Tbm 700 pic

[MFT1Air]

Yea, I PM'd him. He's cool with me. I still wanna better understand his perspective that I can play devil's advocate with him.

He's also an engineer. . .with an engineer analytical mentality. I hate engineers!

[HVYMETALDRVR]

Originally Posted by Cessna414JJB

Heavy debt is the worst partner one can have when negotiating pay.
Selling the dream @ double it's value is just one way of accomplishing that.
There are so many poor people around willing to do the job for almost nothing, why should they even consider me?

Because again, you're a highly trained professional, whether you fly cargo or pax. This is what I've been trying to establish. Not everyone can be a pilot, it takes lots of training, expertise, and skill. You can find a bartender off the street pretty easy and train him on the job, you can't really do that with a pilot (unless its a single pilot airplane, but then he is just a passenger).

Originally Posted by Cessna414JJB

No they didn't take a 2 week orientation course. They took a 12 week orientation course during which they ran around like airline captains.
All their flying had a single purpose, and because at 250 hours after 3 months they can barely hold their own as Instructors or Pilots (with exceptions) they now expect to be put into a TBM700 or CRJ making good money. Are you kidding? Why do people not become bartenders? Whats so wrong with making 70K/ year mixing drinks? It only takes 2 weeks of orientation. However, lousy and arrogant bartenders make no 70K, not 30K for that matter.

A 12 week orientation course to fly for that specific company but preceding that was an extensive training period. I went to college and got a 4 year degree, but even someone that went to the FBO probably spent at least a year or so and some intensive studying. Flying ability doesn't matter, if you can't fly an airplane at 300 hours then theres a big problem. I have 1400 hours of course I'm MUCH better now than I was then. But that doesn't mean I couldn't land, couldn't take off or whatever. What about the PTS? And I know what your saying well a CRJ is harder and different to land than a C-172 sure, but the FO still needs to be able to land it. From day 1 most airline pilots switch legs as PF and PNF meaning the FO should be able to do everything the captain can. Does that mean his skills are just as calculating and exacting? of course not, but again he's still a pilot trained to be perfectly capable of flying the aircraft without the captain if need be. IF a mistake is made or something happens the FAA will usually violate both pilots equally no matter whose fault it is.

Originally Posted by Cessna414JJB

The solution to that problem is again attitude. I don't know many 300 pound pilots with a drinking problem. People know that if they become a pilot (unless they fly sport) they will have to apply slightly different rules to their lifestyle. I once got terribly drunk with a dentist. After 4 hours he could barely walk. He had paid for everything being drunk on that table that night, well in excess of $400. While I was out doing my job the next day he told me that he lost far more than the $400. You cannot throw up in a patients face. He had to cancel all and any appointments for that next day.

So the dentist missed a day of pay and has to apologize to his patients. That can be the end of an airline pilots CAREER.

Originally Posted by Cessna414JJB

Again, if you become a bartender, the people you serve may not notice the stink of old alcohol, they may come with their own. The bartenders I see nowadays wear a tie and polished shoes. Good ones never chew gum, never run around sharing their popular choice of music blaring out of their ears. The last time I flew airline, two very young people disappeared in the cockpit. I overhear a woman say: "are these kids our pilots?" A uniform does not make someone a professional. Neither do big watches, expensive sunglasses or golden wings.

Age or not they still take your lives in their hands. Professionalism is defined just as much by attitude and demeanor as dress. I bartend with a girl here in MIA is 18, she comes to work in uniform on time everyday with a smile on her face. She greets all the guest swith respect and is always cheery. To call her unprofessional because she is only 18 would be a huge insult. Why should it be different as a pilot? If you smile make quips with the pax. to make them smile. Then you go out of your way to help the flight attendants and the pilots, going well above and beyond and to top if off you pass every checkride. You fly the airplane within prescribed standards. Why are you any less professional because you are 18,19,20? I'm 25 and my grandma and her friends still call me a kid... but that doesn't mean I'm unprofessional. Two totally different things.

Originally Posted by Cessna414JJB

As long as the airlines have to give this much needed skill and ability to people, and have to teach them how to be a professional, asking for more money is almost grotesqe. In the meantime, keep looking around yourself and experience first hand that your "peers" are willing to stab you in the back at anytime if it brings them an inch closer to their goal. If they can gain, you will loose. Get real, or get a life.
Cheers,

My point EXACTLY. I'm saying that pilots need to grow up and stop doing this. My roomate was a bodyguard in Iraq for 4 yrs, he had is own bulletproof vest he was issued and he said he wouldn't take anything in a combat zone under 120K at the time. He explained to me that any fellow bodyguard that took anything less would basically frowned upon and black balled by his colleagues. Back in the United States he also bodyguarded at a Medical clinic in a much more calm climate he said again, the minimum rate was about 85-95K a year. If a company low balls this they probably won't find anyone. Bodyguard jobs in Iraq are hard to find these days, but recently a company posted BG jobs in the green zone at 7500/month and had a hell of a time finding people.

