Tbm 700 pic

[riccochet]

err, quoting on my own post. didnt finish previous post.
when i said the airline bunch complained the most, i meant because of furloughs. until recently the airlines were the typical furlough'ers now its freight too.......
ote=riccochet;1088494]people who got into the aviation business for the right reasons, those being alot of heart & the pure love of flying, people only capable of tolerating making a living doing something they love, will make it here. those who joined up for the status and moolah probably wont, unless they are the select few who walk on everyone & seem to just have everything fall in their laps.
not everything is about money. but, something that is worth anything requires sacrifice, perseverance & determination.
aviation is a very fickle industry with lotsa ups n downs & relies so much on economy.
aviation is a rich mans game but the poor can succeed in it.
my family was dirt poor, i never went to college & my only career backup comes from 10 years of FBO experience.
i struggled to make my way to the alaskan bush by delivering pizza, working fbos and taking any odd flying job i could get.
i feel privelaged to be here and loved the journey as much as the destination.
it always seems to be the airline bunch that complain so much.[/quote]

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by mshunter

It's this attitude that got us in this situation in the first place. If I could do it, I'd turn the tables on employers. But It would take a collective act to do it. People like you are not helping the cause! Working for pennies has made this industry turn into basically this----Aviation employers=Pimps, Pilots=#####s. I refuse to be a #####. My mentor is a chief pilot, and if a guy comes in and dosen't try to negoatite pay, he won't get the job. Even if it is someone with higher quals than the next guy in line. It shows something called integrity. Try some on for size!

One could argue equally that YOUR viewpoint lacks substance and experience and is predicated on nostalgia and rhetoric. The position should fill quickly ya think given the fact many SICs for regionals can transition over to this position and INCREASE their pay substantially. You going to say they are part of the problem as well for wishing a pay increase?

Someone's going to take this job as either a pay cut or a pay increase. That's a fact. It's not disrespectful to anyone; it's simply an end to a means and again, it's a fact of life. To editorialize negatively about it is simply a good indicator of a social/economically naive individual.

My take. . .

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by wrxpilot

If I lose my flying job, I'm going to look for another one that is in line with appropriate pay standards for that position. I'll also look at using my backup degree to get a job outside aviation if necessary. I'm not going to cave in to somebody taking advantage of the crappy hiring environment though.

I don't believe you'll be as successful as you would like to be. A specialty skill such as aviation is one of a few jobs where experience matters. I'm curious just how many pilots ever thought about "the real world" and what it takes to attain a high paying job?

Any ever thought to try out the job market outside of aviation to see what they are really worth to anyone other than the "legends in their own minds?" I mean really. . .run a hypothetical whereby you lose your physical or you're incapacitated. . .what's your plan B?

[Zero1Niner]

Originally Posted by riccochet

err, quoting on my own post. didnt finish previous post.
when i said the airline bunch complained the most, i meant because of furloughs. until recently the airlines were the typical furlough'ers now its freight too.......
ote=riccochet;1088494]people who got into the aviation business for the right reasons, those being alot of heart & the pure love of flying, people only capable of tolerating making a living doing something they love, will make it here. those who joined up for the status and moolah probably wont, unless they are the select few who walk on everyone & seem to just have everything fall in their laps.
not everything is about money. but, something that is worth anything requires sacrifice, perseverance & determination.
aviation is a very fickle industry with lotsa ups n downs & relies so much on economy.
aviation is a rich mans game but the poor can succeed in it.
my family was dirt poor, i never went to college & my only career backup comes from 10 years of FBO experience.
i struggled to make my way to the alaskan bush by delivering pizza, working fbos and taking any odd flying job i could get.
i feel privelaged to be here and loved the journey as much as the destination.
it always seems to be the airline bunch that complain so much.

[/quote]

Great attitude.

[Zero1Niner]

Originally Posted by MFT1Air

To editorialize negatively about it is simply a good indicator of a social/economically naive individual.

My take. . .

Word.

[riccochet]

1st of all i mean no offense & appreiate anyone who has heart desire and a willingness to work hard for what they want.
part of the reason we're experiencing this [low pay] in the 1st place is because big headed airline pilot wanna be's with 500 hours get a job as an FO with an airline desperately seeking someone to fill the right seat. that airline puts alot of time and money into that pilots training only to see that impatient inexperienced undeserving pilot leave early on before the investment put into them is met & that is perpetual.
2nd, aviation is incredibly expensive in all facets. The FAA continuously puts higher demands on 121 & 135 ops costing 100's of thousands of $'s. Recurrent training, maintenance, AD's, reurring AD's, fuel, oil and on and on and on! Just starting a 135 op with one small plane is 10's of thousands of $'s in just paperwork and fees to the FAA.
So, companies pass these high expenses onto customers and low pay to pilots and employees (especially high turnover)! Its a viscious circle!
It has nothing to do with pilots flying for pennies! Such friggin BS! There are companies out there that pay good, i work for one. & i've worked for others who payed good but couldnt meet their overhead and went bankrupt!
Most pilots arent payed enuff for what they do. but, i love what i do and feel privelaged to get payed for it therefor i am willing to sacrafice for having that privelage of doing what i dreamed of as a kid!
you wanna make $150 grand flying? go to the middle east and do it tax free with hazard pay! Dodging missiles and beheadings! a friend of mine just got on flying a 727 over there, theyre hiring!
i made my way the only way i knew how without any help or financial aid and i'm not gonna be bashed for my years of hard work & never giving up or wining, getting where i finally got.

Originally Posted by MFT1Air

One could argue equally that YOUR viewpoint lacks substance and experience and is predicated on nostalgia and rhetoric. The position should fill quickly ya think given the fact many SICs for regionals can transition over to this position and INCREASE their pay substantially. You going to say they are part of the problem as well for wishing a pay increase?

Someone's going to take this job as either a pay cut or a pay increase. That's a fact. It's not disrespectful to anyone; it's simply an end to a means and again, it's a fact of life. To editorialize negatively about it is simply a good indicator of a social/economically naive individual.

My take. . .

