So what exactly does an Air Force navigator do?

[scramjet]

They obviously navigate, but they also go through some type of flight training, correct? Do they ever manipulate the controls? I'm talking about transport navigators not WSOs. Just curious, because with my eyesight, it might be an interesting AF career option.

[Mike Lewis]

My dad was a navigator on the B-52 and F-111. They do the targeting for offensive weapons and electronic warfare for defensive systems. Dad didn't get to "manipulate the controls" on the B-52, but he was basically a co-pilot on the F-111.

On the transports (such as the KC-135) they do a lot of the functions of the flight engineer. However, I thought that a lot of the navigators on the transports were going away (the C-17 doesn't have navs, and I thought that maybe as part of the C-5 avionics upgrade, those might be going away also).

I read somewhere that they were considering replacing the term "navigator" with "combat systems operator".

[scramjet]

Thanks!

Yeah I've been seeing a lot of C-130 navigator openings on the Air National Guard site.

[Herkyload1]

Originally Posted by scramjet

Thanks!

Yeah I've been seeing a lot of C-130 navigator openings on the Air National Guard site.

The Nav on a herk....that's easy!
They only serve a couple of purposes.

1. Wake up the load for his checklist call....IE: pilot calls for "Before Landing Checlist" everyone does their thing, then Co-Pilot calls for "Before landing checks" Engineer calls "complete", then Nav calls "complete", that's the cue for the Load to wake up, hit the mike button and call "complete load"

2. If the need ever arose to bail out the crew entrance door, the nav is thrown out first to knock all those sharp pointy antenna's off the bottom of the plane, so the rest of the crew doesn't hurt themselves.

They may do other things, but I don't think it's ever been proven.

J/K Had many a Nav stand at the bottom of the stairs to watch my back on ERO's.

[Kato]

That is some funny %@#! right there - I don't care who you are...

[Herkyload1]

Originally Posted by Kato

That is some funny %@#! right there - I don't care who you are...

Praise the Load!!

Kato,

You know a load named McCurdy that was in the Channel Island unit back around 98/99, he went Active Duty?

[falconvalley]

I don't think the C-5 has had a navigator in years. There are a few planes left in the AF that still use one. They still have the Nav school going but not as big as years ago.

[frog_flyer]

12B1 - B-52 Navigator

Day to DayOperations- After the initial training time which ranges from 18 - 24+ months, broken down as follows: 10 months of UNT (Undergraduate Navigator Training) (aka CSO, SUNT), 1.5 Months of SERE (Survival Evasion Resistance Escape) Land and Water, and 8 Months B-52 FTU (Formal Training Unit), and 4 Months or so of spin up time at your Op Sq (the infamous FNG time), plus any time spent as a casual, your life is pretty busy. Once you are CMR (Combat Mission Ready) you are required to fly at least 4 times a month or 12 times a quarter. Flights are typically 6 - 9 hours in length with 2 - 5 hours of pre and post flight grd ops. Your only job for the first 6 months is to fly and then after that you get a desk job in the sq along with your flying requirements.


Best/Worst Assignments - Unfortunately in the Air Force there are a lot of B-52 navs so the majority of them get the chance to go play Army for 2 years or so. Another bad gig is ending up in the 11th Bomb Sq (B-52 FTU) as an instructor and finding out what 60% manning feels like. Good gigs include deployments to Guam, white jet (T-43) back to Randolph, and some choice staff tours.

Career Advancement - Pretty decent right now. Career progression for nav's is to upgrade to Radar Nav and then to Instructor. There's a critical shortage of Radars right now so that's a plus. Staff jobs aren't terribly difficult to come across and of course you can always reapply for UPT.

Employment outside of the Air Force - Slim for a Nav. We do have a pretty high security clearance so that can help to find employment in some cases.

Education Requirements - Obvisouly a 4 year and a Master's is pretty much the standard today. So be prepared to go and get it. This goes for everybody in the B-52 field, all crew positions. Unfortunately you don't necessarily get time to do it, so it's on your own which means night or weekend classes for the most part. PME is a must, with SOS needing to be done in correspondence first and then you can apply to go in residence. If you don't have it done in correspondence, don't expect to go in residence and don't expect to pin on Major either.

Pro / Con - You're a bomber and you get to drop some bombs every once in a while. You get to fly and be in an op squadron. As of right now it's still a protected AFSC, so force shaping doesn't concern you. Deployments are to a remote tropical island for 4 months at a time. Congress likes us, and the Senators from ND and LA are good to us. Now for the cons. You're a bomber and the oldest one. We don't get the funding we need in a lot of cases. The current number of B-52's isn't the final number of B-52's. ALO tours are almost a sure thing whether you volunteer or not. Neither location is all that nice. No TDY time.

That's about it. Hope this info helps. –Lt xxxxx (xxxxxxxxx)

[Kato]

Originally Posted by Herkyload1

Kato,

You know a load named McCurdy that was in the Channel Island unit back around 98/99, he went Active Duty?

