Cheap if not free flight training - Page 2

esa17 · October 29th, 2009, 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by SLOWRIDER

Riiiight, again we are avoiding the whole reason I am out of work, flight instructors on VISA's who are not American citizens TAKING MY JOB.... why is this so overlooked? I said I have an "ok" job, not that I am daddy war bucks, somebody want to give me a job? Or should I just suffer like the rest of you?

I don't care why you you're "out of work" in regards to flying. The fact remains that I make my living teaching people to fly and have for years, I don't have another job. Sure times are tough but that is no reason to steal from other pilots. Make no bones about it, you are stealing from us. I'm not suffering for my craft but I'm not driving a BMW either. If you think you know what suffering is I'm willing to bet your are sorely mistaken. Aviation is a very small world and while you may be suffering short-term I can promise you what you are doing is the best way in the world to suffer long-term.

Quote:

What American can afford flight training in this economy?

Plenty, you just have to work hard to find them. Not beg them to come to you by yourself out.

Quote:

I can’t afford to pay for the rest of my 200 hours to hit 135 mins.... I am getting paid with free flight time.

Again, I work hard to get paid with money for flight time.

Quote:

It’s easy for you guys to chime in with your opinions

Yeah it is because I'm working hard to get paid to do what you want to do for free.

Quote:

but I will do what I have to do to get out of a warehouse and back into the air.... hope you can understand, if not I will be happy to buy you a box of Kleenex. Hey if you wanna pay off my flight and college loans I'll walk away all together!

Do what you think is best but consider the consequences.

SLOWRIDER · October 29th, 2009, 21:31

So what the last few posts have said is that if it doesn’t affect you, then you don’t care. I’ll take that attitude too then. I was thinking I might get a person that had a friend, or knew of somebody that had hit a hard time, wanted to fly but just didn’t have the money, etc... Notice I chose ratings that required you to already have your license.... I'm not looking to give instruction to some person who doesn’t realllllllllly want it more than anything else.... And I know that person is out there, thought I might have an easier time finding them here..... And your right, only two that are in my direct area, but they happen to be two big schools.... Scandinavian Flight Academy, California Flight Academy and pretty much any other big pilot mill aside from ATP have the foreigners working for them. I am not blaming anybody, just what has impacted my decision to do this.... 1000TT and less..... Hahah right.

esa17 · October 29th, 2009, 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by SLOWRIDER

So what the last few posts have said is that if it doesn’t affect you, then you don’t care. I’ll take that attitude too then. I was thinking I might get a person that had a friend, or knew of somebody that had hit a hard time, wanted to fly but just didn’t have the money, etc... Notice I chose ratings that required you to already have your license.... I'm not looking to give instruction to some person who doesn’t realllllllllly want it more than anything else.... And I know that person is out there, thought I might have an easier time finding them here..... And your right, only two that are in my direct area, but they happen to be two big schools.... Scandinavian Flight Academy, California Flight Academy and pretty much any other big pilot mill aside from ATP have the foreigners working for them. I am not blaming anybody, just what has impacted my decision to do this.... 1000TT and less..... Hahah right.

You are trying to give something away you paid to be trained for. That is the very antitheses of professionalism which will follow you and plague this industry for years to come.

cencal83406 · October 29th, 2009, 21:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by SLOWRIDER

So what the last few posts have said is that if it doesn’t affect you, then you don’t care. I’ll take that attitude too then. I was thinking I might get a person that had a friend, or knew of somebody that had hit a hard time, wanted to fly but just didn’t have the money, etc... Notice I chose ratings that required you to already have your license.... I'm not looking to give instruction to some person who doesn’t realllllllllly want it more than anything else.... And I know that person is out there, thought I might have an easier time finding them here..... And your right, only two that are in my direct area, but they happen to be two big schools.... Scandinavian Flight Academy, California Flight Academy and pretty much any other big pilot mill aside from ATP have the foreigners working for them. I am not blaming anybody, just what has impacted my decision to do this.... 1000TT and less..... Hahah right.

After writing two posts with excellent suggestions for you and being laughed at in both of them, I agree with Gonzo - I hope we don't figure out your name. I would have suggested that my company was potentially hiring in the next few months (and this is prior to the final 1500 hr bill), but I don't think I'd want someone with your attitude working where I'm at.