[riccochet]

doubt if it is SIC, not in a TBM. it is the fastest single t-prop in the world though. nice nice nice plane though. i dont think 30 k is too weak for that job if it has bennies.

Originally Posted by JDE

Yeah, I'm wondering if they meant SIC...who knows. $30K is weak for a PIC position.

[Cessna414JJB]

There used to be a time when one made it to the FE seat, or maybe even the FO seat after having spent years and years at low wages, flying everything from banners to agricultural airplanes, charter, freight or else. I remember clearly my uncle telling me one day that he had some 3000 hours before an airline would even talk to him.

There used to be a time when flying a tailwheel airplane was not considered dangerous, when a twin engine airplane was considered a airplane with two engines and not a gold mine for insurance companies.
It never took special skills to fly a tailwheel airplane or a multi, it still does not. They are just airplanes.

I believe the industry is not really to blame for what has happened.
My thought is that at some point in time, someone realized that GA did not provide the right attitudes for the cockpit anymore, how much easier would it be to sponsor a academy to produce pilots geared for the airlines? For decades people spent years in GA before moving on...

The problem seems to be that the production of low time academy pilots was geared towards removing all fair negotiation from the hiring process. Organizations like ATP had the CFI program, some of their guys and gals went on to instruct a whole month before being planted in a jet.
Then the airlines got desperate enough to accept "circumnavigating" the CFI thingy too, the result was a 250-300 hour pilot pool being available.
They are in debt, and the airlines go and train them. Contributing to this thing is the fact that a CRJ is in fact a highly automated box. Truly, the guy in the right seat is there because the regulations say that the seat must be occupied. "We give you a shot at this, just do as you are told and you'll be fine. How about 20K to start?" You won't hear anything than YES from anyone with that amount of debt at that age.

Nowadays the money people pay obviously entitles them to something. This is clearly shown through the "preferred hiring and bridge programs, which supposedly create better airline skills" It's a club setting. Someone drops the money, and all is taken care off. Someone else does not, would be the better stick, have a better personality for this job, and would not take everything for granted, but never has a realistic shot.
Instant gratification anyone? Do Doctors start at 300K/ year? Do Lawyers make 500K/Year in their first year? No, it takes time, dedication, skill, knowledge, reputation and lots of motivation. Heck it takes me motivation everyday not to cut up 20 years in Aviation and all my expensive certs, when everything looks dark. But "Learning years are not bossing years". There will be furloughs, setbacks and periods of unemployment. There are rewards, but we have to stick to it to even see them. I try to stick to it.

Is it ATP's fault? No! They did nothing but to capitalize on peoples dreams. There you have a customer who is ready to "drop the dime at hello" for this dreamjob. No research, no questions, just a dream of being a well paid Airline Captain someday. Scully Hero helps this a lot. Even though he never worked for the peanuts his peers work for today.

Newcomers, 80.000 dollars later, with the worldwide economy in the gutter, whine and moan about all the nice money that was wasted. "Oh this bad industry cheated me out of my money..."

All the madness and anger, whining and complaining goes only so far in my book. What gives people the right to proclaim that the system needs to change? The system CANNOT change before the people and attitudes in it change.

If ATP advertised the reality, that in fact it takes years to make a respectable wage, and a decent schedule and that there is more to being an airline pilot than chewing gum and listening to an ipod, would they continue to crank out as many cookies as they do? They portray a dream, but no one doing it tells the kiddos signing up today about the reality.

Experience, dedication and integrity must be valued higher as they are right now. That takes people. The effort must come from within, with a new approach to our own profession. It is ours afterall.

So, when I look at a TBM700 PIC job that pays 30K and possibly some benefits, I don't really see the big deal. Someone will take the seat, no matter what I think, or you, or anyone else. The seat would not go empty if they paid nothing at all. It's a nice plane and if you accidentally start working for nice people, the airlines look a whole lot darker than sitting in this thing.

Good Luck!

[riccochet]

C-414JJB, WOW!!!! that thread should be required reading for every new student pilot & any pilot expecting to circumnavigate "paying their dues". Unbelievably well said!!! Bravo, Bravo!!!

Originally Posted by Cessna414JJB

There used to be a time when one made it to the FE seat, or maybe even the FO seat after having spent years and years at low wages, flying everything from banners to agricultural airplanes, charter, freight or else. I remember clearly my uncle telling me one day that he had some 3000 hours before an airline would even talk to him.

There used to be a time when flying a tailwheel airplane was not considered dangerous, when a twin engine airplane was considered a airplane with two engines and not a gold mine for insurance companies.
It never took special skills to fly a tailwheel airplane or a multi, it still does not. They are just airplanes.

I believe the industry is not really to blame for what has happened.
My thought is that at some point in time, someone realized that GA did not provide the right attitudes for the cockpit anymore, how much easier would it be to sponsor a academy to produce pilots geared for the airlines? For decades people spent years in GA before moving on...

The problem seems to be that the production of low time academy pilots was geared towards removing all fair negotiation from the hiring process. Organizations like ATP had the CFI program, some of their guys and gals went on to instruct a whole month before being planted in a jet.
Then the airlines got desperate enough to accept "circumnavigating" the CFI thingy too, the result was a 250-300 hour pilot pool being available.
They are in debt, and the airlines go and train them. Contributing to this thing is the fact that a CRJ is in fact a highly automated box. Truly, the guy in the right seat is there because the regulations say that the seat must be occupied. "We give you a shot at this, just do as you are told and you'll be fine. How about 20K to start?" You won't hear anything than YES from anyone with that amount of debt at that age.

Nowadays the money people pay obviously entitles them to something. This is clearly shown through the "preferred hiring and bridge programs, which supposedly create better airline skills" It's a club setting. Someone drops the money, and all is taken care off. Someone else does not, would be the better stick, have a better personality for this job, and would not take everything for granted, but never has a realistic shot.
Instant gratification anyone? Do Doctors start at 300K/ year? Do Lawyers make 500K/Year in their first year? No, it takes time, dedication, skill, knowledge, reputation and lots of motivation. Heck it takes me motivation everyday not to cut up 20 years in Aviation and all my expensive certs, when everything looks dark. But "Learning years are not bossing years". There will be furloughs, setbacks and periods of unemployment. There are rewards, but we have to stick to it to even see them. I try to stick to it.

