Tbm 700 pic

[mshunter]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

Let me ask you this - do you even meet the minimums to apply for this job?

Before I even bother to answer your question, what does this have to do with anything being discussed here?

[slushie]

Didn't we already cover all of this with the posting to be a bike-riding parking enforcement agent at LAS?

[Cessna414JJB]

Originally Posted by mshunter

Before I even bother to answer your question, what does this have to do with anything being discussed here?

Sorry, just to verify... when did posting a job opportunity for others to look at become subject to discussion? Be grateful for people posting this stuff and stop questioning other peoples integrity and value. It really comes across terribly crooked.

[killbilly]

<politely waves a white flag in the air, tenuously raises head above the level of the trench to ask a question>

Given that it appears to be "entry level" in the grand scheme of things, would this not potentially be a job that leads to bigger and better things? Merely curious if that's how it works at this particular stage of the strange, mysterious and wonderful world of People Who Get Paid To Fly.

[P&H]

Disgraceful pay for that kind of position. To call it competitive is silly at best.

two cents worth..

[Cessna414JJB]

Originally Posted by P&H

Disgraceful pay for that kind of position. To call it competitive is silly at best.

two cents worth..

Maybe.
Whats really disgraceful is the spread between those looking for a job, asking here for information from findapilot.com (how much is it per month?) to then going on to discuss at lenght how disgraceful and what an insult it is.

I sure wish these posts could be locked, the discussions are utterly senseless and lack any sort of respect or appreciation. Probably no good for anything but funny entertainment of our moderators anyways.

[HVYMETALDRVR]

I won't say specifically if this job is a scam or not, I don't know enough about it. If its one of those deals like you fly the same person 4-5 times a weeks out to whatever airport sit around while he has a meeting for 3 hours then you fly back well then thats fine. Its basically a part time job and you can flight instruct/bartend/whatever around that time.

But if your constantly on call, being woken up and taken from your family at any possible time flying 80+ hours a month and expected to take full responsibility to make sure the airplane is fuel, cleaned, meets all inspections...etc. Then its definitely a scam.

Once again some pilots get pissed because they're to afraid/shy to ask for more (I used to be like that). The bottom line is its not unreasonable to be fairly and ADEQUATELY compensated for our time and skills, we are ALL professionals. Not carnys working a ferris wheel ride, or the drive-up at Wendy's. The bottom line is that if you let the world ##### on you, it will.

[HVYMETALDRVR]

Again it should be pointed out that this is a PIC position, not an SIC one.

[Zero1Niner]

Originally Posted by mshunter

This is unfortunatly true. And the main reason why we all eat dirt now. Because some people say "in this market." Who cares about the market, we should still expect a fair wage, EVEN IF THE ECONOMY IS IN A SLUMP. It took some of us 3-4 years and $40-$80k to get here. $30k a fair wage? Almost. Another $10k a year would make it fair. Here is a perfect example of what the industry has become: GoJet is hiring FO's to fly their CRJ700's. $23 an hour to be SIC of a $28 million jet with 70 peoples lives in your hands. Figure your first year on reserve, you won't fly more than 70 hrs. a month. And thats tha gaurentee. That works out to $19320 a yeaar. I made more money my 1st year fixing cars, and I didn't need any special certifications that required great health, good vision, and instructing someone who was constantly trying to kill me. Oh yeah, I also didn't have to sacrafice my kids college tuition, and spend 7 months to 3 years of my life to just be able to make a pay check doing it. And one more thing, I also ddidn't have to get a college degree to be competitive. I just walked right in and applied for the job. And If I had decided to become a service manager, I could have made well over $100k a year. I got into this career because I love to fly. But I still won't fly for penuts!

Wow. How can you possibly disregard the current market conditions??? It always seems that when I read post like this it really shows the lack of understanding of what it takes to own and operate a business. It makes absolutely NO difference how much money, effort, sacrifice or whatever it took to earn our credentials for a job. It was your/our choice. Nobody asked any of us to 'sacrifice our kids tuition' or spend $80K on training, etc. Nobody forced any of us to choose this career path, and to insist that its somehow justifiable to demand a 'fair' wage, even when the company is potentially hanging by a thread in some cases is crazy. Consider yourself extremely fortunate in these 'current market conditions' to have a job at all.

