Ameriflight

[TheWife]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry but I think you're an idiot.

[/ QUOTE ] And I think you are immature. Don't give an apology and then follow it with an insult. Just because you feel like you are beating a dead horse when some one doesn't agree with your advice doesn't make it ok to just call names. Wow, very grade school. Like I said before-don't get so frustrated, just laugh about it and move on.

[AnotherWife]

Yes, unsolicited. Advice on whether or not to PFT was never sought. Everyone gave it anyway, and that's fine. Most of it was quite an interesting read. But don't get so offended when people don't halt in their tracks and change course because you disagree with their choices.

[Ophir]

[ QUOTE ]
Unsolicited? What? I'm sorry but I think you're an idiot. Please don't share his experience because I'm pretty sure most (not all) of us don't care. I know reading this seems like I'm "all worked up", but I'm not. I just can't stand to read this crap anymore, so I'll move on to another topic.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry JonnyB, you are out of line. AnotherWife is right. This thread has gone awry with angry messages aimed at a guy who wasn't looking to delve into the discussion on the ethical nature of PFT. A post like yours only derails and confuses a topic such as this. If you can't post without flaming then use your number one liberty on this site, don't post.

Going back to all the posts, it has been the pros who have been the most pursuasive becuase they are not calling Phatty anything, they are simply giving him advice.

I would have loved this thread to have turned into a discussion between people who have PFTed and those who haven't. Too bad the flamers have kept away the former.

[EatSleepFly]

[ QUOTE ]
Why do you guys get your panties all in a wad when someone doesn't fall lockstep behind your unsolicited advice?

[/ QUOTE ]

And that right there should tell you something. There are, by my count, 15 pilots currently employed flying professionally (Airline, Cargo, Charter, CFI, etc.) repeatedly contributing to this thread to tell you that its a bad idea.

Between these 15 pilots, how many hours of combined flight time do you think there are? 50,000+ probably. How many combined years of experience? In the hundreds, I'm sure. How many people do these 15 people know? As small as the aviation world is, A LOT. How many interviews have we all been through? Quite a few, no doubt. How many of these people did the PFT/PFE thing? Zero. As far as I know, every one of us "wasted our time" instructing (some of us still are) to get where we are. So far in this thread I have yet to hear one, real, true success story from someone who did PFE/PFT. Anyone want to speak up? Anyone? Thats right- crickets. That doesn't tell you something?

When you get such a resounding answer from 15 professional pilots and choose to completely ignore it? What do you expect? Everyone may have given you unsolicited advice, but tough [expletive deleted]. This whole website is full of unsolicited advice, which is great because the amount of experience available here.

So go ahead, do your own thing. Its not going to affect me one tiny bit. Not now, and not someday in the future when someone hands me a resume and I see "Ameriflight" or "Gulfstream" on it, and whisk it into the circular file.

P.S.- Have fun getting your CFI and flying around in a 172 with your cool 200 hrs. of turbine time after you finish this program. What a letdown thats gonna be- sure would suck.

[TheWife]

If any of you could discuss this topic in a way that you are just passing along your opinion and insight, then at some point it might be well received. When people are already decided on something, the best thing you can do is say "that's great, but did you consider....." Do you really think calling people names, saying you are dumbfounded, etc. is going to have any kind of positive effect on the person you are trying to "help"? You also need to understand that if people always took all the advice they were given, nothing would ever change or improve. If we all did exactly what our parents told us to do a lot of us would have quite different lives. Some better, some worse. Don't take it so personally when someone doesn't say "holy crap I see the light, you have saved me from the evil path I was on oh thank you mighty wise one." I am NOT discounting the wisdom and experience that you all have. I KNOW you have BTDT and have great insight about many things. But I also know that it is human nature to be defensive when some one insults you, and to find your own path based on the guidance from others and your own feelings, and not to conform to exactly what every one tells you to do. You all told my husband to forget flight schools and stick to the FBO. Well we tried to go to a flight school but it didn't work out, not because we didn't want it to. So, here he is, at the FBO, four months later, with a whole whopping 20 more hours then he had four months ago. I am glad that he is here because it didn't work and not because we listened to your advice. If we had just said forget FSI and stuck to the FBO at your suggestion-I'd feel like we shouldn't have listened and we'd never know what might have been. So no matter how wise or insightful any of you are, your answers aren't right for everyone. And there is nothing wrong with that!!!

[Ophir]

Cool down ESF. The delivery of your message with a more temperate tone would be far more effective. I totally respect your position but go easy.

[TheWife]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone want to speak up? Anyone? Thats right- crickets. That doesn't tell you something?


[/ QUOTE ] That tells me that they don't want to get involved in discussions in which no wins and no one is wright or wrong. My husband HAS talked to people who pft'd and it worked, just because they are represented in this specific discussion does not make the other 15 people the law.

[EatSleepFly]

My apologies for coming across that way.

[ QUOTE ]
That tells me that they don't want to get involved in discussions in which no wins and no one is wright or wrong. My husband HAS talked to people who pft'd and it worked, just because they are represented in this specific discussion does not make the other 15 people the law.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't buy that. And do not put words in my mouth, I didn't say that anyone is the law. I've met a few PFT'ers and they are typically super-quick to justify what they've done.


In any case, I'm with jonnyb. I'm done with this thread. I can't believe how much time I've wasted reading/posting in it.

[TheWife]

I agree Ophir. I actually have some pretty uneasy feelings about PFT, and I agree that it could be bad for the industry. I just don't agree with the way people are treating each other here. I guess I should give up on my campaign to convince people to be nice to each other.

[A300Capt]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm going to be flying with this company (PFT) in a Metroliner III.

[/ QUOTE ]

AnotherWife,

The mere fact that the original post seemed to proudly display (PFT) in the very first sentence was a slap in the face to those of us who have been in the flying business and have seen it erode over the years with schemes like this. Why was "PFT" even mentioned. That very term is a spark of controversy.

The seemingly naiveté of one's understanding of how PFT's long term effects continues to erode the aviation profession while ignoring the solicited advice of those already in the profession goes against what I consider good judgment.

The original post ask for comments or suggestions concerning Amerflight or training. Great, my suggestion would be to not PFT. If that goes unheeded..well, about the training, study hard because the Metro III was one of the most difficult aircraft I ever learned to fly.

As I said before, it's your money and life. The outcome won't have any bearing on my life or my family's, nor will I lose any sleep worrying about it. In fact, this is my last word on the subject and all I can say is a very sincere..."Good luck!" I truly hope it all works out in this person's favor.

[TheWife]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't buy that. And do not put words in my mouth, I didn't say that anyone is the law

[/ QUOTE ] I didn't put words in your mouth, I gave you my opinion of what you said.

A300 I appreciate your input and the way it was stated! Thank you! ( I think Phatty was clueless about using the term PFT or he probably wouldn't have included it )

[DE727UPS]

"I am confused as to why you guys won't either answer the question that was asked or else stay off the topic because every chance you get you jump in with the anti-pft thing."

We answered his question. Exactly how is it that you think we didn't? The only more accurate answers he could have got, in my opinion, would be from someone who has done the Amflight program and it seems no one on the board has or will admit to it. And....he used the words PFT is his short, very specific, first post. How is it that we shouldn't comment on how we feel about PFT if he mentions PFT is his post?

[TheWife]

If everyone would just state their opinion nicely, I don't think any one would have a problem listening. If you know this topic is going to upset you and cause you to swear at people or call them names etc. then stay off the topic. That's all I was trying to say. And his question WASN'T "should I go to a PFT"

[Doug Taylor]

I think it's a classic example of "If you can't handle the answer, best not ask the question".

I really didn't create the website as a warm comfortable blanket of reassurance, but more or less an environment where you're going to get the 'straight dope' right from industry professionals.

People involved in PFT/PFE schemes do not cost, nor earn me a single cent of revenue. I have no financial, or egotistical advantage to suggest or dissuade a person from doing such; despite someone insinuating that people that don't value such programs are somehow envious of the fact they didn't have the money to do so.

Still trying to figure that one out...

But if you come to a website set up as a forum of sorts of people seeking information from those in positions to offer valid, useable information gleaned by experience, you're not always going to get the answer you're seeking.

Here's a purely 'hypothetical' scenario:

If A300CPT sparks a thread about being PIC of a large transport category jet, I'm going to listen to what he has to say. because he's where I'd eventually want to be. I may not agree with everything he may speak about the subject, but knowing how little I knew of aviation ten years ago, and understanding how much more I have to learn, I'm probably going to try my best to understand why I don't agree.