Is it ATP's fault? No! They did nothing but to capitalize on peoples dreams. There you have a customer who is ready to "drop the dime at hello" for this dreamjob. No research, no questions, just a dream of being a well paid Airline Captain someday. Scully Hero helps this a lot. Even though he never worked for the peanuts his peers work for today.

Newcomers, 80.000 dollars later, with the worldwide economy in the gutter, whine and moan about all the nice money that was wasted. "Oh this bad industry cheated me out of my money..."

All the madness and anger, whining and complaining goes only so far in my book. What gives people the right to proclaim that the system needs to change? The system CANNOT change before the people and attitudes in it change.

If ATP advertised the reality, that in fact it takes years to make a respectable wage, and a decent schedule and that there is more to being an airline pilot than chewing gum and listening to an ipod, would they continue to crank out as many cookies as they do? They portray a dream, but no one doing it tells the kiddos signing up today about the reality.

Experience, dedication and integrity must be valued higher as they are right now. That takes people. The effort must come from within, with a new approach to our own profession. It is ours afterall.

So, when I look at a TBM700 PIC job that pays 30K and possibly some benefits, I don't really see the big deal. Someone will take the seat, no matter what I think, or you, or anyone else. The seat would not go empty if they paid nothing at all. It's a nice plane and if you accidentally start working for nice people, the airlines look a whole lot darker than sitting in this thing.

Good Luck!

[HVYMETALDRVR]

No one here is saying we should all automatically be entitled to 100K or 75K a year initially, we all have to work our way up... But 19-20K?, living in a bad neighborhood?, barely able to afford car insurance? groceries? gas?, and these are just the essentials, nevermind fun or vacation... and I'm single...

It doesn't matter how automated the airplane is (assuming your flying something with a jet) pilots still bear a great deal of responsibility. They have the lives of xxx number of people behind them, plus whether university educated or not they didn't get to where their at by taking a two week orientation course (which is basically what bartenders can take and can easily double a first year FO pay).

On top of that all that money you invested goes into your tickets which are solely based on the validity of a medical certificate, which can dissappear MUCH quicker than most people think (Any one over 50 plus can vouch for how hard it is to keep a first class). Any kind of slip and fall concussion? the medical is now in jeopardy... nevermind a car accident or fall down drunk outside of the bar. Also, Take three people who get drunk at the bar one night (1 pilot 1 lawyer 1 doctor) all three get a DUI guess who's job is in jeopardy the next day? Given this is a personal choice but the point is a pilot is always a pilot, even when he's not flying.

Once again we are professionals and I feel that pilots should be treated and paid as such. Plus why not do what you love and get paid well at the same time? You guys are right that money isn't everything, but neither is poverty!

[Cessna414JJB]

Originally Posted by HVYMETALDRVR

No one here is saying we should all automatically be entitled to 100K or 75K a year initially, we all have to work our way up... But 19-20K?, living in a bad neighborhood?, barely able to afford car insurance? groceries? gas?, and these are just the essentials, nevermind fun or vacation... and I'm single...

Heavy debt is the worst partner one can have when negotiating pay.
Selling the dream @ double it's value is just one way of accomplishing that.
There are so many poor people around willing to do the job for almost nothing, why should they even consider me?

It doesn't matter how automated the airplane is (assuming your flying something with a jet) pilots still bear a great deal of responsibility. They have the lives of xxx number of people behind them, plus whether university educated or not they didn't get to where their at by taking a two week orientation course (which is basically what bartenders can take and can easily double a first year FO pay).

No they didn't take a 2 week orientation course. They took a 12 week orientation course during which they ran around like airline captains.
All their flying had a single purpose, and because at 250 hours after 3 months they can barely hold their own as Instructors or Pilots (with exceptions) they now expect to be put into a TBM700 or CRJ making good money. Are you kidding? Why do people not become bartenders? Whats so wrong with making 70K/ year mixing drinks? It only takes 2 weeks of orientation. However, lousy and arrogant bartenders make no 70K, not 30K for that matter.

On top of that all that money you invested goes into your tickets which are solely based on the validity of a medical certificate, which can dissappear MUCH quicker than most people think (Any one over 50 plus can vouch for how hard it is to keep a first class). Any kind of slip and fall concussion? the medical is now in jeopardy... nevermind a car accident or fall down drunk outside of the bar. Also, Take three people who get drunk at the bar one night (1 pilot 1 lawyer 1 doctor) all three get a DUI guess who's job is in jeopardy the next day? Given this is a personal choice but the point is a pilot is always a pilot, even when he's not flying.

The solution to that problem is again attitude. I don't know many 300 pound pilots with a drinking problem. People know that if they become a pilot (unless they fly sport) they will have to apply slightly different rules to their lifestyle. I once got terribly drunk with a dentist. After 4 hours he could barely walk. He had paid for everything being drunk on that table that night, well in excess of $400. While I was out doing my job the next day he told me that he lost far more than the $400. You cannot throw up in a patients face. He had to cancel all and any appointments for that next day. Again, if you become a bartender, the people you serve may not notice the stink of old alcohol, they may come with their own. The bartenders I see nowadays wear a tie and polished shoes. Good ones never chew gum, never run around sharing their popular choice of music blaring out of their ears. The last time I flew airline, two very young people disappeared in the cockpit. I overhear a woman say: "are these kids our pilots?" A uniform does not make someone a professional. Neither do big watches, expensive sunglasses or golden wings.

Once again we are professionals and I feel that pilots should be treated and paid as such. Plus why not do what you love and get paid well at the same time? You guys are right that money isn't everything, but neither is poverty!

Demanding change comes with a pricetag. Nobody is willing to pay that price. Nothing will change by selfdeclared professionalism. A good friend of mine is a cop. He makes 35K/year for pulling drunk people off the highway, or getting a average size 14 housewife off her cell before giving her a speeding ticket. He runs the risk of being taken out everyday. Yet, he pays for his own bulletproof west. Everything has a price, but nothing has a value anymore. As long as the airlines have to give this much needed skill and ability to people, and have to teach them how to be a professional, asking for more money is almost grotesqe. In the meantime, keep looking around yourself and experience first hand that your "peers" are willing to stab you in the back at anytime if it brings them an inch closer to their goal. If they can gain, you will loose. Get real, or get a life.