Now bodyguarding is different than flying, but BGs still have self respect for themselves and their profession. Can an BG do a pilots job any better than a pilot can do a BG's job without any training? I don't want pilots guarding my house in a combat zone anymore than I wont blackwater/triple canopy/MVM guys flying my 737. Why is asking for more "grotesque"? Pilots are the hardest employees to replace in a company, you can train a pilot to be a baggage handler, ticket taker, customer service agent, or flight attendant much quicker than you can train any of those people to fly. When a company hires a pilot they "buy" that person, they buy their previous experience and their personality.

Don't just see yourself as someone "off the street" being trained to fly a CRJ. I dont know any airline that goes down the road looking for immigrants or homeless people to hop in the right seat. There are 274,468 Commercial and ATPs to 299,398,484 US citizens making the ratio only 1:1010 pilots to citizens (if my math is right those figures are from 2006, see wikipedia). Thats hardly and anyone standing on a street working in a restuarant or even in an office building. You've had a heavy amount of previous training and experience and they're purchasing that. How much? well thats up to you.

[HVYMETALDRVR]

Originally Posted by Cessna414JJB

What we can do today is to apply basic courtesy and respect when dealing with each other, communicate just as if you where sitting across the person and be honest. All others may have a chance to learn, critique and contribute. I hate to sound emotional again but in this market and industry, all we have is our peers. Nobody else cares. We have enough experience and skill combined in this place to make a difference. Lets not make that difference through a $30.000 TBM job someone posted out of goodwill. Thats all I have.

Cheers,

I concur. I appreciate the goodwill of the poster, I too have posted jobs and want to help others. I think if we work together and set standards for ourselves things can get better.

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by HVYMETALDRVR

My point EXACTLY. I'm saying that pilots need to grow up and stop doing this. My roomate was a bodyguard in Iraq for 4 yrs, he had is own bulletproof vest he was issued and he said he wouldn't take anything in a combat zone under 120K at the time. He explained to me that any fellow bodyguard that took anything less would basically frowned upon and black balled by his colleagues. Back in the United States he also bodyguarded at a Medical clinic in a much more calm climate he said again, the minimum rate was about 85-95K a year. If a company low balls this they probably won't find anyone. Bodyguard jobs in Iraq are hard to find these days, but recently a company posted BG jobs in the green zone at 7500/month and had a hell of a time finding people.

Now bodyguarding is different than flying, but BGs still have self respect for themselves and their profession. Can an BG do a pilots job any better than a pilot can do a BG's job without any training? I don't want pilots guarding my house in a combat zone anymore than I wont blackwater/triple canopy/MVM guys flying my 737. Why is asking for more "grotesque"? Pilots are the hardest employees to replace in a company, you can train a pilot to be a baggage handler, ticket taker, customer service agent, or flight attendant much quicker than you can train any of those people to fly. When a company hires a pilot they "buy" that person, they buy their previous experience and their personality.

Your position has been superbly addressed. I even agree with you. I believe also you addressed my business viewpoint as well with regard to supply and demand. As there are few bodyguards out there, there are plenty of plenty of nonworking or low paid pilots. When the demand for pilots become higher than the supply, like bodyguards, pilots can command higher salaries. Like your professional waitress, no matter how skilled and professional she is, she's not going to walk into a local restaurant and receive $12-$15 an hour when far too many others out there will accept $9. Is this an effrontery to the labor force? No, it's simply how more supply exceeds demand, so prices must drop.

Personally, kudos to your bodyguard buddy, but if you ask me, at $120k, he was underpaid. I do respect immensely what those guys do even as a civilian as they do place themselves in harm's way, and you know companies abroad will pay the money. He can get more for sure. For a 15 month Iraqi assignment, I was offered $195k for my skill set. I said no. . .referred someone else who took the job for $160k. Supply and demand. The market will shift; salaries will rise in time, but no one should criticize what's being offered or accepted by anyone trying to find employment.

[mshunter]

Man you two are still going at it?

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by mshunter

Man you two are still going at it?

Nope, contrary to a few perceptions on this thread, I do respect his perspective about salaries and increasing those salaries for pilots. I also believe in this sagging, deflated economy, it is unrealistic to expect companies to pay what they paid previously. Companies are downsizing and cutting personnel. Do you really expect to continue with elevated wages? I personally believe no. I also there are many CFIs in locations making significantly less than $30k a year where the position is a significant step higher financially than what they present make. Do you fault/criticize someone who wants to get out of 172s as a CFI and move into a TBM 700 providing turbine time and a pay increase? That's my only real point.

Originally Posted by slushie

$30,000 competitive?

I made that being a gas-boy at Penske.

. . .and given a choice between being a 30k gas-boy, a 22k SIC at a regional, or a 30k 700 pilot, I'd take the latter.

[wrxpilot]

Originally Posted by MFT1Air

Yea, I PM'd him. He's cool with me. I still wanna better understand his perspective that I can play devil's advocate with him.

He's also an engineer. . .with an engineer analytical mentality. I hate engineers!

PM sent... Sorry for the delay, I've been on the road. And going back on the road today!

[Cessna414JJB]

Originally Posted by wrxpilot

I've been on the road. And going back on the road today!

Congrats Wrx, being able to be on the road helps tremendously with not seeing all this mischief and discontent between professional adults.

Being a professional pilot sometimes reminds me of the days when people went door to door trying to sell technically challenged vacuum cleaners to the public. "Look, this one will... oh, you just bought a new one, sorry".
This barrel has no bottom. The TBM job has long been filled, discussing it is as senseless as trying to convince a cow to lay an egg.

[HVYMETALDRVR]

Don't just see yourself as someone "off the street" being trained to fly a CRJ. I dont know any airline that goes down the road looking for immigrants or homeless people to hop in the right seat. There are 274,468 Commercial and ATPs to 299,398,484 US citizens making the ratio only 1:1010 pilots to citizens (if my math is right those figures are from 2006, see wikipedia). Thats hardly and anyone standing on a street working in a restuarant or even in an office building. You've had a heavy amount of previous training and experience and they're purchasing that. How much? well thats up to you.

I say just remember that. I'm not a whiny baby thats never happy, but I don't just roll over and assume the position either. The industry doesn't go anywhere without pilots.

[Cessna414JJB]

The industry doesn't go anywhere without pilots.

I don't know where you get the impression that anyone thinks that homeless people or "immigrants" are preferred material (even though living in vans and not eating properly probably goes for some of your CRJ buddies as well), but the sentence quoted above is the most important. I am starting to develop an allergy against the CRJ syndrom people. I removed my lenghty response as I realized it as a waste of time.

The industry doesn't go anywhere without pilots.

Neither does a dead horse go anywhere, no matter how hard you beat it.

[Murdoughnut]

Salary is only too low if they don't get enough qualified applicants.

[Cessna414JJB]

Originally Posted by Murdoughnut

Salary is only too low if they don't get enough qualified applicants.

How's the shaving coming along?

[BillErvin]

Originally Posted by Murdoughnut

Salary is only too low if they don't get enough qualified applicants.

I think that sums up the argument quite nicely

[nw_jets_2009]

Hey Guys,

I think that its funny that you (previous posters) are complaining about the pay when most of you are either furlowed pilots or guys that are like me that are teaching students in single's. You need to be happy there is a company that is giving you more money than most regionals for less time. You could have a schedule of two weeks on and two weeks off and fly once. Your getting paid the same. Stop complaining and realize that many airlines are not going to pay you #### to sit in a seat and push buttons. Your flying because at one point it was fun and you could make some money doing it.

And for that guy who got paid more money to pump gas and work in a garage then to fly an airplane, do that and stop telling people that are willing to work for 30K a year that we are getting low balled.

For those of you that are furlowed I am sorry, but atleast you are claiming a unemployment check rather than sitting in you FI office wondering if you are going to get a paycheck in the end of two weeks because people are not spending money at the airport.

Get a clue, sit back, and enjoy flying again.

[slushie]

Originally Posted by nw_jets_2009

Hey Guys,
And for that guy who got paid more money to pump gas and work in a garage then to fly an airplane, do that and stop telling people that are willing to work for 30K a year that we are getting low balled.

He, that's me!

Welcome to Jetcareers, btw!

In the words of Stick Stickley, "Simmer down folks. Simmer. Simmer down."

I actually took a paycut when I left the Penske job... to fly full time. Less pay, but it was a reasonable wage for the job I did.

Months later I turned down a VFR 135 flying job. Because the pay did not match the work.

People keep talking about supply and demand. From my understanding, we get to control one of those curves.

This could be a great job, it's just that for that pay, I'd have to hear a few key things.

I won't name the other internet place, but around there these conversations usually start more like this:
--"Hey I got an interview! [Equipment, Position, Location] How much should I be asking?"