The great thing about living in this country is that if you don't like your job circumstances, you can get a new job; in a totally different industry that pays better perhaps. We're not forced to do anything. Sometime we take too much for granted in this country. We are EXTREMELY lucky to have the opportunity to pursue this career path at all. I got into this industry knowing the pay sucks, the QOL sucks and is extremely volatile. I considered all of that and still decide to do it. Anyway, just my perspective. Not intended to throw darts at anyone.

[slushie]

Originally Posted by Zero1Niner

Anyway, just my perspective.

I gotcha,
But just to pick nits, if they're hanging by a thread, they should sell the plane

[wrxpilot]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

Just cause the pay doesn't work for you doesn't mean this guy shouldn't post jobs. If it comes down to the wire, you're furloughed, have bills to pay what are you going to do? Not work and collect unemployment and live at home with mom and dad or work a job that sounds like a decent gig (hey, turbine equipment is better than CFI-ing) in a sector of the industry that probably won't lay you off in the immediate future?

If I lose my flying job, I'm going to look for another one that is in line with appropriate pay standards for that position. I'll also look at using my backup degree to get a job outside aviation if necessary. I'm not going to cave in to somebody taking advantage of the crappy hiring environment though.

[Zero1Niner]

Originally Posted by slushie

I gotcha,
But just to pick nits, if they're hanging by a thread, they should sell the plane

Agreed!

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by wrxpilot

If I lose my flying job, I'm going to look for another one that is in line with appropriate pay standards for that position. I'll also look at using my backup degree to get a job outside aviation if necessary. I'm not going to cave in to somebody taking advantage of the crappy hiring environment though.

That's awesome, there is an FO here that owns restaurants and lives courtesy of his parents. That doesn't mean that everyone is in that same situation. The "you" I wrote was assumed to be a generic "you", not "you" specifically.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by mshunter

Before I even bother to answer your question,

Don't bother. I've moved on.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by Cessna414JJB

Sorry, just to verify... when did posting a job opportunity for others to look at become subject to discussion? Be grateful for people posting this stuff and stop questioning other peoples integrity and value. It really comes across terribly crooked.

Actually I'd say he comes across as angry at the world!

[mshunter]

Originally Posted by slushie

I gotcha,
But just to pick nits, if they're hanging by a thread, they should sell the plane

And not hire a new pilot.

Originally Posted by Zero1Niner

Wow. How can you possibly disregard the current market conditions??? It always seems that when I read post like this it really shows the lack of understanding of what it takes to own and operate a business. It makes absolutely NO difference how much money, effort, sacrifice or whatever it took to earn our credentials for a job. It was your/our choice. Nobody asked any of us to 'sacrifice our kids tuition' or spend $80K on training, etc. Nobody forced any of us to choose this career path, and to insist that its somehow justifiable to demand a 'fair' wage, even when the company is potentially hanging by a thread in some cases is crazy. Consider yourself extremely fortunate in these 'current market conditions' to have a job at all.

The great thing about living in this country is that if you don't like your job circumstances, you can get a new job; in a totally different industry that pays better perhaps. We're not forced to do anything. Sometime we take too much for granted in this country. We are EXTREMELY lucky to have the opportunity to pursue this career path at all. I got into this industry knowing the pay sucks, the QOL sucks and is extremely volatile. I considered all of that and still decide to do it. Anyway, just my perspective. Not intended to throw darts at anyone.

I don't think you are seeing my point. Hard work should pay off. I am not asking to get rich. I am asking for a fair wage for a fair amount of commitment. And for people to say that "pay sucks, QOL sucks and is extremely volatile" isn't wrong, but isn't right either. You have the same chance of loosing your job with aviation as you do with just about any other industry. Two quick examples. Courtesy Chevrolet just shut their doors, out of business in a slow economy. My wifes company, a bankruptcy attorney's office just laid off 12 of 31 employees (thankfully she wasn't one of them). I would rather be let go, and search for a new job, than have to eat dirt because times are tough. If I don't make it, then thats my fault, and on to my backup. But if I am going to sacrifice everything I have worked so hard for to be in this industry, I expect it to pay off, at least in the long run. And starting at a new company making $30k a year to drive a Pilatus, I could make more as a bus driver, the greyhound type. Now if the company has the money to own the airplane, they probably have enough money to pay better than $30k a year. I applicate the fact that people post the jobs here, but don't forget to negotiate pay either. And what special training did that take, how many years of college, how many years of instructing to build your hours. Do you see my pint, now that I'm not ranting and raving?