Cheers,

[wrxpilot]

Originally Posted by MFT1Air

I don't believe you'll be as successful as you would like to be. A specialty skill such as aviation is one of a few jobs where experience matters. I'm curious just how many pilots ever thought about "the real world" and what it takes to attain a high paying job?

Any ever thought to try out the job market outside of aviation to see what they are really worth to anyone other than the "legends in their own minds?" I mean really. . .run a hypothetical whereby you lose your physical or you're incapacitated. . .what's your plan B?

Not sure what your point is. I have a degree outside of aviation (engineering), and about a half dozen years of work experience in that field. That's my plan B, and I consider having a solid backup to be of utmost importance in today's world. I've had several pilot jobs, and all paid fair market value for what I did.

You sure are opinionated for somebody that's never flown for hire... I've worked both sides of the street, so at least I've been there and done it. How about you?

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by Cessna414JJB

The problem seems to be that the production of low time academy pilots was geared towards removing all fair negotiation from the hiring process. Organizations like ATP had the CFI program, some of their guys and gals went on to instruct a whole month before being planted in a jet.
Then the airlines got desperate enough to accept "circumnavigating" the CFI thingy too, the result was a 250-300 hour pilot pool being available.

I disagree I remember at my college pre-9/11 we had some guest speakers come in from the major hiring departments. They talked about all the applications they had on hand. It was something like 10,000 per company (Delta, United, CAL, etc.). Yet their pay continued to go up (obviously until the bankruptcy courts took it). So applications had nothing to do with pay.

IMO what causes the low pay at the regionals is a lack of leverage. Comair struck for almost 3 months to get a killer (at the time) contract for a regional. Air Wisconsin signed their new contract, based in part off of Comair's, on 9/11/01. Since then we have seen a different attitude in the fee-for-departure companies in that cost is the number one line item on the RFP. When you don't win an RFP you die. Look at ACA. The others have managed to stay alive (for now) but the Mesas, Pinnacles, Colgans, out ther will continue to grow while the other companies with higher costs that don't "pay to play" such as Comair, Expressjet, pretty much any wholly owned, will continue to suffer.

ALPA is addressing this somehow, I'm not quite sure how, but IMO until we can get a unified contract between all the ALPA carriers to include the same pay rates, rigs, work rules etc. the pay will continue to be pressed downward, until they are hiring such unqualified people that accidents begin to occur on a regular basis.

Also what is hurting is the fact that airlines just don't make money. It would be a lot easier to negotiate pay raises if companies actually made a profit.

[Cessna414JJB]

Originally Posted by wrxpilot

You sure are opinionated for somebody that's never flown for hire... I've worked both sides of the street, so at least I've been there and done it. How about you?

Wrxpilot,

I have never flown for hire either and am frequently called opinionated.

The simple fact today is that in order to work in this field there are only 2 solutions for someone starting out:

• Accept the pay- otherwise you will not fly, just like me right now.
• Find someone who sees the individual behind the resume and logbook. This person will help get into the necessary form and shape, will foster good valuable experience and give one the chance to prove oneself. Ain't happening.

I would kindly ask you to head over to the jobs needed section and read my request for information on Banner Towing, Sightseeing and other entry level jobs. Remember, my ultimate goal is to be a Flight Instructor. I have no desire to fly a CRJ for Mesa. I never attended academy style training, never completed a bridge program and likely never will.
My resume went to some 50+ operators offering these entry level jobs.
The only responses are from Pacific Wings (generic) and one operator who pays next to nothing for flying a uninsured 182 with meatbombs in it. I have flown a bunch of complex and a bunch of stuff with 172XPII's but not a 182. My chances are slim, but if I want to fly, I will probably end up taking the plunge. Well, maybe not, after writing this...

Then, please look at the response I got there.

Originally Posted by wheelsup

I disagree...

ALPA is addressing this somehow, I'm not quite sure how, but IMO until we can get a unified contract between all the ALPA carriers to include the same pay rates, rigs, work rules etc. the pay will continue to be pressed downward, until they are hiring such unqualified people that accidents begin to occur on a regular basis.

Also what is hurting is the fact that airlines just don't make money. It would be a lot easier to negotiate pay raises if companies actually made a profit.

I doubt highly that unions are the ultimate answer to the problems of airline pilots. What good does a union in bed with management? What good does it to sacrifice part of your pay for representation towards the big cahuna's, making uninformed decisions if your next FO is desperate enough to fly for free and enter the company without joining the union?
The airlines make no money because there is less benefit in making money than there is in loosing it. At the same time John Doe enjoys flying from Boston to Orlando for $49. Realistically, for the airline to turn a profit John would have to pay some $500 and it would take a whole bunch of Joe's to make the flight truly profitable. But then the airline would have to pay taxes... oh no!

I would love to see how many airliners would be airborne today if a basic requirement for the flight would be to turn a profit. Three? Maybe 4?
With lots of "out of aviation" experience I have declined a lot of business because it did not produce profit.

I'm ready to learn here, so shoot away without bashing.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by Cessna414JJB

I doubt highly that unions are the ultimate answer to the problems of airline pilots. What good does a union in bed with management? What good does it to sacrifice part of your pay for representation towards the big cahuna's, making uninformed decisions if your next FO is desperate enough to fly for free and enter the company without joining the union?

Well it doesn't really work like that. I haven't met anyone yet who hasn't elected their dues to go toward the union, not saying it doesn't happen it's such a rarity that it wouldn't have an impact. In addition even if you don't have your dues go toward the union, you still get paid the same regardless. So there is never anyone flying for free.

Most of the time the union isn't about paying for representation per se but more (IMO) about a safety net. We had an incident here where the crew couldn't get one of the gear down, they ran thru the checklist 3 times. Finally landed and did very little damage, aircraft was back up a week or two later.

