Navy Commander 'counseled' Pensacola Pilots for Non-Assigned Resc

[Doug Taylor]

Just in case MikeD needs impetus to throw someone else over the bar at the OC...



[ QUOTE ]
Navy Commander 'counseled' Pensacola Pilots for Non-Assigned Rescues

By Bill Kaczor
Associated Press Writer
Published: Sep 7, 2005
PENSACOLA, Fla. (AP) - Two Navy helicopter pilots were reminded of the
importance of supply missions after delivering their cargo and then
rescuing 110 hurricane victims in New Orleans instead of immediately
returning to base, the military said Wednesday.
One of the pilots was temporarily assigned to a kennel but that was not
punishment, said Patrick Nichols, a civilian public affairs officer at
Pensacola Naval Air Station.

"They were not reprimanded," Nichols said. "They were counseled."

Lt. Matt Udkow and Lt. David Shand returned to the base from their
mission on Aug. 30, a day after Hurricane Katrina made landfall, Nichols
said.

Udkow and Shand met the next morning with Cmdr. Michael Holdener, who
reminded them their orders were to fly water and other supplies to three
destinations in Mississippi - the Stennis Space Center, Pascagoula and
Gulfport - and then return to Pensacola, Nichols said.

"The Hollywood role of this thing is search and rescue," Nichols told
The Associated Press. "Logistics was just as important. They realize that."

According to an account in The New York Times, the two air crews picked
up a Coast Guard radio call that helicopters were needed for rescues in
New Orleans. They were out of radio range to Pensacola, so they decided
to fly their helicopters to New Orleans and join the rescue effort
without permission.

It took only minutes for the H-3 helicopters to fly to New Orleans,
where Udkow's crew plucked people off rooftops. Shand landed his
helicopter on the roof of an apartment building where more than a dozen
people had been stranded. When he returned to get more, two crew members
entered the building and found two blind residents and led them to the
helicopter.

Udkow later received permission to continue with the rescue missions
when he landed to refuel in New Orleans.

Both helicopters returned to Pensacola, about 200 miles east of New
Orleans, by dark, as required by flight rules. Nichols was unsure
whether any supplies went undelivered as a result of the rescues.

The pilots and Holdener weren't available for interviews Wednesday,
Nichols said. He said Udkow was flying and Shand was resting between
missions.

"We all want to be the guys who rescue people," Holdener told the Times.
"But they were told we have other missions we have to do night now and
that is not the priority."

The air over New Orleans was so thick with helicopters a few days later
that crews were having a hard time finding people who needed rescuing,
but that was not the case when Udkow and Shand flew their rescue missions.

"I would be looking at a family of two on one roof and maybe a family of
six on another roof, and I would have to make a decision who to rescue,"
Udkow told the Times. "It wasn't easy."

Nichols said Udkow was in no way being punished by being put in charge
of a temporary kennel in Pensacola for pets of military personnel who
had been evacuated from hurricane-stricken areas.

"It's a collateral duty," Nichols said. "These guys don't just fly. They
do other stuff."

[/ QUOTE ]

[Mike Lewis]

I've seen additional duties that must be done when not flying - scheduling, mission planning, evaluations, simulators - but I don't think I've ever seen a pilot pull kennel duty as a "routine additional duty."

What a crock...

[Doug Taylor]

Perhaps one of the people that was rescued said, "Nah, don't worry! Leave me here! You've got to go fill out those TPS reports!"

[JimmyK]

Ok, I dont know how other people feel about this but I figured I'd get my opinion in here. Im not really in the military yet, but I have learned alot about it in my few weeks in the DEP. One of the first things you learn, and you learn it pretty fast is that when given an order you complete that order no more, no less. While they did do a good deed and saved a lot of lives there orders were to deliver the supplies and go back to P-Cola, not to deliver the supplies and help with the rescue efforts. Now, dont get me wrong, Im happy that those 100-some people got out of there safely, thats a hunderd more people they wont be carried out in bady bags, but these men are in the military and when your in the military there is always someone else calling the shots.

[aloft]

[ QUOTE ]
Im not really in the military yet, but I have learned alot about it in my few weeks in the DEP. One of the first things you learn, and you learn it pretty fast is that when given an order you complete that order no more, no less.

[/ QUOTE ]

Emphasis mine.

For a first-term enlistee, yeah; do what you're told, when you're told, don't color outside the lines. Commissioned officers, however, are expected to use their noggins more than that, and adapt to changing situations intelligently.