Goldmember · October 29th, 2009, 21:40

What does it take for you to get this? Maybe this scenario: you get your 135 gig and its going great. A guy walks in to your owner and says "hey, I'll fly that plane you have out there for $10 an hour where you're paying slowrider $20." Boss is a decent guy so he comes to you and says "slowrider, you're going to either take a pay cut down to $10 or be gone because this guy over here will do it for $10." So you take a cut down to $10 and are pissed but still flying. Then in a couple weeks, another guy comes in and says "hey man, I need to build some time, I'll fly that thing for free." Boss comes to you "fly for free or your fired." What are you going to do? This is what we talk about when we say you're dragging the industry down. And what you may or may not realize is that if 135 guy over here sees his 135 competition paying $10 an hour or FREE, guess what he's going to tell his guys? "Fly for $10 or I'll go find somebody who will because people are obviously willing to do that." God I hate this crap, I have to put up with it every new CFI we hire. They sit around all day devising ways to fly for free or pay to sit right seat, makes me sick.

Goldmember · October 29th, 2009, 21:42

One more thing, get out of mommy and daddy's house and move to where there are flight training positions, there are openings in plenty of places, including mine.

CFIT99 · October 29th, 2009, 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goldmember

What does it take for you to get this? Maybe this scenario: you get your 135 gig and its going great. A guy walks in to your owner and says "hey, I'll fly that plane you have out there for $10 an hour where you're paying slowrider $20." Boss is a decent guy so he comes to you and says "slowrider, you're going to either take a pay cut down to $10 or be gone because this guy over here will do it for $10." So you take a cut down to $10 and are pissed but still flying. Then in a couple weeks, another guy comes in and says "hey man, I need to build some time, I'll fly that thing for free." Boss comes to you "fly for free or your fired." What are you going to do? This is what we talk about when we say you're dragging the industry down. And what you may or may not realize is that if 135 guy over here sees his 135 competition paying $10 an hour or FREE, guess what he's going to tell his guys? "Fly for $10 or I'll go find somebody who will because people are obviously willing to do that." God I hate this crap, I have to put up with it every new CFI we hire. They sit around all day devising ways to fly for free or pay to sit right seat, makes me sick.

you hit the nail on the head before I could!

That scenario happened at one of the jobs I flew at about a year ago, ended up demanding his pilots fly for free after someone said that he would...well ended up all the pilots quitting and to this day he can't find anyone to fly his 172's or 206's b/c he wants people to fly for FREE.

Please don't turn this PROFESSION into a HOBBY!

SLOWRIDER · October 29th, 2009, 21:51

HAHA, MOMMY AND DADDYS HOUSE? OUT OF THERE AT 17 BUDDY... GOOD ONE THOUGH, AND LIKE I MENTIONED IN ONE OF THE FIRST POSTS.... IF ANYBODY HAD A JOB OR KNEW OF AN OPENING... LET ME KNOW......

HAHA YOU ACT LIKE I DONT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT TEACHING..... IVE GOT ALMOST 1000 HOURS OF DUAL, AND I KNOW OF PEOPLE THAT DID THE SAME THING I OFFERED HERE, THEY ARE ALL EMPLYOEED WITH DESCENT JOBS FLYING... I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE SAYING...

muffinman · October 29th, 2009, 21:55

I think the point that we are trying to make is what comes around goes around. Just cause it sounds like a good and quick way to get the time does not mean its a good idea.

It's like borrowing money, at some point it's gonna have to be paid back.. In this case its after you have several years on the job, good pay and high seniority. Then some punk is going to come in and offer to do what you do for half the rate. AND it won't even matter if he does it better.

This is the same thing that happened with all the computer engineering and technical support jobs about 5 years ago. It doesn't matter if the customer complain cause the guys don't speak english.. They are paying them $1.5/hr over paying someone else $25/hr.

SLOWRIDER · October 29th, 2009, 22:04

Ok. I am sorry guys.... Shame on me. Forget the post is even on here... Really not worth the effort anymore

Doug Taylor · October 29th, 2009, 22:07

Right after the San Jose FSDO signed my temporary certificate, he told me "Don't work for free".

If you need some flight time, talk to the Young Eagles or something that like so at least your time is reinvested in the profession.

If I was a CFI and I just lost a bunch of students because another CFI is giving away product for free, I'd consider that highly unprofessional.

Times are tough, undoubtedly, but if it's hard to survive on a CFI job, it'll be even harder for other CFI's having to compete with "free" and "free" won't pay your loans anyway.

NickH · October 29th, 2009, 22:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by SLOWRIDER

Riiiight, again we are avoiding the whole reason I am out of work, flight instructors on VISA's who are not American citizens TAKING MY JOB.... why is this so overlooked?

Aside from you taking away work from honest working instructors of any nationality with your fly for free attitude.