The company wanted to fire the CA even though the NTSB showed that it was an A&P who screwed the pooch and put the gear assembly back together wrong.

Imagine if you were that CA. You'd have to hire a lawyer, for God knows how much, to defend you.

The airlines make no money because there is less benefit in making money than there is in loosing it. ...But then the airline would have to pay taxes... oh no!

So you think the airlines want to lose money rather than pay a portion of their profits out?

I would disagree, airlines absolutely love making a profit. Otherwise they'd *never* do it. Pre-9/11 United was making $1 billion a year.

I would love to see how many airliners would be airborne today if a basic requirement for the flight would be to turn a profit. Three? Maybe 4?

I think it's coming to that. They continue to cut back, and will for the forseeable future.

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by wrxpilot

Not sure what your point is. I have a degree outside of aviation (engineering), and about a half dozen years of work experience in that field. That's my plan B, and I consider having a solid backup to be of utmost importance in today's world. I've had several pilot jobs, and all paid fair market value for what I did.

You sure are opinionated for somebody that's never flown for hire... I've worked both sides of the street, so at least I've been there and done it. How about you?

As you know, your plan B is on equal footing with your aviation career. If you're ABET and a PE, many, including myself would say it's even more elevated and more profitable than the aviation career.

I have the same conversation with my engineer wife and my aviator/engineer co-workers all with significant fly for hire experience. The general conclusion is the market drives your pay. It's business' it's supply and demand.

Where I take issue is towards anyone who 'nay says' a dollar amount paid to a flying position and subsequently accuses a pilot of showing a disservice to the "industry" by accepting a perceived lowballed salary. That's ludicrious. You mentioned

I've had several pilot jobs, and all paid fair market value for what I did.

What the heck is fair market value? Who's market? Where is the market? The term especially in the aviation industry is so subjective; the range is so wide, it invites argument,discussion, and varying opinions all of which I value and appreciate. When you start placing "right" and "wrong" into accepting or declining a paid position, that's viewpoint for me is unacceptable. You don't have to take a job/position you don't want for whatever reason. So many intangibles go into salaries and flight positions which everyone should already know cannot be effectively gauged.

I work at NASA here in Johnson Space Center. Engineers abound. As if I care about fly for hire positions, I use your analogy to look at the variances in engineer salaries with civil servants and the contractors. The range is from 45k up to 180k. You're going to "TELL" someone not to apply or take a position with a company if they offered 45k when another company starts at 55k? 50k? Is money the only intangible you're going to consider? If there weren't 45k positions available and they had positions that started at 39k. . .what you gonna tell someone unemployed and eating spam and ramen. . .don't take the position. The pay is not fair? Ludicrious.

[wrxpilot]

Originally Posted by Cessna414JJB

Wrxpilot,

I have never flown for hire either and am frequently called opinionated.

The simple fact today is that in order to work in this field there are only 2 solutions for someone starting out:

• Accept the pay- otherwise you will not fly, just like me right now.
• Find someone who sees the individual behind the resume and logbook. This person will help get into the necessary form and shape, will foster good valuable experience and give one the chance to prove oneself. Ain't happening.

I would kindly ask you to head over to the jobs needed section and read my request for information on Banner Towing, Sightseeing and other entry level jobs.

I hate to break it to you, but you're going to have to do more than post a "jobs wanted" ad on a pilot forum to get ahead in aviation. You need to move where the work is and network. That's how it's done, and when I first researched this career that's what I found. I applied it, and what do you know - it works! I've never had a job handed to me via an online request, and I don't think I know anyone that has. There may be some that can offer methods and locations to find jobs, which is certainly valuable.

Also, if you don't have you CFI you are going to have a VERY difficult time getting on with this career. Even a couple of years ago when things were booming, it was pretty difficult to get hired as an entry level pilot in a non-CFI position. The ones that did seemed to know somebody.

Some free advice... Shop around and see which flight schools are busy. Trust me, there are still some that are staying busy. Get your CFI (or another rating if you have your CFI) at the school, act professional, schmooze the boss, and get yourself on the schedule afterwards. Good luck.

[wrxpilot]

Originally Posted by MFT1Air

As you know, your plan B is on equal footing with your aviation career. If you're ABET and a PE, many, including myself would say it's even more elevated and more profitable than the aviation career.

Don't have a PE, but I did graduate from an ABET school (Colorado School of Mines) and passed the FE (it was the EIT at the time). Believe it or not, I actually got out of engineering and went into aviation because I like aviation. Pretty obvious that there's less earning potential in aviation, particularly when comparing the first few years. But who, other than yourself, even brought that up? It's my backup career, period.

Fair market value is subjective, but you can get a pretty good idea of what is fair by comparing your position to others currently working in a similar position. That's why professional pilots (in other words, not you) use resources like NBAA, Stanton, or even a survey of pros at places like Propilotworld.

I'd still like to hear you clarify your earlier comment about pilots not understanding the "real world". You've never even worked a day in your life as a professional pilot, yet you have the gall to sit there and say it's not worth looking down on an aviation employer for low wages, as somebody else will just step in anyway. Talk about not understanding the real world... At least I've sat in the cube and ran FEA problems, worked action items, wrote proposals, and made cost estimates. I've even interviewed engineers for positions within my old company. You've done nothing like that when it comes to aviation (like I have), yet you feel you are expert enough to come on here and lecture us about what wages we can expect to receive. Some freaking nerve.

When I was offered a captain position with my last employer, they tried to lowball me on the pay increase. I said they have to make a better offer or else I'm not doing it. Guess what? They did. It was a risk, and they could've easily ran an ad and had another guy step in and take my place. If more people would stand up for themselves AND also not take crap offers, we'd be in a much better spot.

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by wrxpilot

You've never even worked a day in your life as a professional pilot

You're right. Never worked as a CEO of any Fortune 500 company either, but I think I'm familiar with business MANAGEMENT which is the point of my posts.

Originally Posted by wrxpilot

yet you have the gall to sit there and say it's not worth looking down on an aviation employer for low wages, as somebody else will just step in anyway.