Going above and beyond the call of duty is not a UCMJ-punishable offense, nor should it be. That commander needs to reexamine his priorities, IMHO; no resupply mission is more important than saving even a single human life, if the opportunity to do so presents itself. Kudos to those two helo pilots for seeing the bigger picture.

[Mike Lewis]

Also, don't forget that you only follow lawful orders. Not saying that the orders to return to base were unlawful, but I am saying that you will learn very quickly in the military that it is unacceptable to blindly follow every order you are given; you must understand what an order is saying and then decide for yourself whether or not to accept it.

As is evidenced both here and in the Abu Graihb trials, the ultimate responsibility for what happens belongs to you; you can't say "I was following orders" and expect that defense to keep you from getting in deep crap.

That said, I agree with aloft. These guys saw an opportunity and took it, and saved several people's lives. I don't think it is right that they are punished for it. Granted, we don't see the entire picture (and believe me, I know about long logistics chains and how easy it is for one missed helicopter shipment to balloon into a lost capability for an entire unit), but based on what I have seen, I think these guys are getting screwed.

But, as I said before, in the end, you have to live with your consequences. Would it be easier to know you did a good job and followed orders but allowed people to die that you could have saved? Those are the things that went through this crew's heads, and I am glad I didn't have to make that decision; it's a no-win situation. I just hope their careers don't suffer as a result of it.

[Doug Taylor]

[ QUOTE ]
you can't say "I was following orders"

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahem... It is "I vus followink orders"

Carry on soldier!

[jbp1]

The Helo squadrons in NPA (Navy Pensacola) have a primary mission of SAR/CSAR. I was helo aircrew in the Navy and I am pretty damn sure that the "creed" for SAR/CSAR squadrons is to rescue those in need. At least that what we were told when I was there. Those pilots were doing what they are trained to do and should not be "counseled" for it. The "counseling" letters stay in your Military file throughout your career and do not stay with your respective squadron. The CDR that "counseled" the crew is probably a new CO with something to prove. That's my 2 cents.

[flightmedic]

Yes, you do have to follow orders. But being a highly trained officer as those two pilots are you are also supposed to be able to make solid concise judgment calls.......you can't tell me that every pilot in has ever followed the "book" to the T regardless of the saftey of others.. ANY member of the military can, if the situation presents itself, can refuse an order. You better be ABSOLUTLEY sure that the actions you would have taken had you followed a direct order would have drastic effects on others personell or civilians. If that was me, I would have done the same thing those guys did. Suggesting that it is along the "holywood" side of things just shows that this commander couldn't find his own @ss with 2 hands and a flashlight. Some big brassers need to pull thier head out of each others @ss as well as thier supperior officers @sses.

In my opinion the only one here who should be shoveling dog she-at is the comander who obviously has to be issued knee pads because keeping his superiors happy and covering his own @ss comes before the human, and hounorism that those pilots showed by using sound judgment.

Beautiful example of why I got out.

Brent

[FlyChicaga]

One of those two guys is a frequent poster on Flightinfo.com. He actually came on those boards the night that this happened, and said that he almost lost his command status because of this. Let me see if I can dig up the post.

[FlyChicaga]

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=61067

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=61658

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=61197

Here you go

[H46Bubba]

Man "F" the rules! That's the whole purpose of SAR. The rescue swimmer creed is "So others may live" What a pompos jack ass that commander is, escpecially after the mass resentment of the governments response. They saw people in dire need and did their jobs. God I hate those burecratic career brown noser O's. I give those guys a big BZ. My friend is a crewman with P'cola SAR. I'll call him and get the skinny, hell he may have been one of the crewman on that flight.

[bullmastiff]

Via someone I know in that command, I can assure you there are other circumstances surrounding this. Take a look at the big picture. These guys were flying resupply, so look at some of the possible problems that could have arose. medical supplies, water, food, and other essential items to treat the ill may not have made it through to the people waiting for them..... Im drunk as a skunk, hope it all makes sens

[flightmedic]

[ QUOTE ]
Via someone I know in that command, I can assure you there are other circumstances surrounding this. Take a look at the big picture. These guys were flying resupply, so look at some of the possible problems that could have arose. medical supplies, water, food, and other essential items to treat the ill may not have made it through to the people waiting for them..... Im drunk as a skunk, hope it all makes sens

[/ QUOTE ]


IMHO....and military experience ...that's what support company is for.......not search and rescue. Doesn't matter what the issue is with the military. You could fart while on parade and there would be some sort of issue with it.....

Brent