuing clearences to aircraft to land and depart areas not visible from the tower. which are also unlight.

3) issueing clearences to departing/arriving aircraft to a non-movement area. even though standerd procedures are prescribed in the FLIPS.

4) not adhering to wake turbulence separation.

5) not using "not in sight" procedures.

6) not using "position determination" before issueing taxi instructions.

7) not adhering to "taxi into position and hold" phraseology.

8) not adhering to published procedures for departing aircraft from 1 of the runways....the thing with this is if they depart from the one runway and dont turn a certain direction due to the proximity of the city they could get shot at.

9) not visually scanning the runway before issuing takeoff clearences.

10) im not exactly sure how to define this one, but here is the example. i had a heavy fixed wing short final to land the active, he called for a clearence to land because he didnt call 3 mile final (pilots jeesh lol), MEDEVAC helo called for departure at the same time (and took forever with the transmission) i started to give the fixed wing a clearence to land because if i didnt he would have to execute a missed approach which would take him in the path of the MEDEVAC's. then i was going to issue a clearence to the MEDEVAC, my trainer stepped on me and issued the helo's a departure clearence first. well the fixed wing executed a missed approach because they didnt get a clearence to land in time and busted separation minima with the helo's. then my trainer turned to me and said that the MEDEVAC birds get priority. while what he said is true, and yes the fixed wing should have called when i told him to. the situation at hand (in my opinion) would have resulted in overall better handling if we got the fixed wing on the ground and out of the MEDEVAC's way...honestly the MEDEVACS would have been delayed 3-4 secs, just the time it takes to spit out a landing clearence.


i think that about covers it, if i did leave anything off its minor and ive forgotten about it. but honestly since your a former pilot and officer id really appriciate your input/feedback on this. at this point i feel if i push this any further im going to lose rank. and the NCO's have already covered their butts by agreeing to correct the problems. but time will tell because as of today the problems still arent fixed.

[Ian J]

First off, as long as you are respectful and follow lawful orders, you cannot lose rank. If you utilize the open door policy, you cannot lose rank. If you seek help from the IG, you cannot lose rank.

And sure, your commander might give you the same answers your 1SG did, but at least you tried to utilize the chain before going to the IG. Your commander is probably an aviator, and may understand your concerns better than your 1SG. You don't know till you try.

Sometimes it is easy to fool a commander. A commander relies on his NCOs since he can't be everywhere at once. If all my NCOs told me one of my controllers was substandard and needed extra training, I'd believe them. If they ALL said they were following procedures, I'd probably believe that too. I have to be able to trust them.

However, I might think about inviting the IG to do a courtesy inspection of my unit, just to make sure. The IG could solicit outside ATC personnel to do an external evaluation for me. As a commander these kinds of concerns would be very important to me.

No matter what, be professional and follow lawful orders. Utilize the CoC and get the IG involved if you have to.

Good luck.

EDIT: Okay, I just realized you said the NCOs were going to fix the problems. Great! You succeeded. Don't worry about getting "burned." Just do your job, be a good soldier, and you'll be fine. If you feel you are facing retributions for going to the 1SG, bring it up to the 1SG/CO. A rehabilitative transfer is a possibility.

[lintt]

well i appriciate all the advice, i quess i just needed confirmation on what my course of action should be on this. and no im not a good soldier/controller..im a hellava outstanding one!!!

and your spot on about me not worrying about some heat for the time being, at the end of the day these pilots lives are a little (read: much) safer because of these events...now if i could only get them to report 3 mile final my life would be perfect.