So much more concern for our crippled profession. I wish we could cultivate that kind of mentality here. :/

[HVYMETALDRVR]

Originally Posted by nw_jets_2009

Hey Guys,

I think that its funny that you (previous posters) are complaining about the pay when most of you are either furlowed pilots or guys that are like me that are teaching students in single's. You need to be happy there is a company that is giving you more money than most regionals for less time. You could have a schedule of two weeks on and two weeks off and fly once. Your getting paid the same. Stop complaining and realize that many airlines are not going to pay you #### to sit in a seat and push buttons. Your flying because at one point it was fun and you could make some money doing it.

And for that guy who got paid more money to pump gas and work in a garage then to fly an airplane, do that and stop telling people that are willing to work for 30K a year that we are getting low balled.

For those of you that are furlowed I am sorry, but atleast you are claiming a unemployment check rather than sitting in you FI office wondering if you are going to get a paycheck in the end of two weeks because people are not spending money at the airport.

Get a clue, sit back, and enjoy flying again.

Okay, you go ahead and work for that much. I'm going to off to make more. Have fun.

[mshunter]

Originally Posted by HVYMETALDRVR

Okay, you go ahead and work for that much. I'm going to off to make more. Have fun.

BTW NW Jets, welcome to the forums.

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by slushie

People keep talking about supply and demand. From my understanding, we get to control one of those curves.

Actually, we don't.

Originally Posted by slushie

I won't name the other internet place, but around there these conversations usually start more like this:
--"Hey I got an interview! [Equipment, Position, Location] How much should I be asking?"

So much more concern for our crippled profession. I wish we could cultivate that kind of mentality here. :/

Excellent perspective. I agree wholeheartedly.

[slushie]

Originally Posted by MFT1Air

Actually, we don't.

Nunna that, boy! Essplain yerself!

[nw_jets_2009]

Hey Guys,

Did not mean to piss people off. Just frustrated with the current situation with hiring. I would be happy for those that can get paid more money. All I know is that 30K would be a step up for me and when I am faced with a college debt of over 100K more money is more money.

Enlight of what happened earlier this morning I hope that all of us can stay safe with any flying that we are doing.

[Cessna414JJB]

Originally Posted by MFT1Air

Actually, we don't.

I retired from posting to this thread before the new member signed up.
It seriously had the great potential to be what it is.......

A dead Horse!

(heart stopped, blood's out, no, it ain't moving no more! Realy!)

On that thought, note to self, and out.

[Stone Cold]

Originally Posted by nw_jets_2009

Hey Guys,

Did not mean to piss people off. Just frustrated with the current situation with hiring. I would be happy for those that can get paid more money. All I know is that 30K would be a step up for me and when I am faced with a college debt of over 100K more money is more money.

Enlight of what happened earlier this morning I hope that all of us can stay safe with any flying that we are doing.

I'll be nice, but just for perspective, just because you put yourself 100K into the hole and haven't been paid 30K per year yet does not make it a good situation to lower the rates of what a professional should be paid for a specific job.

Oh, and welcome to JC.

[Cessna414JJB]

..................................

and now to Business 101 for absolute beginners:

Have the largest pool of warm bodies available to sit on the sheepskin. Then you can offer the position at price so low that even if only 10% are willing to take the job you have filled the seats. This is not new, it has been going on for decades. They have just been getting better at it over time.

Current bag of tools in use:

- Create and maintain the perception that there is a pilot shortage

- Create and maintain the perception that pilots get paid a pile of money and work very few hours

- Raise the retirement age ( age 65 )

- Lower the barriers to entry ( MPL )


They are winning, have been winning, and nothing is going to stop or slow them down.

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by slushie

Nunna that, boy! Essplain yerself!

Dude, supply and demand. Pilots can demand anything. Employers are in control of what they give. . .provided they have the "supply."

Duh?

[Cessna414JJB]

Originally Posted by MFT1Air

Dude, supply and demand. Pilots can demand anything. Employers are in control of what they give. . .provided they have the "supply."

Duh?

Your equation requires style and pride on at least one side.
Replace your formula with this:

Demand: Low
Supply: Endless

This would, by logical measure equate to more crashes and more incidents.
But, it doesn't - if your remove X (for the bottom of the barrel) the simple fact is that salaries go down whenever people associate a different value to what they do. For some a single turbine is low quality pic time, they won't do it unless it pays well (I still think it pays really well, considering the work and if compared to a regional).
For others $30K/ year beats NOTHING and hey! I get to fly .

But, there will always be arguments. Hardhats against Spineless.
We might as well get over it because nothing will change from us not doing so either.

Our industry is suffering from a complete lack of common sense, greatly fostered by it's most important players......... the PILOTS. Change yourself and the world will change...
Ommmmmmmmmm, Ommmmmmmmm, Ommmmmmmm