Nope, you're wrong. You misspoke. The term "low wages" is a relative term. Economics 101 - supply and demand is what I used to rationalize, justify and understand the business practices used to allocate and assign salary resources for employees. The MBA degree I'm working on and my salary planning experience in the real world determine what I will pay an employee for services rendered. Since when is a company going to ever OVERPAY employees?

Originally Posted by wrxpilot

Talk about not understanding the real world... At least I've sat in the cube and ran FEA problems, worked action items, wrote proposals, and made cost estimates. I've even interviewed engineers for positions within my old company. You've done nothing like that when it comes to aviation (like I have), yet you feel you are expert enough to come on here and lecture us about what wages we can expect to receive. Some freaking nerve.

In aviation? Wow, you're right again. I've not done as you've verbalized. However, you went thin-skinned again with your implication about what you perceived I said with regard to wages. Please . . . as I explain on occasion to my kids and the aviator astronauts I train - "reading [or reading comprehension] is fundamental." I say NOT to lecture anyone on how what you perceive as low wages being accepted by pilots as being a disservice to the industry. How dare anyone be so pompous as to say a specific salary being offered is beneath them? Lose your job and be out of work for six or seven months. . .you going to have that same thought process? Heck, many here might be so overly arrogant, they'll stay at home and watch judge shows or Oprah than get back into flying making less than they had previously. That's their call. . .not mine.

Originally Posted by wrxpilot

When I was offered a captain position with my last employer, they tried to lowball me on the pay increase. I said they have to make a better offer or else I'm not doing it. Guess what? They did. It was a risk, and they could've easily ran an ad and had another guy step in and take my place. If more people would stand up for themselves AND also not take crap offers, we'd be in a much better spot.

Fooled you; Anyone in HR who performs hiring practices know we have a low/medium/high salary range for various positions. Why do you think companies ask for previous salary information. And yes, BUSINESSES do low ball the initial offer. Sound familiar? Was it a risk for you to ask for more money? Probably not. . .they probably still went under their salary range for that position. If not, they would have drawn a line in the sand and waited on you.

. . .and I betcha that employer probably NEVER flew a professional pilot day in his life! He probably did take a business math course though.

[Cessna414JJB]

Originally Posted by wrxpilot

Fair market value is subjective, but you can get a pretty good idea of what is fair by comparing your position to others currently working in a similar position. That's why professional pilots (in other words, not you) use resources like NBAA, Stanton, or even a survey of pros at places like Propilotworld.

I'd still like to hear you clarify your earlier comment about pilots not understanding the "real world". You've never even worked a day in your life as a professional pilot, yet you have the gall to sit there and say it's not worth looking down on an aviation employer for low wages, as somebody else will just step in anyway. Talk about not understanding the real world...

When I was offered a captain position with my last employer, they tried to lowball me on the pay increase. I said they have to make a better offer or else I'm not doing it. Guess what? They did. It was a risk, and they could've easily ran an ad and had another guy step in and take my place. If more people would stand up for themselves AND also not take crap offers, we'd be in a much better spot.

The tone makes the music, not the musician.
I can appreciate almost all you say - I see the credibility in your statements, I can read the experience. Yet - something about your style of communication and your judgmental approach to other peoples motives and integrity gives me - the shivers.

There are plenty of very professional pilots who can see and negotiate the viewpoints of those who have not walked a mile in their shoes. I wish you where one of them. However much you would like to believe it, not everyone starting out with this career is a complete and utter idiot.
You may find yourself in a position to negotiate your pay. Someone appreciates what you do, and puts a value on it. Many others work because they have to, however stupid it may be not to have something to fall back on (I have made plenty of statements about that).
Again, this TBM seat is filled by someone happy about the upgrade from lousy schedule to a single pilot setting, with a likely well maintained airplane. We will never find out who took the job, but rest assured, someone did. While we stay busy tearing into each other like Alaskan Grizzly's, trying to rip one another for trying, someone silently walked into this office, looked at the plane, and said: "Sure, I can do this".

I hate to break it to you, but you're going to have to do more than post a "jobs wanted" ad on a pilot forum to get ahead in aviation. You need to move where the work is and network. That's how it's done...

I'm glad you broke it to me. Now I know. I will keep myself posted on my progress. Because apparently networking and sharing wisdom can only happen out in the field. JC seems to be the place to vent about it.
I know there are some hardcores who will fiercly attack anyone looking for more than the usual forum blah blah, in fact, I knew that before I ever found out about JC. Another fact is that if people followed the free advise given on any forum to the letter the rate/ number of suicides would explode. There may be some people who never have to take a paycut, or a step back, but they are not the norm. I have this credo, I live by:

Everytime I take a step back it is to gain distance and speed for the coming jump. There is no free lunch in aviation and if anything it is time to show people that 300 hour FO's are a thing of the past. Lots of shaddered dreams, I know, but, hey, nobody said life's easy. There is no published standard for what is considered fair compensation, not for the training involved, not for the skills required - none of it. From a business management standpoint I know one thing: The current and most likely continuing abundance of high debt pilots, sold on a pipedream will keep wages low. That is if they decide to take the "down river approach to this career". Then there will always be some who will bring more to the table than a resume, a instructor certificate or other incredible skills and they will get a shot at this job. It will take dedication to get there, but dedication is something I was never short on. $8.600 for a CFI, just to be another brick in the wall - naw. There must be a way to figure out how to get into this without extending the budget.

Cheers,

[wrxpilot]

Originally Posted by MFT1Air

You're right. Never worked as a CEO of any Fortune 500 company either, but I think I'm familiar with business MANAGEMENT which is the point of my posts.



Nope, you're wrong. You misspoke. The term "low wages" is a relative term. Economics 101 - supply and demand is what I used to rationalize, justify and understand the business practices used to allocate and assign salary resources for employees. The MBA degree I'm working on and my salary planning experience in the real world determine what I will pay an employee for services rendered. Since when is a company going to ever OVERPAY employees?