I may have heard the name thrown around once or twice, but never met him. I didn't join until '03

[Fly4Pay]

Man.... the punchlines are so EASY!!!! Must.... control....

You can see above what B-52 navs do. I flew one of the few aircraft that still have navs, the E-8C JointSTARS. The nav there is selects the best orbit to get the radar antenna on the plane to view the desired observation area. They are also the "defensive systems officer", meaning they WOULD operate the defensive suite (flares, etc) IF they were actually connected (the wiring is there, but no equipment!) They also manage timing for air refueling as well as set us up for rendezvous.

For the pilots, the E-8 (a 707 airframe) has the finest equipment the 1960s had to offer. The nav at least has a graphical display giving a top-down view. Unfortunately, he ALSO sits 30 feet aft of the flight deck, back with the mission crew--so all communication is via interphone.

Oh... and he doesn't get a window.

So there's one more aircraft to add to your "list o' knowledge!"

[fish314]

In the KC-135, I'm pretty sure the Nav was responsible for bringing the porn.... No wait, my bad, that's the boom operator.

Watching the porn, eating the first meal, and sleeping after the gear is retracted... I'm pretty sure those are his duties.

Oh, and he turns on the INS..... sometimes. And he almost always occasionally turns it OFF, too!

[Fly4Pay]

Originally Posted by fish314

In the KC-135, I'm pretty sure the Nav was responsible for bringing the porn.... No wait, my bad, that's the boom operator.

Watching the porn, eating the first meal, and sleeping after the gear is retracted... I'm pretty sure those are his duties.

Oh, and he turns on the INS..... sometimes. And he almost always occasionally turns it OFF, too!

My nav in the -135 was a card. When we were flying across the ocean, he'd wait till a passenger came up into the cockpit, then he'd look at his chart, pull out a pair of dice, toss 'em, then say "Pilot, come left five" (or whatever the dice read).

OR, when they would ask, "Where are we?", he'd hold his finger over the chart and say, "we're riiiiiight abouuuuuuuuuuut... HERE"--and point to his desk somewhere off the edge of his chart.

[scramjet]

Haha! Sounds like those navigators have fun!

[ThatGuy]

I graduate UNT @ Randolph next Friday so I will pass on what I know.

First the AF we are no longer Nav.'s, we are now CSO's (Combat Systems Officers). We navigate and protect the aircraft from threats. The program is getting ready to move back to PNS and when it does there will be no more Navigator or EWO track. The first five months will be spent learning Navigation skills then the last 5 months everyone will go through the EWO program. The reason is the AF wants to be able to interchange Nav's and EWO's on the aircraft, mainly because technology is taking over the navigator role. They are also saying that down the road the CSO's who have not been through the EWO program will go to PNS and get the training.

I don't think it is a bad thing because you will be more marketable in the civilian world with that training and the security clearance, and it is cool stuff that they learn. Navigators really don't have any civilian marketable skills unless you have your ratings and you build your time at the aero clubs. However, you can always enter the corporate world and fall back on being an officer in the AF. A lot of dudes are getting good jobs in a variety of career fields just from their comission.

Finally to briefly break the role down by aircraft.

C-130 Nav's come run the low level mission. Planning the route, course control, time control, and getting over top of the target. The Nav is also responisble for protecting the airplane from threats.

AC/MC's have to Nav's The MC's Nav's back each other up and the lead Nav has one other responsibility, but I can't remember what it is. The AC has a Nav and a Fire Officer (also a Nav). The FCO aims and fires the weapons.

EC/RC/KC/E-3 Nav's basically just get the aircraft to a safe orbit for their mission. They have a few other responsibilities depending on the aircraft. KC Nav's are going away. I have only seen two people drop a KC in the last several classes, because they are getting glassed out.

B-52's also have two Nav's. One is the primary navigator to get to and from a target, and the other is a Radar Nav. He is backing up the primary Nav but the Radar Nav drops the payload.

The B-1 does not have a CSO, they have two EWO's

I am a Guard dude and going to the Herc. and low level will be my life. If you are going active I would recomend the AC, MC, B-52, C-130, then what ever is left. That would have been the order of my choices.

I had a vague understanding of the job when I started training so I want to share the knowledge.

[mhcasey]

Hey that guy, you're not heading to the 136th are you?

Also, no navs on the 130J, right? Why the heck not?

[ThatGuy]

No, I am not heading to the 136th. Correct there are no Nav's on the "J" because it has a glass panel, with one exception. The Hurricane Hunters in the AF Reserve do us Nav's on the "J" because of the mission.

That would be a sweet mission if you are in to that sort of thing. From what I hear, the deployment destinations are awesome, Hawaii is one of them I believe.

[scramjet]

ANG C-130 Nav was what I was kicking around. Thanks for all the good info guys!