As a flight instructor who is not an American citizen, I take great exception to this. For you to target the very small number of flight instructors who are attendng the very small number of schools that offer visas that allow employment, is simply a product of your ignorance.

Stop whining on an online forum and get out there and look for a job! The biggest problem you have is your attitude. With your hatred of foreigners I certainly wouldn't hire you into a business that issued any visas. Further I would suggest that by blaming others for your inability to find work, you are simply projecting. Your inability to recognise it shows that you are lacking in fundamentals as an instructor.

This, along with your stated desire only for hours and not to educate, may be the reason you aren't getting the jobs you apply for (if you're even applying).

muffinman · October 29th, 2009, 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

If I was a CFI and I just lost a bunch of students because another CFI is giving away product for free, I'd consider that highly unprofessional.

Ever watch the sopranos?

juxtapilot · October 29th, 2009, 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by SLOWRIDER

So what the last few posts have said is that if it doesn’t affect you, then you don’t care. I’ll take that attitude too then. I was thinking I might get a person that had a friend, or knew of somebody that had hit a hard time, wanted to fly but just didn’t have the money, etc... Notice I chose ratings that required you to already have your license.... I'm not looking to give instruction to some person who doesn’t realllllllllly want it more than anything else.... And I know that person is out there, thought I might have an easier time finding them here..... And your right, only two that are in my direct area, but they happen to be two big schools.... Scandinavian Flight Academy, California Flight Academy and pretty much any other big pilot mill aside from ATP have the foreigners working for them. I am not blaming anybody, just what has impacted my decision to do this.... 1000TT and less..... Hahah right.

Fantastic. You are going to make lots of friends in this industry.

I am done with you.

Doug Taylor · October 29th, 2009, 22:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by muffinman

Ever watch the sopranos?

An episode or two! Couldn't really get into it though.

muffinman · October 29th, 2009, 22:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by SLOWRIDER

IVE GOT ALMOST 1000 HOURS OF DUAL,

Given or received??

esa17 · October 29th, 2009, 22:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by SLOWRIDER

Hey,
Job market in San Diego sucks and to top it off the flight schools like to give jobs to instructors on a VISA. I have a pretty OK non aviation job here for the time being and would be willing to take on an instrument or comm. ME student for next to nothing if not free. No catch, you have to pay for the airplane and all of your study materials. Americans only! And no slackers accepted. I have 1000+ TT, 450 PIC ME, 80% + pass rate and am a 2yr CFI. If you or anybody you know is interested let me know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SLOWRIDER

HAHA, MOMMY AND DADDYS HOUSE? OUT OF THERE AT 17 BUDDY... GOOD ONE THOUGH, AND LIKE I MENTIONED IN ONE OF THE FIRST POSTS.... IF ANYBODY HAD A JOB OR KNEW OF AN OPENING... LET ME KNOW......

HAHA YOU ACT LIKE I DONT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT TEACHING..... IVE GOT ALMOST 1000 HOURS OF DUAL, AND I KNOW OF PEOPLE THAT DID THE SAME THING I OFFERED HERE, THEY ARE ALL EMPLYOEED WITH DESCENT JOBS FLYING... I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE SAYING...

Which is it? You have 1000 TT or 1000 dual given?

If you did understand anything about teaching you would take pride in it and wouldn't give your "services" away anyplace but the casting couch.

SLOWRIDER · October 29th, 2009, 22:31

NickH... This has gotten lost in the barrage of posts, and you are making large assumptions, don’t comment on my instructing or anything on a personal level... Instructors on a Visa came in and worked for less and as a result.... Being that I demanded a premium for my services, I lost a job... All I was looking for was to help out another "student pilot” and myself at the same time. There is no plural in that, a single student, not a career of free flight instruction. And I am not whining on here at all... People make assumptions, assume I’m going to steal all their students it’s kind of funny. I was looking for ONE student having a hard time at obtaining what he wants.... This is staying in my area, not yours, and if you do live in SD you can say all that to my face. If you live in SD and would like to talk to me feel free, but if you are not in the direct area... don’t bother. If I grab a student getting raped in costs for crap instruction and help him out while helping myself out.... I really don’t care. It’s a forum with people freaking out... not a sit down face to face conversation. You just make the assumption that I am going to do this with every job in aviation... I am looking for a student... this doesn’t project a lack of any fundamentals. I was looking to help out a student and myself, nothing more……

SLOWRIDER · October 29th, 2009, 22:33

1079tt 773dual 450me... Jesus, u guys are freaking out.....