On a final note. The pay, QOL and volatility doesn't have to suck if you don't let it. You will get out of it what you put into it. When I worked for the auto dealers as a wrench, if I wasn't happy with where I was, either due to pay, QOL, or whatever, I did something to change it. The last dealership I was at, I managed to get EVERYONE in the shop a $1.50 an hour raise. We all stuck together, and forced the OWNER to pay us what we were worth. It was a simple matter of doing some research, and presenting it to the srvc. manager and owner. Some of us were replaceable, some of us weren't ( I thankfully with my certs was going to be very hard to replace). Apply pressure at the right location, with the right info and you may be surprised what you can do.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by mshunter

I don't think you are seeing my point. Hard work should pay off. I am not asking to get rich. I am asking for a fair wage for a fair amount of commitment.

I'm just as frustrated as you, I started a thread about this a few days ago in the general topics, unfortunately I've come to the realization that what you spend on your education isn't a qualifier for what you earn out in the "real world".

[HVYMETALDRVR]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

I'm just as frustrated as you, I started a thread about this a few days ago in the general topics, unfortunately I've come to the realization that what you spend on your education isn't a qualifier for what you earn out in the "real world".

Well its not in Aviation, thats the whole problem. Compare someone that went to an Ivy League school first someone that went to a community college.

[Cessna414JJB]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

Actually I'd say he comes across as angry at the world!

That could be caused by the apparent thought patterns associated with being mad at your peers for having opportunities/ or motivation.
It goes hand in hand with a distorted sense of reality, and in many cases is associated with actually believing that oneself is the only one truly diserving to be fairly compensated. What they are actually mad about is not the fact that there are jobs that are not paying the right amount of money for them it's the fact that they realize that the positions will be filled. If not by them, then by someone else. I truly understand the anger and disappointment, I just don't think it does much.

Unless we turn this profession around and start to take charge, nothing will happen. Until then APC's looser section is the best place to go:
Brainwash for free, right here:

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/leaving-career/

Like DE727UPS tends to say:
"To each their own"

If I wanted to raise cattle in Montana, I would go raise cattle in Montana.

Cheers,

[mshunter]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

I'm just as frustrated as you, I started a thread about this a few days ago in the general topics, unfortunately I've come to the realization that what you spend on your education isn't a qualifier for what you earn out in the "real world".

Again, I don't think you understand my point. I wholly understand yours, I think. But I don't consider the amount of money being spent as a qualifier. I consider the amount of determination, and sacrifice, and time away from family, etc. the qualifier. Some of us have come into aviation, with very little investment. But the amount of time invested in making it into a career, should allow for a more lucrative business. And unfortunately, some place's will continue to hire pilots who have 500 hrs., to be SIC of a CRJ for $19k a year. I for one, have a family to support, so the whole "I have mouths to feed" doesn't boad well with me. This is the number one reason why I don't take jobs like this. I have a job, I am a flight instructor, and I make a decent wage, at a busy school (even in this economy, I get about 1 new student a week). So, I am thankful I am still working. But if I was out of work, I still wouldn't take a position where I had to make tough decisions about the safety of others, with pressure to get them there, for $30k a year. But If thats someone else's peragotive, then so be it. I can't single handedly change this industry. Thats why we have to stick together as a group, and see that this is not O.K. for us to sell ourselves short. Even in these tough times. If it's still not gonna get the bills paid, then why bother. Go to the backup.

[wrxpilot]

Originally Posted by mshunter

If it's still not gonna get the bills paid, then why bother. Go to the backup.

Absolutely... New guys, take note - this is why you get a degree in something non-aviation related.

[Douglas]

Hey, I have been averaging a little over $1,000/month.....not moving on.

Those of you that are not paying the bills as I have read in the past, take you own advice and don't let the door hit you on your way out.

[SIUav8er]

Originally Posted by killbilly

What if it only has you flying 15-30 hours a month?

even worse. reason being you're probably on call quite a bit. so now youre in a position that requires you to be available, youre not getting very much flight time, AND your making poverty wages.

