Two In A Row!!!!

mtsu_av8er · October 22nd, 2003, 14:01

I'm not sure what in the world is going on around here, but my school....the almighty MTSU Blue Raiders.....have managed to have Two - count them - TWO mishaps in the last 3 days!! Now, luckily, nobody was injured in either of the two, but they're still a reason to pay more attention to what's going on.

Now, I will say that I'm kinda sketchy on some of the details, so I'll only post what I know, and I'll make sure it's clear if I'm speculating....

In the first mishap, Sunday, a student and his CFI were landing at KCHA, and were lucky enough to strike the approach lights with the prop. They were in a DA-20. I'm not sure how....I'm not sure why....but they did. Now, I'm speculating at this point....how low do you have to be to strike the approach lights? They didn't just strike it...they tore a piece of it off!! 3 Degree glide path?? Hmmm....

So, last yesterday at some point in time, the FAA inspectors are at the MTSU flight school in Murfreesboro (KMBT), and discussing the events of Sunday with the department chair and chief pilot. While they were talking, deciding what to do about the mishap, another occured. A private pilot (I've heard...), on a solo cross-country lab, made his approach just a little bit too hot, and too fast. Off of the runway he went, damaging the maingear and taking a taxiway sign with him. He wasn't hurt....walked away with a little bit less pride, I'm sure.

Can you imagine....

"Mr. Inspector, I assure you that we have a perfectly safe operation going on......what the &%#& was that??"

Lot's of crap going on at University's flight school.....anybody wanna know why I've done no flight training there? It's a wake-up call, nonetheless. It can happen to anyone....

nightmaker · November 5th, 2003, 10:50

First of all, i'm not sure why nobody has posted a response to you but i'll do it.

Second, i go to mtsu and when i was in the flight program i had some fantastic training, most of the instructors out there really know what they are doing. .

Third, i know the cfi who had the mishap in CHA -- he is a great pilot--and these kind of things happen. i don't think it's necessarily his fault but maybe the DA-20's weren't such a good choice or planes.

i mean how many problems have those planes had? the landing gear, the elt's, and so on.

Even out at Wings in smyrna they have had a few mishaps with that plane. there was a guy who stalled on his first solo and tore up the plane, another pilot had a "hard landing" at the end of his flight, nobody even realized there was two inches gone from the prop until a pilot was doing the preflight the next day.

So in my own opinion i think that we have some great pilots out of mtsu and wings. i don't think it's fair to say that it's the universitys fault or that they don't have a good program.

mtsu_av8er · November 5th, 2003, 11:02

Hey, man!!! Welcome to MTSU (I noticed it's your first post...)!!!

I never said that there was anything wrong with their flight school....just that there are some issues! They must be halfway decent - they suckered me into the school!! But they really have some things to work out.

They have a horrible attrition rate! Soooo many people drop out of the pro-pilot program! I'm a dispatch major, and the guy that's teaching the dispatcher course - a former airline pilot and great guy - isn't a dispatcher!! The department head of the program - he's never flown for a carrier/airline (this doesn't mean he's not qualified....just makes me raise an eyebrow).

The instructors? I have no problem with them. I don't think that MTSU has a bad program - in fact, I think they do have a pretty good one. Would I have gone here if I could do it all over again? No, definately not. I'd have gone to the cheapest, smallest university with a flight program - Northwestern State University, in Louisiana (www.nsula.edu).

MTSU is cool, and the aero department is cool....I was just making an observation of the accidents. Don't get so defensive, Blue Raider!!!

nightmaker · November 5th, 2003, 17:48

hey there!
and i'm a woman!

but that's ok...now you know.
liked your reply to me. it's good to know that you are a raiders fan too--i was starting to wonder. i do agree with you about the teachers and stuff that makes me raise and eyebrow as well! and as far as the pro pilot program i dropped out of it too. i couldn't put 3,000 in an account. who do they think we are? some of us are trying to put ourselves through school!
yeah i'm all about cheap!

mtsu_av8er · November 6th, 2003, 09:06

My bad, woman (

)
No offense intended....I give everybody equal crap...lol. And I do have my Rader loyalty. I wasn't sure that they required students to put $3000 in a flight account....that's just not possible for many people, and that alienates a whole lot of people. I know that the most money I ever had to work with during my whole flight training at a given time was maybe $1,800.