SLOWRIDER · October 29th, 2009, 22:34

Goldmember · October 29th, 2009, 22:41

Somebody came in offering to CFI for a lower price than you and you lost a job as the result of it? Does anybody else see the irony here?

SLOWRIDER · October 29th, 2009, 22:47

35 were hired... willing to take for pay... this isnt about me flying students for free... this was about me helping out a student in need and helping me stay in the air. I guess I am not entitled to help out a student and myself...I'm a bad bad bad person for doing that.... Im not gonna take some rich kid and teach him for free.... I just assumed that would be a given... I see now, its not. You say its ok if I do it for the student that cant pay... but if they have money they must pay is all I see here...Im over it... if you live in SD and would like to sit down and talk im open... <edited>.

flyingmaniac · October 29th, 2009, 23:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by SLOWRIDER

35 were hired... willing to take for pay... this isnt about me flying students for free... this was about me helping out a student in need and helping me stay in the air. I guess I am not entitled to help out a student and myself...I'm a bad bad bad person for doing that.... Im not gonna take some rich kid and teach him for free.... I just assumed that would be a given... I see now, its not. You say its ok if I do it for the student that cant pay... but if they have money they must pay is all I see here...Im over it... if you live in SD and would like to sit down and talk im open... <edited>.

I get it! Your attitude is why you cannot find a flying job!

Ring the bells!!!

esa17 · October 29th, 2009, 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by SLOWRIDER

35 were hired... willing to take for pay... this isnt about me flying students for free... .

Make no mistake, this is exactly what this is about.

I'll be in SC for vacation / Robbie school after the first of the year. I'll be happy to show all the ways you're wrong and bill you for an hour of ground.

CFIT99 · October 29th, 2009, 23:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by esa17

I'll be happy to show all the ways you're wrong and bill you for an hour of ground.

HAHAHAHA

October 29th, 2009, 21:31	#27
SLOWRIDER Newbie Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: san diego Posts: 15	Re: Cheap if not free flight training So what the last few posts have said is that if it doesn’t affect you, then you don’t care. I’ll take that attitude too then. I was thinking I might get a person that had a friend, or knew of somebody that had hit a hard time, wanted to fly but just didn’t have the money, etc... Notice I chose ratings that required you to already have your license.... I'm not looking to give instruction to some person who doesn’t realllllllllly want it more than anything else.... And I know that person is out there, thought I might have an easier time finding them here..... And your right, only two that are in my direct area, but they happen to be two big schools.... Scandinavian Flight Academy, California Flight Academy and pretty much any other big pilot mill aside from ATP have the foreigners working for them. I am not blaming anybody, just what has impacted my decision to do this.... 1000TT and less..... Hahah right.

October 29th, 2009, 21:40	#30
Goldmember Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Louisville, KY. Posts: 204	Re: Cheap if not free flight training What does it take for you to get this? Maybe this scenario: you get your 135 gig and its going great. A guy walks in to your owner and says "hey, I'll fly that plane you have out there for $10 an hour where you're paying slowrider $20." Boss is a decent guy so he comes to you and says "slowrider, you're going to either take a pay cut down to $10 or be gone because this guy over here will do it for $10." So you take a cut down to $10 and are pissed but still flying. Then in a couple weeks, another guy comes in and says "hey man, I need to build some time, I'll fly that thing for free." Boss comes to you "fly for free or your fired." What are you going to do? This is what we talk about when we say you're dragging the industry down. And what you may or may not realize is that if 135 guy over here sees his 135 competition paying $10 an hour or FREE, guess what he's going to tell his guys? "Fly for $10 or I'll go find somebody who will because people are obviously willing to do that." God I hate this crap, I have to put up with it every new CFI we hire. They sit around all day devising ways to fly for free or pay to sit right seat, makes me sick. __________________ What are we going to do tonight brain? --Same thing we do every night Pinky, try and take over the world.

October 29th, 2009, 21:42	#31
Goldmember Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Louisville, KY. Posts: 204	Re: Cheap if not free flight training One more thing, get out of mommy and daddy's house and move to where there are flight training positions, there are openings in plenty of places, including mine. __________________ What are we going to do tonight brain? --Same thing we do every night Pinky, try and take over the world.

