Cheap if not free flight training

SLOWRIDER · October 29th, 2009, 17:38

Hey,

Job market in San Diego sucks and to top it off the flight schools like to give jobs to instructors on a VISA. I have a pretty OK non aviation job here for the time being and would be willing to take on an instrument or comm. ME student for next to nothing if not free. No catch, you have to pay for the airplane and all of your study materials. Americans only! And no slackers accepted. I have 1000+ TT, 450 PIC ME, 80% + pass rate and am a 2yr CFI. If you or anybody you know is interested let me know.

poser765 · October 29th, 2009, 17:43

CRJDriver · October 29th, 2009, 17:54

Oh boy...

Since you are new to JC and only have one post, I'm not sure if this is flamebait or if you are serious?!

SLOWRIDER · October 29th, 2009, 18:01

Flamebait? Ahhhh no, it’s called wanting to fly and nobody hiring. I pay on a loan for something I’m not even doing right now, so if somebody out there would like to save some money and help me stay in the air, that’s compensation enough for me. HAHA flamebait, WTF?

anthenry · October 29th, 2009, 18:52

You are attempting to take work and money from another flight instructor. You said you have a good paying job, yet your willing to take work from someone else. Offering free flight instruction when pilots are on the street trying to make money to live isn't the best way to introduce yourself to a forum of pilots, some furloughed or otherwise out of work.

TheresaPilot · October 29th, 2009, 19:13

SLOWRIDER · October 29th, 2009, 19:21

I am a flight instructor and I am trying to obtain work and money that I have every right to obtain (note the title sounds like an ad?), as compensation comes in other forms aside from the dollar bill. My work was taken from me. If there is anybody who would like to pay my costs for staying current and proficient let me know and I will kindly take the posting down. I am not looking to take on a school of students, simply one individual. I have applied to every school in the area and none are hiring, at least not any Americans from what I have seen. Schools are hiring instructors on VISA's for whatever reason; it’s become a problem that I think is overlooked. If we got rid of instructors on their VISA, I think it would make a tremendous difference for those of us still trying to get a CFI job. Are you suggesting that I not fly because I have a job? That I am obligated to pay for flying because I obtained employment outside of aviation? I am a bad person now because I am helping another person while helping myself? Back to the posting... If you would like training for your instrument or comm. multi let me know..... It would be appreciated if we can refrain from making this post about anything else then what the original topic was. The aviation industry is not what it used to be, at some point it helps to stop complaining and take whatever action is necessary to stay in the game. Its cutthroat, get used to it.....

cencal83406 · October 29th, 2009, 19:30

Before this devolves into bashing I think we can establish some truths here:

Most pilots dislike working for free, and dislike those who want to work for free. With that said, you are trying to get work by steeply discounting your cost for services (sounds like regional on regional).

We can all appreciate that it's hard to find work, but before you cheapen yourself (because, work or no work, you're worth much more than free), might I suggest this:

If you are having trouble getting money for flying and have another job, can you "DONATE" your flight instruction to troubled youths, or EAA Young Eagles? Someone who would benefit not necessarily from only the introduction to flying, but having an instructor who is willing to mentor them. It's probably a lot more work, but I think you'll get a lot more sympathy, good will, and kudos from people around here if you were to offer up free instruction to someone deserving of, in essence, a "scholarship".

flyingmaniac · October 29th, 2009, 19:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by cencal83406

If you are having trouble getting money for flying and have another job, can you "DONATE" your flight instruction to troubled youths, or EAA Young Eagles? Someone who would benefit not necessarily from only the introduction to flying, but having an instructor who is willing to mentor them. It's probably a lot more work, but I think you'll get a lot more sympathy, good will, and kudos from people around here if you were to offer up free instruction to someone deserving of, in essence, a "scholarship".

muffinman · October 29th, 2009, 19:57

You being in CA, I really don't have a dog in this fight, but I would be POed if you came to my field and offered free or "next to free" flight training. This causes a trickle down effect. when a student goes to their flight instructor and says "hey, why are you charging me? That guys doing it for free".

I admire your desire to keep busy, but don't give it a way.. like you said there are other definitions of compensation... Well there are other definitions of prostitution too.

Don't be a prostitute

CRJDriver · October 29th, 2009, 19:59

Just stop working or flying for free! There are more than enough people out there already!!

This is an actual Advertisement I saw today...

Hi I am a Commercial pilot with a Instument and multi engine rating. I will fly you anywhere for the rental of the plane. I am capable of flying anthing from a cessna to a multi engine aircraft. You can fly for fun and scenery or for work just give me a call and we will work something out. Thanks Roy

Now, you will probably tell me that is ok as well? Don't you think the pilot should be compensated for his time and service? I'm sure he has invested plenty of time, energy and money to obtain his ratings.