Who said anything about over paying? Again, you are off on some weird tangent. Getting a fair salary is all about negotiating. Part of that negotiating is using sources such as I listed earlier. Certainly, there's some wiggle room there and it's worth going for the high end of what's available. If an employer likes what they see, they may even go a little higher than anticipated to keep or acquire top talent.

Perhaps you have a nice perspective from a management position in your government job, but it is a NON-AVIATION position and it is just one sided. The best managers I had in engineering were formerly (or still practicing) engineers. It gives them a good perspective on their employees value and needs. The absolute worst managers I've had (or heard about) were never engineers. Guys with a business degree in charge of engineers - what a disaster. The same goes for aviation... Back in the day, airline management rose up from the pilot ranks and were well respected and made the airline money. These days? What a joke...

Having never flown for hire in your life, you are out of touch when it comes to hiring pilots. There's a reason the number one pilot networking website on the internet requires a commercial pilot certificate to join.

[wrxpilot]

Originally Posted by Cessna414JJB

There are plenty of very professional pilots who can see and negotiate the viewpoints of those who have not walked a mile in their shoes. I wish you where one of them. However much you would like to believe it, not everyone starting out with this career is a complete and utter idiot.
You may find yourself in a position to negotiate your pay. Someone appreciates what you do, and puts a value on it. Many others work because they have to, however stupid it may be not to have something to fall back on (I have made plenty of statements about that).
Again, this TBM seat is filled by someone happy about the upgrade from lousy schedule to a single pilot setting, with a likely well maintained airplane.

You are putting words in my mouth. I never said anybody starting out is a "complete and utter idiot". What I actually said is that it's extremely hard to get a pilot job when you're starting out without having flown as a CFI first. Big difference there, and I think most professional pilots would agree.

With my current job, I was unable to negotiate a higher pay rate when I started. I was a little disappointed, but I asked other professional pilots about the salary, and they said it was fair for the position. I was able to make a living with it, and it was a step up from what I was doing with possibilities of advancement. Can't say that I've regretted it yet.

I've never said that whoever takes that TBM job is going to ruin aviation and that I wish them to fail miserably. I said that the offered salary was terrible, and that I made more as a pilot in positions of much less responsibility. I actually wish everybody is this business the greatest success, as we all need it. It's tough, and you never know if the decisions you've made in your career are the correct ones until after you retire.

For whatever reason, I apparently give you the "shivers". If that's how you feel from a simple discussion on the internet, I highly recommend you get a thicker skin. This is profession is a lot of fun and you see amazing things, but you go through A LOT of BS that will eat you alive if you can't deal with it.

These websites are great for networking, which can lead to jobs. I got my current job via networking through a website. Networking and hoping somebody just offers you a job from a "pilot available" post are totally different. Good luck with your career, and I sincerely mean it. If I do see anything down here in south FL for a low time, non-CFI, I'll make sure to post it here so guys like you get a shot.

[mshunter]

Originally Posted by Cessna414JJB

I'm glad you broke it to me. Now I know. I will keep myself posted on my progress. Because apparently networking and sharing wisdom can only happen out in the field. JC seems to be the place to vent about it.

You seem to see it too? Many more vent here than help others. And the tones that come across, even when people are asking for help, are quite harsh. And I hate to say it, but I have been that way in the past on occasion as well. I guess now would be a good time to re-think my attitude. Hopefully I can manage to turn atleast one contact into something good.

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by wrxpilot

Who said anything about over paying? Again, you are off on some weird tangent. Getting a fair salary is all about negotiating. Part of that negotiating is using sources such as I listed earlier. Certainly, there's some wiggle room there and it's worth going for the high end of what's available. If an employer likes what they see, they may even go a little higher than anticipated to keep or acquire top talent.

Perhaps you have a nice perspective from a management position in your government job, but it is a NON-AVIATION position and it is just one sided. The best managers I had in engineering were formerly (or still practicing) engineers. It gives them a good perspective on their employees value and needs. The absolute worst managers I've had (or heard about) were never engineers. Guys with a business degree in charge of engineers - what a disaster. The same goes for aviation... Back in the day, airline management rose up from the pilot ranks and were well respected and made the airline money. These days? What a joke...

Having never flown for hire in your life, you are out of touch when it comes to hiring pilots. There's a reason the number one pilot networking website on the internet requires a commercial pilot certificate to join.

You're a BLUF guy. Bottom Line Up Front

• best managers I had in engineering were formerly (or still practicing) engineers. In your own world with your limited experience. For me, the best managers were those who had a sound business sense through business experiences or a business education or a combination of the two along with a solid foundation in their own technical specialty. . .i.e. - doctors, lawyers, engineers, aviators. Personally, I believe my list is longer than yours, but it's my opinion only.
• Who said anything about over paying? Again, you are off on some weird tangent. Sorry, perhaps you failed to understand divergence? I asked a question to you. You're quick to spout rhetoric about being underpaid. Is there a situation where, by industry standards, someone is going to be overpaid? You're quick to judge those businesses who offer salaries below market value, but salary and compensation can drive a business into bankruptcy. Is that okay? The answer is no. It's not sound business practice to shoot one's self in the foot by overpricing employees' perceived worth. A business is going to pay what they can afford. A potential employee is going to want to be paid what they feel they need, want, deserve, or entitled. . .be they janitorial workers, doctors, lawyers, engineers, or pilots. If you fail to see and fully understand that. . .my question and it is a question - are you an educated fool to not fully see and understand that basic of business practices?

Supply and demand. I'm not a professional pilot; I'm not furloughed. I'm not complaining of lack of professional opportunities available to me with my experiences and education. My job is not going overseas to improve my financial situation. Should I ever decide to become one, it'll be a significant pay cut, but it'll be what I NEED to do in order to achieve something greater long term.

Professional pilots. Do you see the adjective? Professional. . .because the adjective describes "pilots," do you think this automatically assumes quality pay? Learn a lesson from the many who tried to find jobs after WWII. Get out of the engineering books and get into the history and finance books to see how any occupation survives in the marketplace during market cycle changes. Then, quit downgrading your peers.

Lastly, show me one significant aviation entity out there who manages mulitiple aviation activities who "grew up" as a pilot? I'm curious. I'll then refer you to Herb Kelleher and Steve Fossett. Business savy and not aviation prowess grew their businesses. . .businesses.