Now, I understand that want students to maintain that positive balance on their account because students that can't keep the money in there most likely won't...yadayada yada.....

If that were there case, I'd have never gotten my training done!!!! Oh, well, I guess Uncle Jerry and Paul the Apostle have it all figured out! I won't make them too angry...I want a job in the flight school so I can make a little bit of difference!

Heath · November 6th, 2003, 15:43

Hey Av8tor,

Just noticed you were in Murfreesboro, I've seen you post elsewhere. I train at Russelville, KY and here you guys on the same frequency all the time. Now I'll wonder if it's you.

So do you teach there or are you trying to teach there?

Heath

mtsu_av8er · November 8th, 2003, 18:58

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Av8tor,

Just noticed you were in Murfreesboro, I've seen you post elsewhere. I train at Russelville, KY and here you guys on the same frequency all the time. Now I'll wonder if it's you.

So do you teach there or are you trying to teach there?

Heath

[/ QUOTE ]

What's going on up there in Russelville? We hear you guys alot on the unicom down here at Murfreesboro, and at John Tune!!!

I don't work there at Murfreesboro, yet, but I hope to. I'm just another wandering aerospace student for now...wishing I'd majored in Finance!!!

Kingairer · November 8th, 2003, 21:58

What happened with these incidents? ANy new policies? Are the CFIs still employed?? Just Wondering.

mtsu_av8er · November 10th, 2003, 10:57

No word yet....it's been kinda hush-hush (you know how those things go....)

mtsu_av8er · November 11th, 2003, 11:47

Hey Kingairer...
Here's the link the the most recent event (now classified as an accident...).

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...1842&key=1

Apparently, things are getting even shi**ier. Let's just say that the feds are more than a little bit interested in what's going on around there at Murfreesboro Municiple. There's is just alot of bad crap (some of it unsafe...) going around up there, and it's coming to light....MTSU is going to be screwed.

However, some are still trying to make it look better than it is!!!

nightmaker · November 15th, 2003, 10:09

hey av8er
saw the website you posted--pretty interesting stuff.
i got a question for you and any other MTSU people out there
i heard today that Pro Pilot majors aren't allowed to fly the Katanas when it's raining?
the reasoning is because the prop is wooden?
? ? ?
any info would be great bc at the moment i am flabbergasted!!!

mtsu_av8er · November 17th, 2003, 10:17

Hey there, nightmaker!

The DA-20 is not certified for instrument flight...at all. So, it's probably so that students don't get closer to IMC than they belong (of course, we all maintain perfect CFR cloud clearance, right? All together.....RIGHT!).

Personally, I think that if we were going to go to an all-new fleet, it should have been Cessna or Piper....and probably Cessna. But, oh well....I'm not running thew show......yet.....

Kingairer · November 17th, 2003, 11:31

In heavy rain with a high rpm, the rain acts almost like a sandblaster on the prop and can start to damage it.

mtsu_av8er · November 17th, 2003, 13:34

There you go, nightflyer!!! I've known kingairer for a while, so I guess we can believe him....

nightmaker · November 17th, 2003, 15:18

Ok, i understand now----i still think it's weird. . . why would we buy all these planes and have them not IFR certified? Seems to me that the DA-20's should have been built with a better prop -- not one that's going to fall apart. I would much rather the school had bought Cessnas or Cherokees--these are sturdy and reliable- Let the many kinks be worked out of the new aircraft. I mean don't get me wrong, having this wonderful fleet is great--but the experience one gains when flying IFR is greater than 20 hours of practice. Wouldn't it be terrible if there were students who went through all of their MTSU training and never once flew IFR? I think it should be required. What is a Pro Pilot if he/she doesn't have such an experience?

mtsu_av8er · November 17th, 2003, 16:02

Nightmaker, I'm with you on that one....the funny thing is that there are pilots that go through MTSU's program, from zero time to commercial, and the busiest airport they've flown into is Smyrna!!! Call me crazy, but that just doesn't make sense to me.

As far as the Katana fleet (some people seem to swear by them...), I think it's all flash, flash, flash. The Apostle Paul wants to look good, and I'm sure it does to alot of people. If you remember a few months ago, when the school took delivery of the new fleet, president McPhee made a statement in the Sidelines :

"This acquisition allows us to not only maintain the status of the nationally ranked program but also to strengthen the academic quality of the flight instruction at MTSU". (Sidelines, 8/18/2003).

Status? Is this what it's all about? Status? We're keeping up with the Jones'!!! As far as academic quality of flight instructing, well, that's just Bull. The aircraft have nothing to do with the quality of flight instruction.

The price of a new DA-20 is in the range of $140,000. You can get an IFR-certified Skyhawk for not too much more (relatively speaking, of course). Granted, it won't be as flashy or unique as a DA20, but it would serve the purpose very well.

I think that MTSU is trying to make themselves sound better on paper than thy really are, and I can't blame them. If I had to live with the safety record they're building, I'd probably do the same thing.....

fly_by_night · November 17th, 2003, 16:16

[ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't it be terrible if there were students who went through all of their MTSU training and never once flew IFR? I think it should be required.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would have to agree with you on pro pilot students being required to fly on an IFR flight plan during instrument training. I instructed at MTSU for about 2 semesters and quickly found out that many flight instrctors who went through the program had not ever flown in IMC. Call me crazy, but I think that it is pretty difficult to teach someone how to fly in conditions that you've never been in yourself.

nightmaker · November 17th, 2003, 17:48

Keeping up with the Jones'---that's the truth!

Kingairer · November 18th, 2003, 01:00

Dont forget about the Pipers they have. Those things are brand new also, and thus far have had a horrible dispatch rate from what ive heard. The diamonds are very nice aircraft.

Remember guys that the DA20 is a VFR only aircraft(due the make of the airplane and stuff im to lazy to type) and thus its only used for PVt pilots and some commercial. the Da40 IS ifr certified and a very comfortable and reliable aircraft in the clouds. Most of the ones they have have Hartzel, "normal", Props. The diamonds have a new feel to them that a New cessna or Piper just doesnt have. In a new piper your flying 1960 technology with a nice avionics package.

What are you up to Mtsuer?

mtsu_av8er · November 20th, 2003, 22:36

kingairer...What's up, man? Not alot here, just doing the school thing. What have you been up to????

October 22nd, 2003, 14:01	#1
mtsu_av8er Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Bach's Arco Pitcairn Posts: 13,404	Two In A Row!!!! I'm not sure what in the world is going on around here, but my school....the almighty MTSU Blue Raiders.....have managed to have Two - count them - TWO mishaps in the last 3 days!! Now, luckily, nobody was injured in either of the two, but they're still a reason to pay more attention to what's going on. Now, I will say that I'm kinda sketchy on some of the details, so I'll only post what I know, and I'll make sure it's clear if I'm speculating.... In the first mishap, Sunday, a student and his CFI were landing at KCHA, and were lucky enough to strike the approach lights with the prop. They were in a DA-20. I'm not sure how....I'm not sure why....but they did. Now, I'm speculating at this point....how low do you have to be to strike the approach lights? They didn't just strike it...they tore a piece of it off!! 3 Degree glide path?? Hmmm.... So, last yesterday at some point in time, the FAA inspectors are at the MTSU flight school in Murfreesboro (KMBT), and discussing the events of Sunday with the department chair and chief pilot. While they were talking, deciding what to do about the mishap, another occured. A private pilot (I've heard...), on a solo cross-country lab, made his approach just a little bit too hot, and too fast. Off of the runway he went, damaging the maingear and taking a taxiway sign with him. He wasn't hurt....walked away with a little bit less pride, I'm sure. Can you imagine.... "Mr. Inspector, I assure you that we have a perfectly safe operation going on......what the &%#& was that??" Lot's of crap going on at University's flight school.....anybody wanna know why I've done no flight training there? It's a wake-up call, nonetheless. It can happen to anyone....

