Low Time Interview

[DE727UPS]

Hey Clocks. More power to ya buddy.

The 300 hour guys are NOT the ones who take the time to gain some valuable experience as a CFI. But rather, take a RJ course instead.

The 800 hours guys are more likely better pilots by honing their skills as a CFI. I'm all for keeping standards as high as humanly possible.

As low as the bar has gone. And as much as the old days brought a better pilot to an entry level airline job. I'd always choose the guy with more time who paid his dues.

Jet airline pilot should NEVER be an entry level job....

[SoCalAprch]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

Jet airline pilot should NEVER be an entry level job....

There should be a 121 min req about SIC time. Just like 1500 for an ATP they should come up with at least 750 to log SIC for 121. Just my feelings and I know many wont agree.

Think back to when you were 13 and look back at yourself. Look at the clothes you wore. Thats how it is when you are a 300 hour pilot compared to a 500 hour pilot compared to a 1000 hour pilot compared............ on and on and on.....

Respect the industy and maybe things will change for the better, hold out and instruct for a year! Get the hours to goto a place that will give you a good QOL, thats quality of life for you newbies. Maybe if more of us started doing this there wouldn't be the MESAs and its poor excuse for an airline Go Jets and some of these 250/50 excuses for airlines that take anyone with a pulse. And just maybe these places would start respecting their pilot groups more. Everyone with 250/50 that go to these places just make other regional airlines think it is acceptable to pay your F/O's $17k a year and have piss poor work rules. Also realize that once you get there and get over the fact you are flying a regional JET it just becomes another plane, just like the first time you flew a cessna it was awesome but after flying it for 200 hours you start to curse the crappy cessna and want to fly something bigger or faster. It will loose its total appeal and you will realize that you are being treated like arse and I promise you will start wanting more.

Let the flaming begin!!

[fly8slep]

Originally Posted by WAFlyBoy

You're saying it's a fact that 250 hour pilots don't know [instrument] procedures, mins, and DPs well? Where are these pilots coming from? Are they instrument rated? Keep me away from the airlines that hire them!

I'm currently going through pt121 training for a certain tprop operator. The other day we were practicing mock flights on the CPT(poster of a cockpit). One volunteer sat in front with the instructor to demonstrate. It all went well untill the instructor asked him to pickup the clearance. I #### you not he didnt' konw how to do it becasue the airport he trained at didn't have a clearance delivery, i guess he only used tower at his home airport. The instructor was staring at him. I can only imagine he was thinking about the days when he got on with this comapny and he needed 1500 and 500 hours of multi for the privalage to be at this same job this 200 hour pilot. There are a few people on here that basically have no mutli expereience other than passing their checkride. I'd imagine this is the same for other tprop operators. Street captains don't help either.. 200 hour fo mixed with a 0 experience CA probably don't mix.

[cmsuav8r]

What about the guys in the 1960's and 1970's? One of my professors was hired by TWA with 220 hrs and flew for 25 years without an accident or incident. Is it impossible to have a low time pilot in a jet? No its not, however, I do agree that it is good to have some experience under your belt first. Before you flame me, you should know that I plan on becoming a flight instructor so that I can build hours to go to an airline with the likes of xjet or skywest.

[DAS]

Supply and demand.

[jonnyb]

Originally Posted by DAS

Supply and demand.

That's for sure. There is definitely a huge supply of very low time pilots willing to work for next to nothing.

[DAS]

Originally Posted by jonnyb

That's for sure. There is definitely a huge supply of very low time pilots willing to work for next to nothing.

Flight instructing pays next to nothing, and has no benefits.
Work for a Regional Airline or Flight instructing? It is a tough decision a for low time pilot.

[zmiller4]

Originally Posted by DAS

Work for a Regional Airline or Flight instructing? It is a tough decision a for low time pilot.

It shouldn't be a decision for a low time pilot. I'm glad my company at least makes an attempt at standards...it's difficult to get 1000hrs without taking a role of responsibility in an airplane. At 300hrs? It likely that they've rarely even flown alone.