I see advertisements and hear of people like you on a daily basis, and it gets my blood boiling really fast. People flying for free, undercutting another pilot on price, paying for flight time. It makes me sick! I understand what you are saying by helping out another pilot by trying to save him money, etc., but like already suggested above, donate that time to EAA or something similar. You can't be that desperate for flight time. I've been out of a job for 10 months, I use my own money out of my pocket to keep current. I don't go out and start advertising for free flight instruction, etc.

This is exactly what's wrong with this industry!!

esa17 · October 29th, 2009, 20:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by SLOWRIDER

Flamebait? Ahhhh no, it’s called wanting to fly and nobody hiring. I pay on a loan for something I’m not even doing right now, so if somebody out there would like to save some money and help me stay in the air, that’s compensation enough for me. HAHA flamebait, WTF?

It's also screwing those of us who are flying and getting paid in the down market. Your willingness to fly for free takes food out of my mouth and cheapens MY profession.

SLOWRIDER · October 29th, 2009, 20:20

Riiiight, again we are avoiding the whole reason I am out of work, flight instructors on VISA's who are not American citizens TAKING MY JOB.... why is this so overlooked? I said I have an "ok" job, not that I am daddy war bucks, somebody want to give me a job? Or should I just suffer like the rest of you? You are right, aviation is cutthroat. What American can afford flight training in this economy? I can’t afford to pay for the rest of my 200 hours to hit 135 mins.... I am getting paid with free flight time. Would you be happy if I said I was going to make tons of money off my student? It’s easy for you guys to chime in with your opinions, but I will do what I have to do to get out of a warehouse and back into the air.... hope you can understand, if not I will be happy to buy you a box of Kleenex. Hey if you wanna pay off my flight and college loans I'll walk away all together!

Gonzo · October 29th, 2009, 20:22

Slow - I hope people don't find out your real name.

CRJDriver · October 29th, 2009, 20:27

You don't get it dude! There are plenty of guys out there with NO jobs, studnet loan payments, families to feed, etc. What if you get those 200 hours to 135 mins? It's not like some company will hire you the next day. We all know how you feel and it sucks, big time! You are not the only one.

Just remember, aviation is a small world! I'm done.

SLOWRIDER · October 29th, 2009, 20:28

Ha-ha says that black pimp. Are they not going to give me a job? You mean I'll be in the same situation I am now? Please, I am looking for one "deserving student," that would like to work on his Instrument or Comm. rating, at rates to reflect the down economy. Is that better?

SLOWRIDER · October 29th, 2009, 20:31

And again, anybody care to comment on the VISA instructors who are really taking away "our" work? There are thousands of them!

Gonzo · October 29th, 2009, 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by SLOWRIDER

Ha-ha says that black pimp. Are they not going to give me a job? You mean I'll be in the same situation I am now? Please, I am looking for one "deserving student," that would like to work on his Instrument or Comm. rating, at rates to reflect the down economy. Is that better?

This career is about networking and who you know, not about hours in your logbook. Guys like CJ (CRJDriver) have guys trying to find him jobs, do you know why? My point is don't take a long term hit for a short term goal. 135 mins will do you nothing in this economy very few people are getting jobs without help.

Gonzo · October 29th, 2009, 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by SLOWRIDER

And again, anybody care to comment on the VISA instructors who are really taking away "our" work? There are thousands of them!

It is not happening in my area so I can't help you there.

juxtapilot · October 29th, 2009, 20:45

Hi, I am an out of work CFI looking for a PAYING job.

Think about what you are saying/doing. With your post, you have lowered the bar to an unacceptable level.

SLOWRIDER · October 29th, 2009, 20:52

Yeah you are right, just like how I have people that can slide me into work, once I have the time. So I guess it works both ways, trying to determine a person’s character online is a difficult thing to do, I am not a bad guy, I’m just willing to do what I have to do to get the time... The people that I know are willing to overlook that I helped out a struggling American student in a down economy so that I could reach mins. to progress in my career. Like I keep saying and it keeps getting overlooked, non American working on visas are taking jobs away, non American working on visas are taking jobs away, non American working on visas are taking jobs away, non American working on visas are taking jobs away, on American working on visas are taking jobs away… You want to be angry at somebody...? you want to stop people like me from going to desperate measures to get flight time, go talk to the chief pilots that hire these foreign guys... I say 200 because then I have the mins. can pay to stay current and sit with the rest in the unemployment line. I am not looking to take anymore then what I need. You can do what you want; I’m not looking to have my 50k go out the door because I refuse to fly for low dollars. I love to fly… cant we just accept that aviation will never be the same, ever?

cencal83406 · October 29th, 2009, 20:57

"It's not my fault, it's someone else's!"

Sorry dude, I was trying to give you a solid piece of advice whereby you could give away instruction without undercutting.... but you keep blaming wanting to work for free on people with legal VISAs.... they're paying taxes like me, so they're not exactly a burden on us. You may want to consider moving away from SD to a place where you can get a flight instructing job. Also, check out the "1000 TT and less post them as you find them" thread for jobs you can get at low time to bump your time up over the "hump" you're at right now.

Most of us are really just trying to help - no need for you to get defensive.... but accept personal responsibility. It is NOT the Chief Pilots or the VISA'd CFIs faults you don't have a job.....

Gonzo · October 29th, 2009, 20:59

Like I said, I know of no school the is bringing in CFI's on visas. It would help us if you named a few(4-5) schools doing this. My guess is you can't name more then 1 or 2 schools doing this.

anthenry · October 29th, 2009, 21:06

Foreign students coming to the US and becoming rated instructors and then instructing other foreign studetns in the US is no concern of mine. Foreignors teaching foreigners is one thing; offering free instruction and undercutting an industry is another.

Justify it how you want, but don't expect help from others when you're bringing the industry down. We want to make the aviation community better. We want to improve quality of live and working conditions.

juxtapilot · October 29th, 2009, 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by SLOWRIDER

Yeah you are right, just like how I have people that can slide me into work, once I have the time. So I guess it works both ways, trying to determine a person’s character online is a difficult thing to do, I am not a bad guy, I’m just willing to do what I have to do to get the time... The people that I know are willing to overlook that I helped out a struggling American student in a down economy so that I could reach mins. to progress in my career. Like I keep saying and it keeps getting overlooked, non American working on visas are taking jobs away, non American working on visas are taking jobs away, non American working on visas are taking jobs away, non American working on visas are taking jobs away, on American working on visas are taking jobs away… You want to be angry at somebody...? you want to stop people like me from going to desperate measures to get flight time, go talk to the chief pilots that hire these foreign guys... I say 200 because then I have the mins. can pay to stay current and sit with the rest in the unemployment line. I am not looking to take anymore then what I need. You can do what you want; I’m not looking to have my 50k go out the door because I refuse to fly for low dollars. I love to fly… cant we just accept that aviation will never be the same, ever?

You don't get it. You are taking a paying job away from a CFI who needs to pay the bills.

As for the foreign students: flight schools train students to be CFIs. The students can then instruct for a certain amount of time (up to a year I believe) before they return to their home country. I have no problems with this.

You're right in that aviation won't ever be the same, so long as there are people willing and ready to undercut other pilots.

October 29th, 2009, 17:38	#1
SLOWRIDER Newbie Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: san diego Posts: 15	Cheap if not free flight training Hey, Job market in San Diego sucks and to top it off the flight schools like to give jobs to instructors on a VISA. I have a pretty OK non aviation job here for the time being and would be willing to take on an instrument or comm. ME student for next to nothing if not free. No catch, you have to pay for the airplane and all of your study materials. Americans only! And no slackers accepted. I have 1000+ TT, 450 PIC ME, 80% + pass rate and am a 2yr CFI. If you or anybody you know is interested let me know.

October 29th, 2009, 17:43	#2
poser765 Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Oklahoma City Posts: 1,228	Re: Cheap if not free flight training __________________ HOW CAN SHE SLAP!!!

October 29th, 2009, 17:54	#3
CRJDriver Old Skool Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: KBOI Posts: 2,183	Re: Cheap if not free flight training Oh boy... Since you are new to JC and only have one post, I'm not sure if this is flamebait or if you are serious?!

October 29th, 2009, 18:01	#4
SLOWRIDER Newbie Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: san diego Posts: 15	Re: Cheap if not free flight training Flamebait? Ahhhh no, it’s called wanting to fly and nobody hiring. I pay on a loan for something I’m not even doing right now, so if somebody out there would like to save some money and help me stay in the air, that’s compensation enough for me. HAHA flamebait, WTF?

October 29th, 2009, 18:52	#5
anthenry Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: PHX Posts: 95	Re: Cheap if not free flight training You are attempting to take work and money from another flight instructor. You said you have a good paying job, yet your willing to take work from someone else. Offering free flight instruction when pilots are on the street trying to make money to live isn't the best way to introduce yourself to a forum of pilots, some furloughed or otherwise out of work. Last edited by anthenry; October 29th, 2009 at 18:59.