November 5th, 2003, 10:50	#2
nightmaker Newbie Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: TN Posts: 5	Re: Two In A Row!!!! First of all, i'm not sure why nobody has posted a response to you but i'll do it. Second, i go to mtsu and when i was in the flight program i had some fantastic training, most of the instructors out there really know what they are doing. . Third, i know the cfi who had the mishap in CHA -- he is a great pilot--and these kind of things happen. i don't think it's necessarily his fault but maybe the DA-20's weren't such a good choice or planes. i mean how many problems have those planes had? the landing gear, the elt's, and so on. Even out at Wings in smyrna they have had a few mishaps with that plane. there was a guy who stalled on his first solo and tore up the plane, another pilot had a "hard landing" at the end of his flight, nobody even realized there was two inches gone from the prop until a pilot was doing the preflight the next day. So in my own opinion i think that we have some great pilots out of mtsu and wings. i don't think it's fair to say that it's the universitys fault or that they don't have a good program.

November 5th, 2003, 11:02	#3
mtsu_av8er Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Bach's Arco Pitcairn Posts: 13,404	Re: Two In A Row!!!! Hey, man!!! Welcome to MTSU (I noticed it's your first post...)!!! I never said that there was anything wrong with their flight school....just that there are some issues! They must be halfway decent - they suckered me into the school!! But they really have some things to work out. They have a horrible attrition rate! Soooo many people drop out of the pro-pilot program! I'm a dispatch major, and the guy that's teaching the dispatcher course - a former airline pilot and great guy - isn't a dispatcher!! The department head of the program - he's never flown for a carrier/airline (this doesn't mean he's not qualified....just makes me raise an eyebrow). The instructors? I have no problem with them. I don't think that MTSU has a bad program - in fact, I think they do have a pretty good one. Would I have gone here if I could do it all over again? No, definately not. I'd have gone to the cheapest, smallest university with a flight program - Northwestern State University, in Louisiana (www.nsula.edu). MTSU is cool, and the aero department is cool....I was just making an observation of the accidents. Don't get so defensive, Blue Raider!!!

November 5th, 2003, 17:48	#4
nightmaker Newbie Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: TN Posts: 5	Re: Two In A Row!!!! hey there! and i'm a woman! but that's ok...now you know. liked your reply to me. it's good to know that you are a raiders fan too--i was starting to wonder. i do agree with you about the teachers and stuff that makes me raise and eyebrow as well! and as far as the pro pilot program i dropped out of it too. i couldn't put 3,000 in an account. who do they think we are? some of us are trying to put ourselves through school! yeah i'm all about cheap!

November 6th, 2003, 09:06	#5
mtsu_av8er Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Bach's Arco Pitcairn Posts: 13,404	Re: Two In A Row!!!! My bad, woman ( ) No offense intended....I give everybody equal crap...lol. And I do have my Rader loyalty. I wasn't sure that they required students to put $3000 in a flight account....that's just not possible for many people, and that alienates a whole lot of people. I know that the most money I ever had to work with during my whole flight training at a given time was maybe $1,800. Now, I understand that want students to maintain that positive balance on their account because students that can't keep the money in there most likely won't...yadayada yada..... If that were there case, I'd have never gotten my training done!!!! Oh, well, I guess Uncle Jerry and Paul the Apostle have it all figured out! I won't make them too angry...I want a job in the flight school so I can make a little bit of difference!