It's not about bitterness, it's about common sense. All you guys who think it's just fine that 250hr wet comm folks are at airlines, go and find *one* captain, check airman, FAA inspector who thinks this is in any way acceptable.

[NJA_Capt]

Originally Posted by cmsuav8r

What about the guys in the 1960's and 1970's? One of my professors was hired by TWA with 220 hrs and flew for 25 years without an accident or incident.

I love how this one always comes up.

Did he happen to mention how long he flew the panel? Most of the "60 & 70s" airline pilots flew the first +/- 10 years as an FE. Very few went straight to an FO seat....unless it was in a DC3 or F27. And remember, that was way before CRM and the Captains didn't let FOs touch anything but the radio.

[DE727UPS]

"Flight instructing pays next to nothing, and has no benefits."

Flight instructing has great benefits, as do other methods of become a well rounded pilot before getting into the jet.

You're looking at it strictly from a low time, wanna be an airline pilot, financial, standpoint.

High time pilots look at it from a "what can you offer me as an F/O" standpoint.

That these two ways of looking at the problem differ so much at this website, over the years, is not really much of a surprise. I just find it amusing that those who find no fault with low time jet F/O's are usually low time pilots.

Makes a lot of sense, really.

[Nick]

Originally Posted by DAS

Flight instructing pays next to nothing, and has no benefits.

In this job market, if you are working as a flight instructor and are making next to nothing with no benefits then you are doing so by choice.

Myself and a number of people I know took a significant paycut to go from CFI to 135/regional airline.

[Fly_Unity]

I dont think Flight instructing is all what its put out to be. I learned alot Flight Instructing private pilot students, But I would say I had a better chance passing an airline Interview Sim After I got done fresh out of ATP where I flew Star's and DP's every day. Now all I do as a flight instructor is watch my students fly circles doing stalls, and slow flight which you dont do in jets.
I guess I should start using my double eye...

[zmiller4]

Originally Posted by Fly_Unity

I dont think Flight instructing is all what its put out to be. I learned alot Flight Instructing private pilot students, But I would say I had a better chance passing an airline Interview Sim After I got done fresh out of ATP where I flew Star's and DP's every day. Now all I do as a flight instructor is watch my students fly circles doing stalls, and slow flight which you dont do in jets.

Argh.

You could train a monkey to pass an airline interview sim ride. It doesn't really matter--that's not really where you prove how capable a pilot you are. That happens on the job. The experience you gain as an instructor will be really, really valuable later in your career.

[FSIPILOT]

Originally Posted by jonnyb

Yeah, I totally agree with you, 250-500 hour pilots have no business flying a regional jet for an airline.

JonnyB, right there with ya brother. On a side note if I'm not misstaken I've seen that altimiter in a LR-31... but mine said FL510 ;-)

[FSIPILOT]

From the horses mouth. Have a friend who heads initial interview sim rides for a regional and its by no means good these days. To spoon feed significantly under qualified beginner pilots through a lax interview to keep airplanes flying the interview ride has gone something like this: day VFR, no wind, both engines working properly, no abnorms/emergencies of any kind, allowed to use all tools AP and FD if desired, take off to clean vectors to a 15 mile final, speed/configuration and checklists for landing get spoon fed, just simply fly the ILS. According to him even getting close to passing this pre-employment airline sim ride is few and far between. Can an applicant get an airplane off the ground and back down in the most perfect of perfect conditions; the out come is as one with open eyes would expect.

[adreamer]

Well, here is my opinion, if you pass the interview, hours does not matter in training. Experiences do make some difference. Attitude makes difference.

Low time interview is the same as high time interview for my current employer.

just my 0.02

[SoCalAprch]

Originally Posted by Fly_Unity

I dont think Flight instructing is all what its put out to be. I learned alot Flight Instructing private pilot students, But I would say I had a better chance passing an airline Interview Sim After I got done fresh out of ATP where I flew Star's and DP's every day. Now all I do as a flight instructor is watch my students fly circles doing stalls, and slow flight which you dont do in jets.
I guess I should start using my double eye...