[mshunter]

Originally Posted by Douglas

Hey, I have been averaging a little over $1,000/month.....not moving on.

Those of you that are not paying the bills as I have read in the past, take you own advice and don't let the door hit you on your way out.

I am at about $2000 a month(take home). Good thing my wife makes decent money. BUT, I am instructing, and know this is part of "paying your dues." So I don't expect to make very much. And with the way things are going, I'll probably be(or at least hope to be) makeing $3000 a month within another 2 or 3 months. Even in this economy, my little FBO is picking up new students all the time. So why would I take a pay cut to move up in the world, I thought that was the whole point of moving up, to get bigger and better? Not bigger and worse.

[Zero1Niner]

Originally Posted by mshunter

And not hire a new pilot.
I don't think you are seeing my point. Hard work should pay off. I am not asking to get rich. I am asking for a fair wage for a fair amount of commitment. And for people to say that "pay sucks, QOL sucks and is extremely volatile" isn't wrong, but isn't right either. You have the same chance of loosing your job with aviation as you do with just about any other industry. Two quick examples. Courtesy Chevrolet just shut their doors, out of business in a slow economy. My wifes company, a bankruptcy attorney's office just laid off 12 of 31 employees (thankfully she wasn't one of them). I would rather be let go, and search for a new job, than have to eat dirt because times are tough. If I don't make it, then thats my fault, and on to my backup. But if I am going to sacrifice everything I have worked so hard for to be in this industry, I expect it to pay off, at least in the long run. And starting at a new company making $30k a year to drive a Pilatus, I could make more as a bus driver, the greyhound type. Now if the company has the money to own the airplane, they probably have enough money to pay better than $30k a year. I applicate the fact that people post the jobs here, but don't forget to negotiate pay either. And what special training did that take, how many years of college, how many years of instructing to build your hours. Do you see my pint, now that I'm not ranting and raving?

On a final note. The pay, QOL and volatility doesn't have to suck if you don't let it. You will get out of it what you put into it. When I worked for the auto dealers as a wrench, if I wasn't happy with where I was, either due to pay, QOL, or whatever, I did something to change it. The last dealership I was at, I managed to get EVERYONE in the shop a $1.50 an hour raise. We all stuck together, and forced the OWNER to pay us what we were worth. It was a simple matter of doing some research, and presenting it to the srvc. manager and owner. Some of us were replaceable, some of us weren't ( I thankfully with my certs was going to be very hard to replace). Apply pressure at the right location, with the right info and you may be surprised what you can do.

mshunter,

Thanks for the reply. I completely understand your position, I just dont agree with it. Please understand, I mean no disrespect by any of my comments.

There are no guarantees in this world. Everything is driven by supply and demand. The Chevy dealer closed because people are not buying cars (at least not Chevy's). One would have to assume the attorneys office laid off the workers because business is down...much less likely because the owner(s) are trying to fatten their pockets more. This 'force the owner' mindset is the main part that I disagree with. I have owned businesses. The idea of someone trying to 'force' me to do something in MY business, that I took ALL of the risk in starting, all of the sleepless nights trying to figure out how to make payroll and pay the bills, the countless months that I went without a paycheck just to keep the business alive so the employees would have a job to come back to, just doesn't make sense to me. You mentioned that you would rather be let go instead of having to take a pay cut in tough times...I just don't get it. I, for one, would MUCH rather have the option of taking the pay cut, scraping by for a while, but still having a job to go to. When I say the option, I mean you always can leave and find something else if you choose. No one has a gun to you head saying you have to do this.

I agree that in a more idealistic world, one would expect their investment in whatever direction or path they chose (training cost, college, etc) to pay off somehow. That would be great...its just not the way it is. EXPECTING something to pay off, simply because you chose to play in this sandbox just doesn't seem realistic to me. Who will guarantee the business owner that his business will succeed and that he will get a return on his investment? The same business that he dumped his life savings into, mortgaged his house, personally signed for lines of credit, etc. to get off the ground? No one. He has no guarantee at all. And should he sell the plane if he cant afford to pay someone $60K/year with great benefits? Seems like that is the owners decision. If someone else is willing to do the job for $30K, should the owner not allow that? Would you pay 50% more for the Chevy car from the local dealer, just to support him? I wouldn't.

Anyway, just a different perspective.