November 6th, 2003, 15:43	#6
Heath Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Bowling Green, KY Posts: 387	Re: Two In A Row!!!! Hey Av8tor, Just noticed you were in Murfreesboro, I've seen you post elsewhere. I train at Russelville, KY and here you guys on the same frequency all the time. Now I'll wonder if it's you. So do you teach there or are you trying to teach there? Heath

November 8th, 2003, 18:58	#7
mtsu_av8er Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Bach's Arco Pitcairn Posts: 13,404	Re: Two In A Row!!!! [ QUOTE ] Hey Av8tor, Just noticed you were in Murfreesboro, I've seen you post elsewhere. I train at Russelville, KY and here you guys on the same frequency all the time. Now I'll wonder if it's you. So do you teach there or are you trying to teach there? Heath [/ QUOTE ] What's going on up there in Russelville? We hear you guys alot on the unicom down here at Murfreesboro, and at John Tune!!! I don't work there at Murfreesboro, yet, but I hope to. I'm just another wandering aerospace student for now...wishing I'd majored in Finance!!!

November 8th, 2003, 21:58	#8
Kingairer Old Skool Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Nomadic...World Wide Boobie Bungalow Bouncer Posts: 3,421	Re: Two In A Row!!!! What happened with these incidents? ANy new policies? Are the CFIs still employed?? Just Wondering.

November 10th, 2003, 10:57	#9
mtsu_av8er Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Bach's Arco Pitcairn Posts: 13,404	Re: Two In A Row!!!! No word yet....it's been kinda hush-hush (you know how those things go....)

November 11th, 2003, 11:47	#10
mtsu_av8er Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Bach's Arco Pitcairn Posts: 13,404	Re: Two In A Row!!!! Hey Kingairer... Here's the link the the most recent event (now classified as an accident...). http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...1842&key=1 Apparently, things are getting even shi**ier. Let's just say that the feds are more than a little bit interested in what's going on around there at Murfreesboro Municiple. There's is just alot of bad crap (some of it unsafe...) going around up there, and it's coming to light....MTSU is going to be screwed. However, some are still trying to make it look better than it is!!!

November 15th, 2003, 10:09	#11
nightmaker Newbie Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: TN Posts: 5	Re: Two In A Row!!!! hey av8er saw the website you posted--pretty interesting stuff. i got a question for you and any other MTSU people out there i heard today that Pro Pilot majors aren't allowed to fly the Katanas when it's raining? the reasoning is because the prop is wooden? ? ? ? any info would be great bc at the moment i am flabbergasted!!!

November 17th, 2003, 10:17	#12
mtsu_av8er Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Bach's Arco Pitcairn Posts: 13,404	Re: Two In A Row!!!! Hey there, nightmaker! The DA-20 is not certified for instrument flight...at all. So, it's probably so that students don't get closer to IMC than they belong (of course, we all maintain perfect CFR cloud clearance, right? All together.....RIGHT!). Personally, I think that if we were going to go to an all-new fleet, it should have been Cessna or Piper....and probably Cessna. But, oh well....I'm not running thew show......yet.....

November 17th, 2003, 11:31	#13
Kingairer Old Skool Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Nomadic...World Wide Boobie Bungalow Bouncer Posts: 3,421	Re: Two In A Row!!!! In heavy rain with a high rpm, the rain acts almost like a sandblaster on the prop and can start to damage it.

November 17th, 2003, 13:34	#14
mtsu_av8er Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Bach's Arco Pitcairn Posts: 13,404	Re: Two In A Row!!!! There you go, nightflyer!!! I've known kingairer for a while, so I guess we can believe him....