Just because you can fly a DP or a Star doesn't mean anything. I could teach my grandma how to read a DP that doesn't mean she should go fly a commercial airliner. And congrats about flying DPs and Stars. For a 200 hour instrument pilot they can be pretty daunting. Just because we possibly could do something doesnt mean we can do it well.

Look at athletes for instance. College players are top notch athletes and are faster and younger than some of the older pro athletes. How come they sit a couple seasons out before they start? Because they need to gain experience and get up to speed on how the Professionals do it. You don't go straight from HS to the NFL you have to watch and learn.

[FlySmiley]

With regards to interviews, when they start asking questions about crossing restrictions and you can calculate one quickly and accurately because you've been there and done that plenty of times I think they can tell the difference between that and you studying a gouge. When they ask about ever having a failure of equipment while flying, they'd much rather hear your stories about the time you launched into low overcast with gusty winds on a DP and your vac. sys went to lunch and how you actually dealt with the situation, not the time your instructor failed your AI in the sim and you almost balled it up. Ever had a disagreement with a co-worker?.. yep once at burger king my manager wanted me to mop the floor and I didn't want to... or, my dispatch asked me to do something against the regs and how you broke down the regs for them and got the CP involved if necessary, etc.

Ok, experiences vary, but the more time you spend in the sky the more time you have had to experience things that will make your life on the line that much easier. Experiences that show not only will you be more of an asset than a liability to your captain, but also that you possess the qualities to become a captain yourself one day and not just a radio stooge.

If picking up an IFR clearance from KBOS, KEWR, KLGA etc.. is something you don't know how to do or are intimidated by, chances are you may not be ready for a jet yet. They go fast, things happen fast, you are getting paid to have certain competencies.

That being said, an airplane is an airplane and they all do the same thing once they are in the air. You can train monkeys to fly the airplane and they could probably even pass a sim check. Don't you think you owe it to yourself and your future captains to get some experience before joining the regional ranks? The captains will teach you how to be a captain, but they shouldn't be having to teach you basic things that you should already know before submitting that application. Just my thoughts, apologies to the 250hr wonders that disagree.

[jonnyb]

Originally Posted by FSIPILOT

JonnyB, right there with ya brother. On a side note if I'm not misstaken I've seen that altimiter in a LR-31... but mine said FL510 ;-)

You son of a gun.... I haven't taken her up that high, probably never will. That's a funny post though.

[DE727UPS]

"The captains will teach you how to be a captain, but they shouldn't be having to teach you basic things that you should already know before submitting that application."

And what these people don't know is that so much of the basics don't get covered in airline training. Getting through ground school and the sim are one thing. The real world is another. There is just no substitute for experience when you get to the real world.

[Airdale]

Originally Posted by zmiller4

Argh.

You could train a monkey to pass an airline interview sim ride. It doesn't really matter--that's not really where you prove how capable a pilot you are. That happens on the job. The experience you gain as an instructor will be really, really valuable later in your career.

Umm...not that I really want to get into this low time debate, because really this is the "interview" section, but when I interviewed, 5 people passed the sim ride out of 20. You'd be surprised how many people, reguardless of their hours, just plain suck at flying instruments.

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

And what these people don't know is that so much of the basics don't get covered in airline training. Getting through ground school and the sim are one thing. The real world is another. There is just no substitute for experience when you get to the real world.

I couldn't agree with you more. My first two months online were extremely difficult. In the sim, we flew approaches at 160kts. Going into Boston, we are told very often to "keep the speed up until final". Hand flying an ILS approach at 200+kts in solid soup isn't something they prepared you for in training.

[Shamrok]

[quote=Airdale;684592]Umm...not that I really want to get into this low time debate, because really this is the "interview" section, but when I interviewed, 5 people passed the sim ride out of 20. You'd be surprised how many people, reguardless of their hours, just plain suck at flying instruments.

Thats true, at my interview recently only 6 of 21 made it. I am a low timer(410TT) and think I did pretty good considering I was one of the 6. I heard the staff talking about how many applicants including the high timers couldn't fly the sim or an ILS for that matter! It does boil down to quality of time. I instructed at a class D airport outside of BOS bravo space and it was very rewarding. And I dont think I am anywhere near Chuck Yeager. I am aware of the challenges that are ahead but confident in my abilities and know I will be a good FO. The sim seemed just like another airplane so I just flew the darn thing! If one was born to do this it will show as most of you know.

