Traffic Reporting Pilot

[Ray Finkle]

Originally Posted by Joe Gremlin

I don't think it's a case of plus everyone is willing to work for that. I think it's a case of the jobs pay what they pay exactly because there is a never ending line of guys who will jump over themselves to work for that. In fact, I'll go one further and say its exactly because there is a never ending line of guys who will actually jump over each other to work for no pay at all that most of the low end jobs have such #### pay.

Yes profit margins are slim and times is tough. But supply and demand are alive and well and as long as there is an ample supply of pilots willing to work for free and an even more ample supply willing to work to peanuts, then peanuts is the best that most can hope to make. We have seen the enemy and it is us.

All that being said, I'm still curious just how many peanuts the traffic job pays.

And that's exactly my point. Anyone, better grammar, willing to take a low paying job just makes it that much harder for everyone to get a fair paying job. And the companies know this, and many take advantage of it and wont pay very much. Which brings us back to those of us willing to take it for less. Maybe my first post didn't explain it well.

I was simply saying that its a endless circle. For every lowball company, I can show you someone willing to take the job. For every pilot willing to take a lower than what it should be paying job, I can show you a company willing to supply it.

And given the state of our industry right now, I fear its going to be worse than ever. Its an employers market right now.

Me thinks we are in agreement here. Its a vicious little circle we weave...

[Joe Gremlin]

Maybe it's just symantics and doesn't make a difference but I think it's more accurate to say for every lowball company I can show you a thousand pilots willing to take the job. And that's part of the problem IMO. If it were only one pilot per company or one pilot per pilot seat, I think payscales would be much better. But it's one thousand pilots per pilot seat and most of those thousand will gladly murder each other for the chance to work for crap wages. It's simple supply and demand.

When it comes to wages and QOL, it is always better to work in a field where there are more jobs than qualified employees. It's been a long time since professional aviation was in that position and it will likely be a long time before it's ever in the position again. And yet, every year some eagar 22 year old will log onto an internet forum and talk about how he thinks the industry will turn around in the next couple years as all those baby boomers reach mandatory retirement age. Yep, good luck with that kiddo.

[Ray Finkle]

Originally Posted by Joe Gremlin

Maybe it's just symantics and doesn't make a difference but I think it's more accurate to say for every lowball company I can show you a thousand pilots willing to take the job. And that's part of the problem IMO. If it were only one pilot per company or one pilot per pilot seat, I think payscales would be much better. But it's one thousand pilots per pilot seat and most of those thousand will gladly murder each other for the chance to work for crap wages. It's simple supply and demand.

When it comes to wages and QOL, it is always better to work in a field where there are more jobs than qualified employees. It's been a long time since professional aviation was in that position and it will likely be a long time before it's ever in the position again. And yet, every year some eagar 22 year old will log onto an internet forum and talk about how he thinks the industry will turn around in the next couple years as all those baby boomers reach mandatory retirement age. Yep, good luck with that kiddo.

I see what you are saying, I agree that by numbers, pilots outweigh the jobs. that's for sure. Its like the age old question, which came first? Chicken or Egg? It sucks no matter how we describe it. The real hardship comes when you have to do what you have to do to survive. There's plenty of pilots who will take the lowball offer or lowball the lowballer and work for free. Others, dont want to do it, but its either take it and get the experience and move on, or, starve while you sit on principles and pride. Tough stuff.

Here's a thought..How do you get every single pilot to stand up and say enough? No more? How do you mandate ethics and integrity to those that dont care? I have no idea myself.

[Joe Gremlin]

Originally Posted by Ray Finkle

Here's a thought..How do you get every single pilot to stand up and say enough? No more? How do you mandate ethics and integrity to those that dont care? I have no idea myself.

How do I get every single pilot to stand up and say enough? I don't. No one does. If the idiots want to be idiots, that's on them. Instead, I did the smartest thing I could do. I put the plane on the ground and found a career field where I'm on the right side of the supply and demand equation. I have never once missed flying professionally.

[Ray Finkle]

Originally Posted by Joe Gremlin

How do I get every single pilot to stand up and say enough? I don't. No one does. If the idiots want to be idiots, that's on them. Instead, I did the smartest thing I could do. I put the plane on the ground and found a career field where I'm on the right side of the supply and demand equation. I have never once missed flying professionally.

Right. You can't. There will always be those that do and for whatever reason. Its not easy being on the ladder trying to climb. But hey, in the end, if you are happy with what you do in life, then you've found the real answer. Be happy!

[ppragman]

I dunno, this "i'm too important and have too much responsibility to make mc donalds wages," is a little too pretentious for me. For god sakes, keep what job you have, and get whatever work you can right now before the economy collapses and you can't flind pilot jobs, or you can't find a job in aviation at all. We do this because we love it, not because of the money, there are plenty of RJ guys with degrees who could make a hell of a lot more out side of aviation and own their supercub or whatever. Get a job that pays, and ride out the ####storm that cometh, a cessna 150 captain for traffic watch probably shouldn't pay a lot anyway. And no, this is not flame bait, its just the way it is. Look at the market yo yoing, see the writing on the wall.

[slushie]

It's just a straight comparison.

In any career field, their should be some consideration of the skills needed, the responsibility and risks taken, the value of the equipment that you can destroy...etc, in determining wages.

Making sure you put a big mac in a bag, not a quarter pounder.
vs/
Keeping a $100,000 airplane with two people in it from running into multi-million-dollar airplanes with hundreds aboard.


But we should humble ourselves and accept the condition of the industry..... sure...

[Joe Gremlin]

Originally Posted by ppragman

We do this because we love it, not because of the money, there are plenty of RJ guys with degrees who could make a hell of a lot more out side of aviation and own their supercub or whatever.

Which reminds me of what I think is the great paradox of professional aviation. A big part of pilot safety revolves around the ability to make good decisions. And professional pilots are therefore expected to be able to make better decisions than private pilots. But when you consider the low pay, nearly total lack of job security, and often low QOL, then in becomes apparent that the very act of choosing to become a professional pilot clearly displays that one is in fact, not able to make good decisions. As the saying goes, if I was a person who made good decisions, do you think I'd be doing this for a living?

[Lowlevel]

Originally Posted by slushie

It's just a straight comparison.

In any career field, their should be some consideration of the skills needed, the responsibility and risks taken, the value of the equipment that you can destroy...etc, in determining wages.

Making sure you put a big mac in a bag, not a quarter pounder.
vs/
Keeping a $100,000 airplane with two people in it from running into multi-million-dollar airplanes with hundreds aboard.


But we should humble ourselves and accept the condition of the industry..... sure...

I made 3X as much driving a truck as I make flying an airliner. OK, the truck weighed 30,000 lbs. more than a CRJ, but I think the people who are put in a position where your pax are depending on you to get them to their destination safely deserve more than the current pay. Also, the airplane is a multi-million dollar plane, the truck is around $100,000 (plus cost of cargo).
As one CEO, of a not so good airline (I'm being kind), once said "There are plenty of pilots out there that are willing to fly for the wages I offer, so no, I will not raise wages." That thought will continue until airline pilots refuse to fly for the low wages we receive. Oh yes, and let us all pray that the airline I speak of goes away soon (ie;goes bankrupt and fails).