Oh, shucks.

I've never said that whoever takes that TBM job is going to ruin aviation and that I wish them to fail miserably. I said that the offered salary was terrible, and that I made more as a pilot in positions of much less responsibility. I actually wish everybody is this business the greatest success, as we all need it. It's tough, and you never know if the decisions you've made in your career are the correct ones until after you retire.

We are in agreement here wholeheartedly. It's the overall business/pilot relationship we still need to hash out.

[Cessna414JJB]

Originally Posted by MFT1Air

You're a BLUF guy. Bottom Line Up Front

• best managers I had in engineering were formerly (or still practicing) engineers. In your own world with your limited experience. For me, the best managers were those who had a sound business sense through business experiences or a business education or a combination of the two along with a solid foundation in their own technical specialty. . .i.e. - doctors, lawyers, engineers, aviators. Personally, I believe my list is longer than yours, but it's my opinion only.
• Who said anything about over paying? Again, you are off on some weird tangent. Sorry, perhaps you failed to understand divergence? I asked a question to you. You're quick to spout rhetoric about being underpaid. Is there a situation where, by industry standards, someone is going to be overpaid? You're quick to judge those businesses who offer salaries below market value, but salary and compensation can drive a business into bankruptcy. Is that okay? The answer is no. It's not sound business practice to shoot one's self in the foot by overpricing employees' perceived worth. A business is going to pay what they can afford. A potential employee is going to want to be paid what they feel they need, want, deserve, or entitled. . .be they janitorial workers, doctors, lawyers, engineers, or pilots. If you fail to see and fully understand that. . .my question and it is a question - are you an educated fool to not fully see and understand that basic of business practices?

Supply and demand. I'm not a professional pilot; I'm not furloughed. I'm not complaining of lack of professional opportunities available to me with my experiences and education. My job is not going overseas to improve my financial situation. Should I ever decide to become one, it'll be a significant pay cut, but it'll be what I NEED to do in order to achieve something greater long term.

Professional pilots. Do you see the adjective? Professional. . .because the adjective describes "pilots," do you think this automatically assumes quality pay? Learn a lesson from the many who tried to find jobs after WWII. Get out of the engineering books and get into the history and finance books to see how any occupation survives in the marketplace during market cycle changes. Then, quit downgrading your peers.

Lastly, show me one significant aviation entity out there who manages mulitiple aviation activities who "grew up" as a pilot? I'm curious. I'll then refer you to Herb Kelleher and Steve Fossett. Business savy and not aviation prowess grew their businesses. . .businesses.

He is not really downgrading his peers, I had the same feeling, thats why I put words in his mouth. I can clearly see where he comes from now and after reading the below, I have no doubt that his motives are equal to mine. Help in bringing change through education and the very foundation this place was build upon. PAYING IT FORWARD.

You are putting words in my mouth. I never said anybody starting out is a "complete and utter idiot". What I actually said is that it's extremely hard to get a pilot job when you're starting out without having flown as a CFI first. Big difference there, and I think most professional pilots would agree.

With my current job, I was unable to negotiate a higher pay rate when I started. I was a little disappointed, but I asked other professional pilots about the salary, and they said it was fair for the position. I was able to make a living with it, and it was a step up from what I was doing with possibilities of advancement. Can't say that I've regretted it yet.

I've never said that whoever takes that TBM job is going to ruin aviation and that I wish them to fail miserably. I said that the offered salary was terrible, and that I made more as a pilot in positions of much less responsibility. I actually wish everybody is this business the greatest success, as we all need it. It's tough, and you never know if the decisions you've made in your career are the correct ones until after you retire.

For whatever reason, I apparently give you the "shivers". If that's how you feel from a simple discussion on the internet, I highly recommend you get a thicker skin. This is profession is a lot of fun and you see amazing things, but you go through A LOT of BS that will eat you alive if you can't deal with it.

These websites are great for networking, which can lead to jobs. I got my current job via networking through a website. Networking and hoping somebody just offers you a job from a "pilot available" post are totally different. Good luck with your career, and I sincerely mean it. If I do see anything down here in south FL for a low time, non-CFI, I'll make sure to post it here so guys like you get a shot.

Thank you wrxpilot, this was, if you kindly go back and look at some of my initial posts in this thread, my single desire. There are people thankful for seeing this "jobs available" and "jobs needed" forum. I believe we would (as professionals) do the spirit of this forum well by doing a few simple things:

• Appreciate the fact that people bother posting what they find here, even if it does not always/ necessary benefit them directly. Assume that they post here to give others a opportunity to see whats out there.
• Even if the pay is ridicoulous as per some standard, try not to single out specific users for considering this employment. Bashing a job without very specific knowledge is like posting teasers like "I would do my research on this company before applying". It serves no purpose. We are surrounded by naive and childish people, and they will continue to suffer for their actions. Let them do their homework. Let them make decisions based on their opinions and believes. You may be able to protect your 3 year old from burning the little hands on a stove, but we won't be able to protect upright walking adults all the time.
• Use and contribute to the "jobs needed" forum by giving tips and insights, but do not question each others integrity or motivation. When I got my response (heavy emphasis on networking and getting to know people, I am well capable of looking for my own jobs, but need a helping hand and insights, like everyone else) I was stunned to have someone recommend to turn from flying for a few years. In the end I ended up giving insights into my previous employment, but my post yielded not much else.

At this point I see only very few options for us (as in: me, you, someone else) to do much about the fall of this profession. There are endless masses of people willing to fly for free (as required crewmembers) or even pay for it. Before this issue is properly addressed by the rest of us, it is senseless to talk about bad paying jobs.

What we can do today is to apply basic courtesy and respect when dealing with each other, communicate just as if you where sitting across the person and be honest. All others may have a chance to learn, critique and contribute. I hate to sound emotional again but in this market and industry, all we have is our peers. Nobody else cares. We have enough experience and skill combined in this place to make a difference. Lets not make that difference through a $30.000 TBM job someone posted out of goodwill. Thats all I have.

Cheers,