[DE727UPS]

Since you responded to me directly...show me where I swore at anyone or called anyone names? I try really hard not to do that...

As far as being "nice"....one's persons nice will piss the next person off. What's your definition of "nice"? I'd say we should leave out the name calling and swearing but that's really the moderator's call...not your's or mine...and in the end, if we don't like the tone of this website we are free to not come here....

[Ophir]

Totally agree on all counts Doug. However, you have to admit that advice can delievered in a variety of different ways. For me, I really dislike the flame advice. If someone tells me something and says, I am an idiot, I most likely will not give that person the credit he/she may deserve.

All of us are really enthusiastic about aviation here, no doubt. But we all should be aware how our enthusiasm comes off. As a disclaimer to that statement, I must once again admit that I am a product of this site more than you know. I have listened and respected so much from so many. This place is amazing, keep up the great advice.

I am confident of one thing, Phatty will consider the advice he has recieved her for sometime to come, no matter the outcome.

[TheWife]

I was being general, I didn't mean YOU specifically. Being nice was simply a suggestion for those who use insults for their arguments but are puzzled about why no one's listening.

[Doug Taylor]

I missed the idiot comment but will take a peek.

This whole thread went postal so quick, it was a little hard to keep up!

Pay Per View: "Jetcareers GONE WILD!"

[DE727UPS]

"If someone tells me something and says, I am an idiot, I most likely will not give that person the credit he/she may deserve."

If someone calls you and idiot...they don't deserve any credit...

[Ophir]

[ QUOTE ]
"If someone tells me something and says, I am an idiot, I most likely will not give that person the credit he/she may deserve."

If someone calls you and idiot...they don't deserve any credit...

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point.

[Doug Taylor]

That actually might be a good idea. An end-of-the-year recap of the years hottest threads.

Ooh!

[SteveC]

Doug, why do you think that we haven't heard from anyone who went through Gulfstream or Ameriflight? I would think that they would want to tell what their experiences were, good or bad, both during the program and the long-term ramifications. I mean really, if someone thought that the program advanced their career, they could post that...as well as someone who regrets it and thinks that it hurt them. I can see someone wanting to remain anonymous, what with the level of feelings about this, but that's easy enough to do in a forum like this.
Inquiring minds want to know...

[Doug Taylor]

To be completely honest, we had one guy a couple years ago that claimed to have gone to Gulfstream and worksfor a Northwest Airlink carrier.

Privately, I tried to confirm who he was and if he was actually a "send over" (as I like to call them) from Gulfstream, but he got extraodinarily 'stealthy' and strange.

I've got pals at most of the airlines and sometimes I dig around a little if I think something sounds a little fishy, just for the health of the website.

Of course, he disappeared.

I haven't had a 'send over' for quite a while now, so I bet we're overdue.

[RPM]

[ QUOTE ]
Unsolicited? What? I'm sorry but I think you're an idiot. Please don't share his experience because I'm pretty sure most (not all) of us don't care. I know reading this seems like I'm "all worked up", but I'm not. I just can't stand to read this crap anymore, so I'll move on to another topic.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I may not be for the program - but I would still be very interested to see how it goes for them

Anotherwife, Phatty - please update us on your progress, some of us would be interested

[AnotherWife]

[ QUOTE ]

AnotherWife,

The mere fact that the original post seemed to proudly display (PFT) in the very first sentence was a slap in the face to those of us who have been in the flying business and have seen it erode over the years with schemes like this. Why was "PFT" even mentioned. That very term is a spark of controversy.

[/ QUOTE ]
Phatty apologized for his naivete early on. He didn't know mentioning PFT was going to get everyone going like this. It's understandable if you missed his post, since this thread has been a train wreck from the beginning, but here it is:

[ QUOTE ]
I guess I struck a chord with your membership that I didn't mean to. I had no clue this isn't how you're supposed to gain experience.

[/ QUOTE ]
I realize you don't know Phatty at all, since this was virtually his first post here, but he would never intentionally offend anyone. Look back at his responses to everyone and you'll see he never responded in kind when he was being flamed.

I've always found this site and its users to be a great source of information, but I wish people with unpopular opinions/questions/topics weren't torn apart by other users. Differing opinions can be presented respectfully, and hopefully people will come to understand that when someone has a different opinion from yours it doesn't mean they don't value your viewpoint. But, the flaming? It really degrades what is otherwise a terrific site.