Key Lime Air

[Douglas]

Key Lime Air is looking for a PA-31 (Navajo) VFR only Captain.
They are based in Denver.
Minimum flight time is 500 TT. Nothing said about Multi time.

Not a whole lot of information but that is all I know..
And I don't know if this is tied into their "Pay for Training" plan.

-Douglas

[Number1atNumber2]

Oh by all that is holy, NO! Do not go there! Unless you like badly maintained planes, a horrible safety record, and the Feds ramping you once a week. Save your certificate and fly for someone else. The contract for SIC ing there is 24 months, unless you do PFT. PIC contract is $7K just for the Navajo. The Metroliner is operated single pilot. I believe the contract was 24 months at $14k and its is NOT pro-rated. (For the record I worked there as a PIC, I did not PFT or PFJ).

I was there for half a year, you may PM me if you want more details. They may be based in Denver, but you'll be highly encouraged to live at the outstations, espically since on Fridays they don't come back to Denver at night, the next flight back to Denver is Monday evening for MOST routes.

I'd would often write up planes that were signed off as "ops check good" and it would be painfully obvious nothing was done to see if things were fixed. Example: the de-ice boots. When I mentioned this I was told "well you cant always fix things on the first try" even though all you have to do is hit the button to see if they work or not..

The FAA ramp checks those guys A LOT, hell, their office is right next to the cargo ramp at DIA where most planes are parked.

They also played games with my paycheck, such as 'forgetting' when I got a pay raise, yet always noticing when I owed them even $5.

These are the guys that had a near miss with a Frontier A319 at DIA last winter because a metroliner taxiied onto the runway in front of them.

http://www.denverpost.com/watercooler/ci_7529642


Also 7 deaths in 8 years is a bit much.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-133241945.html

[wrxpilot]

Agreed - stay the hell away from that place. Pilots getting violated, accidents, etc. Not worth it. They've had a bad rep as long as I can remember!!

[Number1atNumber2]

Western Aviatiors is out in Denver, they fly out of Jeffco in Navajos. I did meet one of the guys from management there and he seemed alright, and the pilots I met from there didn't seem to have major complaints. Dunno about the times they want for new hires, but it may be worth a look.

[Douglas]

wow, that is a good heads up

[skylee4652002]

thanks for the information

[SIUAv8r]

Originally Posted by Number1atNumber2

They also played games with my paycheck, such as 'forgetting' when I got a pay raise, yet always noticing when I owed them even $5.

Why would you owe them money?

[Number1atNumber2]

Two other instances come to mind of me owing them: one was I screwed up the times I put down on my paysheet. I don't blame them for double checking, everyone makes mistakes, but they seemed to be a little less careful if the mistake was in their favor.

The second time was when I was driving one of their cars and they tried to stick me with a parking ticket someone else recieved driving that same car a few weeks earlier.

These were common mistakes that anyone could do, but with all the other junk they did, I no longer gave them the benefit of the doubt. I wasn't the only guy there that they forgot about a pay raise with, yet where on you like a fat kid on a cupcake if the mistake wasn't in management's favor. Maybe that's just human nature, but I still stand by my statement that I don't think its a good place to work at.

[surreal1221]

Anyone have the link to their little runway incursion adventure?

What a joke that was.

[Number1atNumber2]

I posted it on my first reply, it's the first link. Here's the real gem to that story: the guy in that incident was their director of training...

[TexasFlyer]

To put it simple. If I see Key Lime on some one's resume as their current or most recent employer, it goes in the junk pile. So even from a career building perspective, don't go there. You might have to get through a jerk of a recruiter like myself some day to get that dream job you really want. But if Key Lime was one of your very recent employers, you won't even be getting the call. I can't risk hiring people with bad judgement. Work here and it'll take a couple years of smart choices and career moves for me and some others I know in HR to see you learned how to exercise good judgement.

[Firebird2XC]

Originally Posted by TexasFlyer

To put it simple. If I see Key Lime on some one's resume as their current or most recent employer, it goes in the junk pile. So even from a career building perspective, don't go there. You might have to get through a jerk of a recruiter like myself some day to get that dream job you really want. But if Key Lime was one of your very recent employers, you won't even be getting the call. I can't risk hiring people with bad judgement. Work here and it'll take a couple years of smart choices and career moves for me and some others I know in HR to see you learned how to exercise good judgement.

Thanks for the heads up- this right here oughta be enough incentive for ANY aspiring/up and coming pilot to steer clear!

There here's what JC's all about, folks!

[Number1atNumber2]

Originally Posted by TexasFlyer

To put it simple. If I see Key Lime on some one's resume as their current or most recent employer, it goes in the junk pile. So even from a career building perspective, don't go there. You might have to get through a jerk of a recruiter like myself some day to get that dream job you really want. But if Key Lime was one of your very recent employers, you won't even be getting the call. I can't risk hiring people with bad judgement. Work here and it'll take a couple years of smart choices and career moves for me and some others I know in HR to see you learned how to exercise good judgement.

Wait just a sec! Just because the employee worked there, you'd punish him/her because the company is crappy?!? Just having worked there doesn't equal bad judgement. Some pilots may not know how crappy they are until they get there. When I interviewed they made a huge effort to show how safe they were, so I believed they were changing their tune. I heard they had a not great reputation at the time I applied, but I had no idea how bad they were. Obviously I was wrong, but hindsight is always 20/20.

I stood up for myself to not fly when I felt the plane was unsafe, and quit when they strong encouraged me to begin doing dumb things. While I do not respect Key Lime, I wouldn't trade my IFR experience gained there for anything. Sadly Key Lime isn't a minority in the cargo world for their practices. I know a few ex Key Limers that work for very respectable companies now and would trust them flying my family. I sure as hell trust em more than some 400 hr FO with a CRJ course they had at flight school.

Just because you are/were a freight dog doesn't mean you're a cowboy pilot. Key Lime may strongly encourage you to fly when it's not safe but they aren't stupid enough to force a pilot to break a reg, how do you think the FAA hasn't pulled thier certificate yet? (Even though, they really, really, should).

[Number1atNumber2]

Originally Posted by Firebird2XC

Thanks for the heads up- this right here oughta be enough incentive for ANY aspiring/up and coming pilot to steer clear!

There here's what JC's all about, folks!

I totally agree, I wish I knew about JC back in the day.

[cfii2007]

Originally Posted by Number1atNumber2

Oh by all that is holy, NO! Do not go there! Unless you like badly maintained planes, a horrible safety record, and the Feds ramping you once a week. Save your certificate and fly for someone else. The contract for SIC ing there is 24 months, unless you do PFT. PIC contract is $7K just for the Navajo. The Metroliner is operated single pilot. I believe the contract was 24 months at $14k and its is NOT pro-rated. (For the record I worked there as a PIC, I did not PFT or PFJ).

I was there for half a year, you may PM me if you want more details. They may be based in Denver, but you'll be highly encouraged to live at the outstations, espically since on Fridays they don't come back to Denver at night, the next flight back to Denver is Monday evening for MOST routes.

I'd would often write up planes that were signed off as "ops check good" and it would be painfully obvious nothing was done to see if things were fixed. Example: the de-ice boots. When I mentioned this I was told "well you cant always fix things on the first try" even though all you have to do is hit the button to see if they work or not..

The FAA ramp checks those guys A LOT, hell, their office is right next to the cargo ramp at DIA where most planes are parked.

They also played games with my paycheck, such as 'forgetting' when I got a pay raise, yet always noticing when I owed them even $5.

These are the guys that had a near miss with a Frontier A319 at DIA last winter because a metroliner taxiied onto the runway in front of them.

http://www.denverpost.com/watercooler/ci_7529642


Also 7 deaths in 8 years is a bit much.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-133241945.html

I like how the article refers to the incident as a "near hit" FINALLY, somebody gets it right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Number1atNumber2]

Texas, I appologize if my response came back a bit on the 'hot' side. I understand not wanting to hire guys with bad judgement. And there are plenty of cowboy pilots at Key Slime, but there are (were) good ones too. My point is don't judge too quickly. We all make bad choices, hopefully we turn them from "bad chioces" into good experiences and good judgement afterwards.

We've all done dumb things in the plane and made life choices we would change in hindsight, it just comes down to what we learn.

[TexasFlyer]

Originally Posted by Number1atNumber2

Wait just a sec! Just because the employee worked there, you'd punish him/her because the company is crappy?!? Just having worked there doesn't equal bad judgement. Some pilots may not know how crappy they are until they get there. When I interviewed they made a huge effort to show how safe they were, so I believed they were changing their tune. I heard they had a not great reputation at the time I applied, but I had no idea how bad they were. Obviously I was wrong, but hindsight is always 20/20.

Companies can be smoke and mirrors sometimes. Things can look good until you start working there first hand. But guess what. This is the world of technology now. I would question if you actually researched them before hand. A simple Google search would turn up worlds of complaints and discontent about them. So if you can't use Google or modern tools for research, I'd question your viability as an employee. So yes. Good chance you won't get a call just for having that on the resume as your CURRENT employer or very RECENT employer.

I understand, no one is perfect. Heck, I made some bad moves mysef over the years that I learned from. That's why if it's on the resume in the past, maybe a non-issue. I'll see what you learned from that decision and why you left after such a short time with them (or why you stuck around so long if it gets to over the 18-24 month point since that would raise many concerns).

Now if you left Key Lime to go to Gulfstream Airlines, you'll never get the call since you clearly do lack good judgement.

Now if you went from there to Airnet, I may like that decision better and after a couple years with Airnet you've redeemed yourself. Expect the call from me.

Sometimes life is not fair.

Originally Posted by Number1atNumber2

I stood up for myself to not fly when I felt the plane was unsafe, and quit when they strong encouraged me to begin doing dumb things.

That's a good answer. I'd assume you did not stick around for 2+ years, since you realized this is not how things need to be. And you used better judgement on the next hiring situation. I bet you did more research!

Now, if you worked for them back in 1999 or even 2001, maybe a lot of word was not on the street yet about them. But anyone from about 2003 and beyond should have had the resources to research them in advance. So anything after that point would cause me to have to dig deep. After all, how people make career decisions is a good guideline to their overall judgement when faced with many difficult choices.

Originally Posted by Number1atNumber2

While I do not respect Key Lime, I wouldn't trade my IFR experience gained there for anything.

Yes. The life of a freight dawg. It is valued. So long as the experience you refer to was not gained in unsafe situations. But then, there are much better freight outfits to gain the same experience.

[rossy1163]

TexasFlyer,
I think you should use Google to research how to be a recruiter. Clearly you have no idea about how the industry works. I would be curious as to which airlines would trust your obvious lack of judgement to hire qualified pilots. I know plenty of people who have left operations worse than Key Lime to work for Southwest, avantair, etc.. Just because someone goes to a sleazy 135 cargo operation does not mean they lack judgement. Sometimes one has to take certain jobs to get to where they want to go to simply time build and IFR skills, etc.. It builds character and most people in aviation start from the bottom and work there way up. Its how most industries work. Again you can research that via Goolge. <edited unnecessary sentiment>

[TexasFlyer]

Originally Posted by rossy1163

<EDITED!>

Sorry you feel that way.

On a reality check note, I am not some general recruiter who gives everyone an equal chance. I work for companies in business aviation that pay anywhere from $20k to $40k to find one person many times. And it is always a pretty confidential national search for the right person. Why? They aren't looking for the average person. They have a specific criteria and high standard for the position in question. So they will settle for no less. And they know I can cut through all the average Joe's in the world to find the one they desire. And while they may have 10 positions open, I only work on one or two since the rest of the positions they can hire the average person into.

So if I was some recruiter in an airline or at a company filling a volume of positions, I would need to change my practices. But for what I do, things are very specific. So I know what companies want since I only find and work with the top 10% of all people in the industry. I also coach those on career direction who want to become the top 10% since it's usually not too late to fix a questionable past.

So I wrote my opinion above based on the facts of an indusrty I experience every day. And also to inform those starting out that may not realize how early decisions may affect them in the short or long term. Some just want to fly and have no ambition to be an executive in the future. That is fine. Nothing wrong with that. But if you want an executive level job in the future within corporate aviation, there are many things to consider to include your company choices, career path, growing level of responsibility over time, and job stability along with the timing of each change you make.

If you felt forced to work in bad conditions or for a marginal company, that's a choice you made based on factors in your life at the time. It's a shame some feel like you have to be abused to pay your dues, but that's people's choice if they choose such. It's just important for pilots to know (and any professional) that those choices could have short term consequences; limited long term consequences unless a history of bad decisions is demonstrated.

[woog315]

Texasflyer, you are delusional dude.

If anyone is wondering who they're taking advice from in this thread, you can find the answer in his profile - http://www.myspace.com/rockstar_av8r

[Kristie]

and your point? that what...he has an outside life other than aviation?

If you have a problem with him, use the PM function so we won't need to moderate mmmkay?!

[Number1atNumber2]

Lets not get too personal here. He's got his opinions on what kind of employees he'll look at, and one's he won't. My myspace profile is similar, so I don't see an issue there, but I digress.

I may not agree 100% with the way he evaluates, but that's not my call. All one can do is explain the counter point. We are all here to benefit from each other and try to enjoy the ride as we do so.

Now to further my statement... I'd like to add, sometimes a pilot has less options available. Part of what made me get on with Key Lime, besides giving them the benefit of the doubt, was that I was living in Denver and had no desire to leave. I still hate that I left, but that's a story for another time. I was lucky to be as flexable as I was, as I am single and don't own a house. If that wasn't the case, it would have made leaving much more difficult.
Key Lime makes their pilots sign insane contracts that are brutal to break, and when you couple that with crappy pay, leaving all of the sudden gets even more difficult.
And, your next employer may not pay all that great either. We don't all get to go to the best companies. Its easy to feel trapped when you work at a craphole, and quitting isn't a decision you can make lightly, nor should you.

My point is, I'd interview a pilot after working there and try to feel them out. You won't know if they are a cowboy or not. So it would be in your best interest to grill em on that. So I would recommend having a look first. I imagine a guy that ends up working at a few dumps, will be less likely to moan about his working conditions when he finally gets to a good job.

And the freight dog will have plenty of real world experience with flying in bad weather with bad equipment, so I doubt he'd flip out at the first time of trouble. Again though, you want to make sure they are not cowboys that laugh in the face of a Level 5 t-storm.

[staplegun]

Originally Posted by woog315

http://www.myspace.com/rockstar_av8r

Reason #437 why grown-ups shouldn't have a "myspace" page...



Kevin

[TexasFlyer]

Hmmm... I'm not embarrassed about my personal life. I stay connected with a few life long friends on Myspace since my career keeps me moving a lot. Not to mention, it also is my social network for my love of the arts and electric music.

Funny, the execs at the $90 Billion company that know of that account seem to have no problem with my life or my work performance. Nor does the large investment company that holds 30+ business aviation operations around the United States. Wow, did you even look at it deep enough to find three other executives actually linked to me on Myspace? Imagine that.

It's a shame that some take offense to what I wrote. I am just listing out real life observations. These observations and my typical search requirements that companies dictate to me are painful to some professionals (the ones who think they qualify for something but do not fit the search criteria I been tasked to locate). Don't worry, when I tell people they are not qualified when they call me I get much of the same reaction I read here. Yet, I still try to explain to them how in the future they could qualify. But that will normally take a good 10 to 15 years of work on building thier experience through key moves at key times. Anyway, it's not the first time I been told I was a jerk when being very direct on what people hire me to find, and not to find.

Anyway, I have nothing to hide. Do you? I feel it's a shame that when people grow up, they forget how to soften up and enjoy life. I still enjoy my ice cream and cake, and even eating it with my fingers sometimes just for fun. But I'm not here to debate that or have a conversation about my personal life with those who don't know me on a personal or professional level. I'm here to help by sharing my real life experience from a unique perspective most will never see (after all, I hear things that may blow your mind in the executive world you may never see... and some of it is stuff I wish not to hear again!).

To educate back on the topic of this thread....

In the professional world, I simply do as my clients request. Just so happens many companies request the same criteria from me. Although they know nothing of what their competitor is requesting from me since I work confidentially on most searches. So I see a theme across companies when looking for a FBO General Managers, Director of Maintenances, Chief Pilots, Flight Department Managers, A&Ps, Corporate Pilots, etc. From years of doing this, I compiled the theme in the industry to know what makes someone the top 10% in the President of these companies eyes. It's a combination of career path and responsibility on the resume along with the person's personality, communication skills, leadership ability, and ambition. If any one thing is missing, they are not top 10%. Is this a bad thing? No. It just means I can't help them. Would you not like what you could do to be the top 10%?

Keep in mind. I do not know what makes top 10% in the airline world. I am no expert there. But I am an expert in the business aviation world. And quite frankly, the bad part of it is this. I am the top 10% in my current industry based on my experience, background, etc. But I am a career changer. And I know for a fact the odds are very low that I fit my own hiring criteria for the top 10% as a pilot in business aviation.

Why? My resume will not be "ideal" due to me getting a very late start on my flying career; I'm about 10 years too late to excel up to a point early enough in my career to be the top 10% in my prime. And that is a fact of life I will face on the corporate aviation side of things. My own firm will not be able to "place me" in ten years most likely. Sad, isn't it? No, I know there are other places to go and possibly with the connections I have, luck will be on my side. After all, networking and who you know over the years is more than half the battle in the corporate aviation world.

So don't be bitter toward me. I will face my own song and dance in 10 years. Oh, and no apology needed. We're all friends here on Jet Careers. Some threads just get a little heated

[azpilot84]

I had a Cheif Instructor at a flight school who worked (past tense) there for a couple months... I can't remember if it was the left or right main but one of them collapsed on a landing.