November 17th, 2003, 15:18	#15
nightmaker Newbie Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: TN Posts: 5	Re: Two In A Row!!!! Ok, i understand now----i still think it's weird. . . why would we buy all these planes and have them not IFR certified? Seems to me that the DA-20's should have been built with a better prop -- not one that's going to fall apart. I would much rather the school had bought Cessnas or Cherokees--these are sturdy and reliable- Let the many kinks be worked out of the new aircraft. I mean don't get me wrong, having this wonderful fleet is great--but the experience one gains when flying IFR is greater than 20 hours of practice. Wouldn't it be terrible if there were students who went through all of their MTSU training and never once flew IFR? I think it should be required. What is a Pro Pilot if he/she doesn't have such an experience?

November 17th, 2003, 16:02	#16
mtsu_av8er Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Bach's Arco Pitcairn Posts: 13,404	Re: Two In A Row!!!! Nightmaker, I'm with you on that one....the funny thing is that there are pilots that go through MTSU's program, from zero time to commercial, and the busiest airport they've flown into is Smyrna!!! Call me crazy, but that just doesn't make sense to me. As far as the Katana fleet (some people seem to swear by them...), I think it's all flash, flash, flash. The Apostle Paul wants to look good, and I'm sure it does to alot of people. If you remember a few months ago, when the school took delivery of the new fleet, president McPhee made a statement in the Sidelines : "This acquisition allows us to not only maintain the status of the nationally ranked program but also to strengthen the academic quality of the flight instruction at MTSU". (Sidelines, 8/18/2003). Status? Is this what it's all about? Status? We're keeping up with the Jones'!!! As far as academic quality of flight instructing, well, that's just Bull. The aircraft have nothing to do with the quality of flight instruction. The price of a new DA-20 is in the range of $140,000. You can get an IFR-certified Skyhawk for not too much more (relatively speaking, of course). Granted, it won't be as flashy or unique as a DA20, but it would serve the purpose very well. I think that MTSU is trying to make themselves sound better on paper than thy really are, and I can't blame them. If I had to live with the safety record they're building, I'd probably do the same thing.....

November 17th, 2003, 16:16	#17
fly_by_night Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: NC, Go Heels!!! Posts: 42	Re: Two In A Row!!!! [ QUOTE ] Wouldn't it be terrible if there were students who went through all of their MTSU training and never once flew IFR? I think it should be required. [/ QUOTE ] I would have to agree with you on pro pilot students being required to fly on an IFR flight plan during instrument training. I instructed at MTSU for about 2 semesters and quickly found out that many flight instrctors who went through the program had not ever flown in IMC. Call me crazy, but I think that it is pretty difficult to teach someone how to fly in conditions that you've never been in yourself.

November 17th, 2003, 17:48	#18
nightmaker Newbie Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: TN Posts: 5	Re: Two In A Row!!!! Keeping up with the Jones'---that's the truth!

November 18th, 2003, 01:00	#19
Kingairer Old Skool Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Nomadic...World Wide Boobie Bungalow Bouncer Posts: 3,421	Re: Two In A Row!!!! Dont forget about the Pipers they have. Those things are brand new also, and thus far have had a horrible dispatch rate from what ive heard. The diamonds are very nice aircraft. Remember guys that the DA20 is a VFR only aircraft(due the make of the airplane and stuff im to lazy to type) and thus its only used for PVt pilots and some commercial. the Da40 IS ifr certified and a very comfortable and reliable aircraft in the clouds. Most of the ones they have have Hartzel, "normal", Props. The diamonds have a new feel to them that a New cessna or Piper just doesnt have. In a new piper your flying 1960 technology with a nice avionics package. What are you up to Mtsuer?

November 20th, 2003, 22:36	#20
mtsu_av8er Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Bach's Arco Pitcairn Posts: 13,404	Re: Two In A Row!!!! kingairer...What's up, man? Not alot here, just doing the school thing. What have you been up to????

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