October 29th, 2009, 19:13	#6
TheresaPilot Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: North Dallas Posts: 704	Re: Cheap if not free flight training __________________ THERESA CMEL/CSEL CFI/CFII 1046TT 125ME

October 29th, 2009, 19:21	#7
SLOWRIDER Newbie Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: san diego Posts: 15	Re: Cheap if not free flight training I am a flight instructor and I am trying to obtain work and money that I have every right to obtain (note the title sounds like an ad?), as compensation comes in other forms aside from the dollar bill. My work was taken from me. If there is anybody who would like to pay my costs for staying current and proficient let me know and I will kindly take the posting down. I am not looking to take on a school of students, simply one individual. I have applied to every school in the area and none are hiring, at least not any Americans from what I have seen. Schools are hiring instructors on VISA's for whatever reason; it’s become a problem that I think is overlooked. If we got rid of instructors on their VISA, I think it would make a tremendous difference for those of us still trying to get a CFI job. Are you suggesting that I not fly because I have a job? That I am obligated to pay for flying because I obtained employment outside of aviation? I am a bad person now because I am helping another person while helping myself? Back to the posting... If you would like training for your instrument or comm. multi let me know..... It would be appreciated if we can refrain from making this post about anything else then what the original topic was. The aviation industry is not what it used to be, at some point it helps to stop complaining and take whatever action is necessary to stay in the game. Its cutthroat, get used to it.....

October 29th, 2009, 19:30	#8
cencal83406 Old Skool Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 1,757	Re: Cheap if not free flight training Before this devolves into bashing I think we can establish some truths here: Most pilots dislike working for free, and dislike those who want to work for free. With that said, you are trying to get work by steeply discounting your cost for services (sounds like regional on regional). We can all appreciate that it's hard to find work, but before you cheapen yourself (because, work or no work, you're worth much more than free), might I suggest this: If you are having trouble getting money for flying and have another job, can you "DONATE" your flight instruction to troubled youths, or EAA Young Eagles? Someone who would benefit not necessarily from only the introduction to flying, but having an instructor who is willing to mentor them. It's probably a lot more work, but I think you'll get a lot more sympathy, good will, and kudos from people around here if you were to offer up free instruction to someone deserving of, in essence, a "scholarship". __________________

October 29th, 2009, 19:57	#10
muffinman Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Drury Lane Posts: 124	Re: Cheap if not free flight training You being in CA, I really don't have a dog in this fight, but I would be POed if you came to my field and offered free or "next to free" flight training. This causes a trickle down effect. when a student goes to their flight instructor and says "hey, why are you charging me? That guys doing it for free". I admire your desire to keep busy, but don't give it a way.. like you said there are other definitions of compensation... Well there are other definitions of prostitution too. Don't be a prostitute __________________ http://www.centexflighttraining.com

October 29th, 2009, 19:59	#11
CRJDriver Old Skool Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: KBOI Posts: 2,183	Re: Cheap if not free flight training Just stop working or flying for free! There are more than enough people out there already!! This is an actual Advertisement I saw today... Hi I am a Commercial pilot with a Instument and multi engine rating. I will fly you anywhere for the rental of the plane. I am capable of flying anthing from a cessna to a multi engine aircraft. You can fly for fun and scenery or for work just give me a call and we will work something out. Thanks Roy Now, you will probably tell me that is ok as well? Don't you think the pilot should be compensated for his time and service? I'm sure he has invested plenty of time, energy and money to obtain his ratings. I see advertisements and hear of people like you on a daily basis, and it gets my blood boiling really fast. People flying for free, undercutting another pilot on price, paying for flight time. It makes me sick! I understand what you are saying by helping out another pilot by trying to save him money, etc., but like already suggested above, donate that time to EAA or something similar. You can't be that desperate for flight time. I've been out of a job for 10 months, I use my own money out of my pocket to keep current. I don't go out and start advertising for free flight instruction, etc. This is exactly what's wrong with this industry!!

October 29th, 2009, 20:20	#13
SLOWRIDER Newbie Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: san diego Posts: 15	Re: Cheap if not free flight training Riiiight, again we are avoiding the whole reason I am out of work, flight instructors on VISA's who are not American citizens TAKING MY JOB.... why is this so overlooked? I said I have an "ok" job, not that I am daddy war bucks, somebody want to give me a job? Or should I just suffer like the rest of you? You are right, aviation is cutthroat. What American can afford flight training in this economy? I can’t afford to pay for the rest of my 200 hours to hit 135 mins.... I am getting paid with free flight time. Would you be happy if I said I was going to make tons of money off my student? It’s easy for you guys to chime in with your opinions, but I will do what I have to do to get out of a warehouse and back into the air.... hope you can understand, if not I will be happy to buy you a box of Kleenex. Hey if you wanna pay off my flight and college loans I'll walk away all together!

October 29th, 2009, 20:22	#14
Gonzo Old Skool Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 2,388	Re: Cheap if not free flight training Slow - I hope people don't find out your real name. __________________

October 29th, 2009, 20:27	#15
CRJDriver Old Skool Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: KBOI Posts: 2,183	Re: Cheap if not free flight training You don't get it dude! There are plenty of guys out there with NO jobs, studnet loan payments, families to feed, etc. What if you get those 200 hours to 135 mins? It's not like some company will hire you the next day. We all know how you feel and it sucks, big time! You are not the only one. Just remember, aviation is a small world! I'm done.

October 29th, 2009, 20:28	#16
SLOWRIDER Newbie Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: san diego Posts: 15	Re: Cheap if not free flight training Ha-ha says that black pimp. Are they not going to give me a job? You mean I'll be in the same situation I am now? Please, I am looking for one "deserving student," that would like to work on his Instrument or Comm. rating, at rates to reflect the down economy. Is that better?

October 29th, 2009, 20:31	#17
SLOWRIDER Newbie Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: san diego Posts: 15	Re: Cheap if not free flight training And again, anybody care to comment on the VISA instructors who are really taking away "our" work? There are thousands of them!

October 29th, 2009, 20:45	#20
juxtapilot Old Skool Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: PACNW Posts: 1,977	Re: Cheap if not free flight training Hi, I am an out of work CFI looking for a PAYING job. Think about what you are saying/doing. With your post, you have lowered the bar to an unacceptable level. __________________ Summer is the season when the air pollution is much warmer.

October 29th, 2009, 20:52	#21
SLOWRIDER Newbie Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: san diego Posts: 15	Re: Cheap if not free flight training Yeah you are right, just like how I have people that can slide me into work, once I have the time. So I guess it works both ways, trying to determine a person’s character online is a difficult thing to do, I am not a bad guy, I’m just willing to do what I have to do to get the time... The people that I know are willing to overlook that I helped out a struggling American student in a down economy so that I could reach mins. to progress in my career. Like I keep saying and it keeps getting overlooked, non American working on visas are taking jobs away, non American working on visas are taking jobs away, non American working on visas are taking jobs away, non American working on visas are taking jobs away, on American working on visas are taking jobs away… You want to be angry at somebody...? you want to stop people like me from going to desperate measures to get flight time, go talk to the chief pilots that hire these foreign guys... I say 200 because then I have the mins. can pay to stay current and sit with the rest in the unemployment line. I am not looking to take anymore then what I need. You can do what you want; I’m not looking to have my 50k go out the door because I refuse to fly for low dollars. I love to fly… cant we just accept that aviation will never be the same, ever?

October 29th, 2009, 20:57	#22
cencal83406 Old Skool Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 1,757	Re: Cheap if not free flight training "It's not my fault, it's someone else's!" Sorry dude, I was trying to give you a solid piece of advice whereby you could give away instruction without undercutting.... but you keep blaming wanting to work for free on people with legal VISAs.... they're paying taxes like me, so they're not exactly a burden on us. You may want to consider moving away from SD to a place where you can get a flight instructing job. Also, check out the "1000 TT and less post them as you find them" thread for jobs you can get at low time to bump your time up over the "hump" you're at right now. Most of us are really just trying to help - no need for you to get defensive.... but accept personal responsibility. It is NOT the Chief Pilots or the VISA'd CFIs faults you don't have a job..... __________________

October 29th, 2009, 20:59	#23
Gonzo Old Skool Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 2,388	Re: Cheap if not free flight training Like I said, I know of no school the is bringing in CFI's on visas. It would help us if you named a few(4-5) schools doing this. My guess is you can't name more then 1 or 2 schools doing this. __________________

October 29th, 2009, 21:06	#24
anthenry Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: PHX Posts: 95	Re: Cheap if not free flight training Foreign students coming to the US and becoming rated instructors and then instructing other foreign studetns in the US is no concern of mine. Foreignors teaching foreigners is one thing; offering free instruction and undercutting an industry is another. Justify it how you want, but don't expect help from others when you're bringing the industry down. We want to make the aviation community better. We want to improve quality of live and working conditions.

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