[DAS]

Originally Posted by Airdale

Umm...not that I really want to get into this low time debate, because really this is the "interview" section, but when I interviewed, 5 people passed the sim ride out of 20. You'd be surprised how many people, reguardless of their hours, just plain suck at flying instruments.

Thanks for getting this thread back on track. "Low Time Interviews"
I know lots of people wants to know about the interviews, but many low timers are afraid to talk about it, because of this debate.

[Airdale]

Originally Posted by DAS

Thanks for getting this thread back on track. "Low Time Interviews"
I know lots of people wants to know about the interviews, but many low timers are afraid to talk about it, because of this debate.

Unfortunately, certain people create an environment that makes people afraid to ask questions for fear of being attacked for being a "low timer".

I was in the military, I've worked with, been trained by, and have trained people from various walks of life.

Don't listen to anyone else. If you meet the minimums and get offered an interview, and you think you are ready - to not only successfully complete the training, but to also be an Airline pilot - then go for it. Not a single person should influence your decision on whether or not to interview or take the job. As a low timer, you may be expected to show a knowledge and skill level of someone with much more time then you. This is a good thing for you!

If you are offered a job, then it becomes your job to work your tail off to prove that you belong there. And it doesn't stop after the checkride, or after IOE. You need to prove EVERY single DAY flying the line that you deserve to be in that right seat. Sure, you may face some adversity on the line because you're a low timer - I had to face it too with certain Captains. But after said Captains allowed me to prove to them that I do belong there, they complimented me. Before you know it, you're not a "low time" guy anymore. You're a damn pilot bitchin about workin too much and gettin paid too little!

[Shamrok]

Originally Posted by Airdale

Unfortunately, certain people create an environment that makes people afraid to ask questions for fear of being attacked for being a "low timer".

I was in the military, I've worked with, been trained by, and have trained people from various walks of life.

Don't listen to anyone else. If you meet the minimums and get offered an interview, and you think you are ready - to not only successfully complete the training, but to also be an Airline pilot - then go for it. Not a single person should influence your decision on whether or not to interview or take the job. As a low timer, you may be expected to show a knowledge and skill level of someone with much more time then you. This is a good thing for you!

If you are offered a job, then it becomes your job to work your tail off to prove that you belong there. And it doesn't stop after the checkride, or after IOE. You need to prove EVERY single DAY flying the line that you deserve to be in that right seat. Sure, you may face some adversity on the line because you're a low timer - I had to face it too with certain Captains. But after said Captains allowed me to prove to them that I do belong there, they complimented me. Before you know it, you're not a "low time" guy anymore. You're a damn pilot bitchin about workin too much and gettin paid too little!

I agree completely. I laugh at the people telling me that my times are to low. It's not my fault that they needed 2000 hours to get hired years ago. It's called seize opportunity while its there! If you can do it, then do it. Its like the NFL in a way, college ball players leaving school early to go to the pro's. Why not? Why wait and snap a leg or tear your knee up during your senior year? Then your screwed. I see aviation in a similar fashion, why should I wait another year instructing if I believe that I can pass training NOW and do the job as good if not better than somone with 1500 hours. And believe me, there are plenty of 1500 hour pilots that aren't worth a damn. And most of you know that. So ease up on the low time pilot that is worth a damn!
I'm not waiting for hiring to slow to a dead stop due to terrorism or economic recession and then have people say " you should have gotten in when the mins were down". I'm not idiot, waiting is a choice that is different for everyone. Sit on the sidelines or get in the game? Hmmmm. If your a low timer and think your ready to move on with your career then don't wait or let someone talk you out of it, the nay sayers all have their opinions which is fine, but most had to wait until they had much more than 500 hours and will tell you how unsafe you are and all the other yata yata yata. If you can't do it you'll be sent home and end up working nights at Home Depot. If you can do it, you won't regret it. Bring on the flames!