October 29th, 2009, 21:51	#33
SLOWRIDER Newbie Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: san diego Posts: 15	Re: Cheap if not free flight training HAHA, MOMMY AND DADDYS HOUSE? OUT OF THERE AT 17 BUDDY... GOOD ONE THOUGH, AND LIKE I MENTIONED IN ONE OF THE FIRST POSTS.... IF ANYBODY HAD A JOB OR KNEW OF AN OPENING... LET ME KNOW...... HAHA YOU ACT LIKE I DONT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT TEACHING..... IVE GOT ALMOST 1000 HOURS OF DUAL, AND I KNOW OF PEOPLE THAT DID THE SAME THING I OFFERED HERE, THEY ARE ALL EMPLYOEED WITH DESCENT JOBS FLYING... I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE SAYING...

October 29th, 2009, 21:55	#34
muffinman Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Drury Lane Posts: 124	Re: Cheap if not free flight training I think the point that we are trying to make is what comes around goes around. Just cause it sounds like a good and quick way to get the time does not mean its a good idea. It's like borrowing money, at some point it's gonna have to be paid back.. In this case its after you have several years on the job, good pay and high seniority. Then some punk is going to come in and offer to do what you do for half the rate. AND it won't even matter if he does it better. This is the same thing that happened with all the computer engineering and technical support jobs about 5 years ago. It doesn't matter if the customer complain cause the guys don't speak english.. They are paying them $1.5/hr over paying someone else $25/hr. __________________ http://www.centexflighttraining.com

October 29th, 2009, 22:04	#35
SLOWRIDER Newbie Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: san diego Posts: 15	Re: Cheap if not free flight training Ok. I am sorry guys.... Shame on me. Forget the post is even on here... Really not worth the effort anymore

October 29th, 2009, 22:07	#36
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 50,355 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Cheap if not free flight training Right after the San Jose FSDO signed my temporary certificate, he told me "Don't work for free". If you need some flight time, talk to the Young Eagles or something that like so at least your time is reinvested in the profession. If I was a CFI and I just lost a bunch of students because another CFI is giving away product for free, I'd consider that highly unprofessional. Times are tough, undoubtedly, but if it's hard to survive on a CFI job, it'll be even harder for other CFI's having to compete with "free" and "free" won't pay your loans anyway. __________________ Doug Taylor PPL-SEL PA-38 Typed

October 29th, 2009, 22:31	#43
SLOWRIDER Newbie Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: san diego Posts: 15	Re: Cheap if not free flight training NickH... This has gotten lost in the barrage of posts, and you are making large assumptions, don’t comment on my instructing or anything on a personal level... Instructors on a Visa came in and worked for less and as a result.... Being that I demanded a premium for my services, I lost a job... All I was looking for was to help out another "student pilot” and myself at the same time. There is no plural in that, a single student, not a career of free flight instruction. And I am not whining on here at all... People make assumptions, assume I’m going to steal all their students it’s kind of funny. I was looking for ONE student having a hard time at obtaining what he wants.... This is staying in my area, not yours, and if you do live in SD you can say all that to my face. If you live in SD and would like to talk to me feel free, but if you are not in the direct area... don’t bother. If I grab a student getting raped in costs for crap instruction and help him out while helping myself out.... I really don’t care. It’s a forum with people freaking out... not a sit down face to face conversation. You just make the assumption that I am going to do this with every job in aviation... I am looking for a student... this doesn’t project a lack of any fundamentals. I was looking to help out a student and myself, nothing more……

October 29th, 2009, 22:33	#44
SLOWRIDER Newbie Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: san diego Posts: 15	Re: Cheap if not free flight training 1079tt 773dual 450me... Jesus, u guys are freaking out.....

October 29th, 2009, 22:34	#45
SLOWRIDER Newbie Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: san diego Posts: 15	Re: Cheap if not free flight training

October 29th, 2009, 22:41	#46
Goldmember Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Louisville, KY. Posts: 204	Re: Cheap if not free flight training Somebody came in offering to CFI for a lower price than you and you lost a job as the result of it? Does anybody else see the irony here? __________________ What are we going to do tonight brain? --Same thing we do every night Pinky, try and take over the world.

October 29th, 2009, 22:47	#47
SLOWRIDER Newbie Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: san diego Posts: 15	Re: Cheap if not free flight training 35 were hired... willing to take for pay... this isnt about me flying students for free... this was about me helping out a student in need and helping me stay in the air. I guess I am not entitled to help out a student and myself...I'm a bad bad bad person for doing that.... Im not gonna take some rich kid and teach him for free.... I just assumed that would be a given... I see now, its not. You say its ok if I do it for the student that cant pay... but if they have money they must pay is all I see here...Im over it... if you live in SD and would like to sit down and talk im open... <edited>. Last edited by MQAAord; October 29th, 2009 at 22:59.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode