Couple of questions for the military pilots

[GirlInTraining]

Ok, I'm down to my last few flights (hooray!) at UPT Phase III, and I just had a couple questions that I can't seem to get an answer from the all-knowing IPs.

1 - In the ICAO procedures for filling out a DD-1801, there's a note about "Non-FM Immune" aircraft. Could you explain what Non-FM immune is?

2 - In section 5-29 of GP, there's a blurb in there about after receiving a revised clearance or approach clearance, all military pilots will report leaving altitude for a lower altitude. I.e., you're at 4000', the PT/initial altitude for the approach is 1900, and you were cleared the approach. I've always come back with "Commencing approach" or "[CALLSIGN] 4000 descending 1900 [APPROACH NAME]". I've been told this is not a mandatory report, as per FIH, but about half the IPs say it is, half say it is only more radio traffic and not necessary. Per 5-29, I read it as a mandatory report. Any thoughts?

[woodreau]

non-FM immune - in order to fly in Europe (i don't know if you need to have this capability anywhere else.) you need to have an aircraft radio which can tune 8.33kHz frequencies and not "bleedover" and jam other aircraft using the next adjacent frequency.

I think US military aircraft (a state aircraft) are exempt from this requirement so you have to annotate it in the remarks of the flight plan form so that the ATC folks won't assign you to a frequency that you can't tune.

The US hasn't implemented the closer 8.33kHz frequency spacing. We're still using 25kHz frequency spacing - which means there's only 5 frequencies between xxx.000 and xxx.100 (.000 / .025 / .050 / .075 / .100). Over in Europe there are 17 frequencies between xxx.000 and xxx.100 (.000/.005/.010/.015/.025/.030/.035/.040/.050, etc you get the idea)

I can't answer your second question as I'm not a military pilot.

[MikeD]

FM section that Woodreau described is correct....even though he answered a question directed to military pilots.....this is your last warning

[ QUOTE ]

2 - In section 5-29 of GP, there's a blurb in there about after receiving a revised clearance or approach clearance, all military pilots will report leaving altitude for a lower altitude. I.e., you're at 4000', the PT/initial altitude for the approach is 1900, and you were cleared the approach. I've always come back with "Commencing approach" or "[CALLSIGN] 4000 descending 1900 [APPROACH NAME]". I've been told this is not a mandatory report, as per FIH, but about half the IPs say it is, half say it is only more radio traffic and not necessary. Per 5-29, I read it as a mandatory report. Any thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Per 5-29(c) FLIP, we get into what's required versus what's done real world. The spirit of 5-29(c) is altitude verification. So by reg, when receiving an approach clearance, for example, you're supposed to acknowlege the receipt of the clearance as well as the altitude you're leaving and the altitude you're going down to.

This is all well and good if you're going to commence your descent at the time the approach clearance is given. IE- you're 1 mile from the IAF at FL220 for the HI-TACAN, and post IAF, you've got the jet penetration to 12,000. At that 1 mile from the IAF, approach issues you your clearance. So it's convenient to acknowlege the "cleared the HI-TACAN, leaving Flight Level 240 for one-two thousand."

But reality isn't always that way. Realistially, you'll likely receive your approach clearance well in advance...say 10 or more miles from the IAF. What are you going to do now? Not acknowlege the clearance because you can't acknowlege the altitude vacating part? Of course not. You'll acknowlege the approach clearance, and when at the IAF, announce "Gunhog 11, (IAF name), commencing the approach", or you can say the same thing as above and add ".....leaving FL 240 for one-two thousand"; but IMO, that's somewhat wordy and an announcement of the obvious..since ATC knows what approach you're flying, they know what altitude you're at (since they verified it at check in with them), and they know what altitude you're supposed to be going down to. Everyone here knows I'm all about comm brevity, and to me 5-29 is a poorly worded reg in the spirit of comm brevity. I personally acknowlege the approach clearance, and when I'm commencing, announce "(callsign), (IAF name), commencing, leaving XX thousand/Flight Level XX". That's me.

Hope this helps. Any other questions for mil training, Diane, let me know.

BTW, tell whichever dumbass FAIP(s) that have you wondering about this question, to call me if they disagree, so I can give them some instruction on how the real world operates.

MD

[GirlInTraining]

Thanks guys!

Mike - Yes, the whole comm brevity vs. required reports thing is a point of contention here. The AF instructors typically will call re: 5-29(c), the Navy dudes usually don't. At least my excuse is "Well, as MY technique, being Air Force...."

They love that line.

[woodreau]

[ QUOTE ]
FM section that Woodreau described is correct....even though he answered a question directed to military pilots.....this is your last warning

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey I just launched them off my flight deck...
Of course if any pilot ever gave me a hard time, I just waited until they were just over the rounddown, then I'd just issue the "Right full rudder" order and have the flight deck move on them - just kidding...

On to the nine-line question.
I have worked with Marine Cobras and Harriers for close air support, but have never worked with the Air Force. I did some fire support work for a year, but I never asked pilots what they did after I read the nine-line. As long as my target got destroyed, I was happy. The Marine pilots seemed to be able to convert the target grid to something useable for them, I assume they had combat charts just like the ground guys do. They plugged the numbers in to make it work for them - I got my target destroyed.

So when I called a nine-line: "IP Budweiser, 325 magnetic, offset left, 9nm, altitude 600ft, tank platoon in the open, grid 123456, mark white phosphorus, friendlies south 1500, egress west." the pilot acknowledged, I went about doing a call for fire to the mortar platoon to get the WP mark out there, made sure we didn't have any other fire support shooting across the aircraft flight path. Once the pilot got a tally on the mark, I'd adjust from the mark, cleared the flight hot. Death and destruction got issued...

What did you do in the A-10? Did you want your target location in lat/long or grid or didn't care? Or do you guys operate beyond the FSCL and pretty much operate independently within a killbox and engage whatever you see... and don't worry about talking to the ground guys?

This wierd topic just popped into my head... I have no idea why my curiosity got peaked now now that I'm no longer in the business.

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]
So when I called a nine-line: "IP Budweiser, 325 magnetic, offset left, 9nm, altitude 600ft, tank platoon in the open, grid 123456, mark white phosphorus, friendlies south 1500, egress west." the pilot acknowledged, I went about doing a call for fire to the mortar platoon to get the WP mark out there, made sure we didn't have any other fire support shooting across the aircraft flight path. Once the pilot got a tally on the mark, I'd adjust from the mark, cleared the flight hot. Death and destruction got issued...

What did you do in the A-10? Did you want your target location in lat/long or grid or didn't care? Or do you guys operate beyond the FSCL and pretty much operate independently within a killbox and engage whatever you see... and don't worry about talking to the ground guys?

This wierd topic just popped into my head... I have no idea why my curiosity got peaked now now that I'm no longer in the business.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did the same thing, both in air and on the ground. On my end in the air, we prefer the MRGS grids, and we operate kill box or beyond the FSCL, whereever we're needed. Only difference between the two for us is who the fires authority is.

In the air, once the 9 line is received, I confirm that the wingman got the info, and acknowlege lines 1,4,6, and 8 and any restrictions to the GFAC or ANGLICO. From there it's a quick target plot on the 1:50,000 and a confirm with the wingman. Once we have that, I pass the fighter to fighter to the wingman which is a short comm on what pre-briefed tactics we're going to run to prosecute the target (shooters, shooter-cover, suppressor-shooter, etc). I then radio the FAC that we're inbound with how long until roll-in and situate my formation as we ingress. I'll normally give a 30 seconds out call in order to give time for the FAC to get the mark out (if there's going to be one), and watch the target area for that. Once the mark is down or I see the target, I'll give a 10 second call in order to give the FAC time to get eyes-on me, then call "in" with direction, awaiting the cleared hot from the FAC (depending if it's direct control or not). Everything else happensas you know it.

[aloft]

Hey Diane, are you at Corpus?

[woodreau]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So when I called a nine-line: "IP Budweiser, 325 magnetic, offset left, 9nm, altitude 600ft, tank platoon in the open, grid 123456, mark white phosphorus, friendlies south 1500, egress west." the pilot acknowledged, I went about doing a call for fire to the mortar platoon to get the WP mark out there, made sure we didn't have any other fire support shooting across the aircraft flight path. Once the pilot got a tally on the mark, I'd adjust from the mark, cleared the flight hot. Death and destruction got issued...

What did you do in the A-10? Did you want your target location in lat/long or grid or didn't care? Or do you guys operate beyond the FSCL and pretty much operate independently within a killbox and engage whatever you see... and don't worry about talking to the ground guys?

This wierd topic just popped into my head... I have no idea why my curiosity got peaked now now that I'm no longer in the business.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did the same thing, both in air and on the ground. On my end in the air, we prefer the MRGS grids, and we operate kill box or beyond the FSCL, whereever we're needed. Only difference between the two for us is who the fires authority is.

In the air, once the 9 line is received, I confirm that the wingman got the info, and acknowlege lines 1,4,6, and 8 and any restrictions to the GFAC or ANGLICO. From there it's a quick target plot on the 1:50,000 and a confirm with the wingman. Once we have that, I pass the fighter to fighter to the wingman which is a short comm on what pre-briefed tactics we're going to run to prosecute the target (shooters, shooter-cover, suppressor-shooter, etc). I then radio the FAC that we're inbound with how long until roll-in and situate my formation as we ingress. I'll normally give a 30 seconds out call in order to give time for the FAC to get the mark out (if there's going to be one), and watch the target area for that. Once the mark is down or I see the target, I'll give a 10 second call in order to give the FAC time to get eyes-on me, then call "in" with direction, awaiting the cleared hot from the FAC (depending if it's direct control or not). Everything else happensas you know it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanx