Upgrade times...

Cherokee_Cruiser · June 2nd, 2003, 11:08

For most major airlines, I've read upgrade time to Captain anywhere from 5 to 8/9 years. However, I think from a thread in this forum a long time ago, stated that AE ERJ Capt. upgrade time was 10 years !?!?

Doug... Just curious, is there any upgrades available or in the near future, now that you are approaching 6 years with DAL?

Doug Taylor · June 2nd, 2003, 11:18

Well it ebbs and flows.

Before 9/11, I would have been a line-holding 737-200 captain in MCO and roughly approx. 300 pilots away from MD-88 captain in NYC. In the near future, there are absolutely no upgrade opportunities to captain at all.

I'm just happy not being on the street nowadays.

I go to work, get paid, come home and work on my evil, diabolical plans of taking over the world!

pilot602 · June 2nd, 2003, 11:23

[ QUOTE ]
and work on my evil, diabolical plans of taking over the world!

[/ QUOTE ]

So you're the one that keeps faxing us those damned "work from home" flyers that offer $1 meeeelion dollars worth of extra income per week. Damn you!

Doug Taylor · June 2nd, 2003, 11:30

[ QUOTE ]
So you're the one that keeps faxing us those damned "work from home" flyers that offer $1 meeeelion dollars worth of extra income per week. Damn you!

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh yeah!

I'm building an army of evil dwarves to do my bidding as well!

pilot602 · June 2nd, 2003, 11:37

You should get in contact with the underpants gnomes ... those little suckers are evil.

A320_DUDE · June 2nd, 2003, 11:46

[ QUOTE ]
You should get in contact with the underpants gnomes ... those little suckers are evil.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't you mean the socks gnomes?

Back to subject though......At SWA upgrades are running at 5 years and at JBlu upgrades are running at 2.5 years with the possbility of going down to 1 year if our we continue to grow at the rate Dave has projected. Not to shabby if you ask me!

av8sean · June 2nd, 2003, 11:59

Doug -- how does 737-200CA seniority compare to international 767/777 FO seniority? (Obviously I hope to fly international routes someday.. )

Or in otherwords, how many years to fly international?

-Sean

Doug Taylor · June 2nd, 2003, 12:32

[ QUOTE ]
Doug -- how does 737-200CA seniority compare to international 767/777 FO seniority? (Obviously I hope to fly international routes someday.. )

Or in otherwords, how many years to fly international?

-Sean

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the most junior 777 FO has 10 years of seniority, whereas the most junior 737-200 FO has about 9 or so.

I'm probably wrong as those are "off the top of the head" estimations.

Sometimes you'll see FO's that are more senior than their captains, just because people bid certain aircraft for personal reasons, and the specific seat for a whole list of other purposes.

One of my pals just retired as an MD-88 Captain. He could have held ATL 767-International captain, but had far more seniority in DFW on the MD-88 than he'd have as an ATL 767-Int captain.

More time at home, less time commuting and really didn't think the big increase in money was worth going to school the last few years of his career.

After a few years at the airlines, TRAINING SUCKS! AAAAAAAAARGH!

Some people chase money and sit deep reserve as captains. Some people chase seniority by bidding "junior" aircraft in "junior" bases.

Other people chase the lifestyle and bid equipment in bases where they want to raise a family.

Other people want to fly jets for notoriety. One of my captains in 737 school had a 707/720 (AF KC-135), 727, 737, 757/767 types with NO McDonnnel Douglas equipment.

Some people, like the last of our 727 "drivers" were simply in love with the airframe and some "downbid" to FO just to stay with the jet.

10,000 pilots, well, maybe about 8,700 after Leo's furloughs, all have 10,000 (well 8,700) different reasons for flying what they fly.

DE727UPS · June 2nd, 2003, 15:21

"Some people, like the last of our 727 "drivers" were simply in love with the airframe and some "downbid" to FO just to stay with the jet."

You gotta be kidding me, I've never heard of that before. The 727's a sweet jet but I don't like it that much. I've stayed on it as we have downsized the fleet, and crews, because I'm senior enough to hold a couple of very easy trips. Once those trips are gone, I'm off to 757 F/O school. A year to learn the airplane and I'll upgrade to the left seat if I can hold some good trips.

I was part of a "backward" crew the other day. The most junior guy was the captain, who was flying a senior trip as a reserve. I was senior to the captain but was the F/O cause I'm too lazy to upgrade. The S/O was senior to all of us but was over 60 years old so he took the downgrade to the F/E panel rather than retire. The company is paying those guys about 100K a year to sit in the back seat. You'd think it would make more sense for them to come up with some sort of incentive to get them to retire...

MikeD · June 2nd, 2003, 15:47

10 years to upgrade?

Makes me glad for :

No worry's about upgrading.

No logging SIC.

No crew

mrivc211 · June 2nd, 2003, 21:06

I was in line at the COLOSSEO in ROMA and the person standing behind me was a FO for Northwest with his family on vacation. He was telling me that he passed up bids for upgrade to captain because he liked his seniority of working when ever and where ever he wanted.
At the time it seemed like a dumb idea but now that I think of it, if my wife was making decent money as well as myself, it wouldnt be a bad idea to not break my back trying to make captain.
Plus I ran into a captain for another major a while back and he said if you pass up a bid for upgrade to captain something bad happens or your not allowed. I forget which airline it is.

FlyChicaga · June 3rd, 2003, 10:12

At the airline I did my internship with (121 regional), I know a few guys who upgraded in 16 months. Hired December 2001, upgraded May 2003. That is 16 months right?

That's just because the company is losing pilots to it's major airline brother and close relative in the "low-cost" carrier market.

Bob_Beziat · June 4th, 2003, 15:04

[ QUOTE ]

I think the most junior 777 FO has 10 years of seniority, whereas the most junior 737-200 FO has about 9 or so.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doug

After almost 7 years of being captain on the 727, MD88, and 737 I can't hold it anymore. I also can't hold F/O on the 777, MD11, or 767-400. I'm supposed to go to 767ER F/O training in August.

I came over from Pan Am and was mixed in with the April 1991 new-hires. I think the junior captain at Delta was hired in the fall of 1990.

It could be worse:I think the bottom F/O's at USAir were hired in 1987 or 1988.

I hope I can get a captain bid again before I retire in 1-1/2 years!!

Bob

Doug Taylor · June 4th, 2003, 23:36

[ QUOTE ]

Doug

After almost 7 years of being captain on the 727, MD88, and 737 I can't hold it anymore. I also can't hold F/O on the 777, MD11, or 767-400. I'm supposed to go to 767ER F/O training in August.

I came over from Pan Am and was mixed in with the April 1991 new-hires. I think the junior captain at Delta was hired in the fall of 1990.

It could be worse:I think the bottom F/O's at USAir were hired in 1987 or 1988.

I hope I can get a captain bid again before I retire in 1-1/2 years!!

Bob

[/ QUOTE ]

Awesome!

Nothing like information from the "horses mouth".

Not that I'm calling you a horse, but you know what I mean!

Hey Bob, are you still at Tab Express? Maybe I'll drop by during a layover or something.

Alchemy · June 4th, 2003, 23:43

When you were in Rome Mrivc? I was there wednesday-monday of last week. First time I've been, pretty nice, but too crowded, plus I can't speak a bit of italian. Can't complain about the transportation though, 5 euro subway ticket lasts all week and the busses were free.

gay_pilot18 · June 5th, 2003, 01:50

Doug,

Delta recently retired there entire fleet of B-727-200's to the desert due to there age and there old fuel thirsty jet engines. Well the 737-200 airframe is just as old as the 727's and they have the same old fuel thirsty JT8D engines. So then why isn't Delta actively trying to retire those planes to the desert, and buying maybe 737-700's to replace them and the old 737-300?

Hey just a thought....

Bob_Beziat · June 5th, 2003, 07:51

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Bob, are you still at Tab Express? Maybe I'll drop by during a layover or something.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doug

Yeah, I'm still teaching there. Instructing at TAB Express is going to be my "retirement" job.

Do you DFW guys do DAB layovers???

If you get one, give me a call - will go up in the Pitts and pull some G's and get inverted!!!!! We'll fly over to DED and drop in at TAB and take a look at the flight school.

Bob

Mr_Creepy · June 5th, 2003, 11:04

Bob I saw an ad saying TAB was looking for instructors.

I applied on line, sent a resume and tried to call - no response whatsoever.

I have extensive King Air time and I live in nearby Orlando. How do you knock on the door politely?

Thanks,
JT

Bob_Beziat · June 5th, 2003, 11:18

[ QUOTE ]
Bob I saw an ad saying TAB was looking for instructors.

I applied on line, sent a resume and tried to call - no response whatsoever....

[/ QUOTE ]

John

I'll check and be in touch.

Bob

June 2nd, 2003, 11:08	#1
Cherokee_Cruiser Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 1,419	Upgrade times... For most major airlines, I've read upgrade time to Captain anywhere from 5 to 8/9 years. However, I think from a thread in this forum a long time ago, stated that AE ERJ Capt. upgrade time was 10 years !?!? Doug... Just curious, is there any upgrades available or in the near future, now that you are approaching 6 years with DAL?

June 2nd, 2003, 11:18	#2
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 40,225 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Upgrade times... Well it ebbs and flows. Before 9/11, I would have been a line-holding 737-200 captain in MCO and roughly approx. 300 pilots away from MD-88 captain in NYC. In the near future, there are absolutely no upgrade opportunities to captain at all. I'm just happy not being on the street nowadays. I go to work, get paid, come home and work on my evil, diabolical plans of taking over the world!

June 2nd, 2003, 11:23	#3
pilot602 Old Skool Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: who haa Posts: 3,750	Re: Upgrade times... [ QUOTE ] and work on my evil, diabolical plans of taking over the world! [/ QUOTE ] So you're the one that keeps faxing us those damned "work from home" flyers that offer $1 meeeelion dollars worth of extra income per week. Damn you!

June 2nd, 2003, 11:30	#4
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 40,225 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Upgrade times... [ QUOTE ] So you're the one that keeps faxing us those damned "work from home" flyers that offer $1 meeeelion dollars worth of extra income per week. Damn you! [/ QUOTE ] Oh yeah! I'm building an army of evil dwarves to do my bidding as well!

June 2nd, 2003, 11:37	#5
pilot602 Old Skool Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: who haa Posts: 3,750	Re: Upgrade times... You should get in contact with the underpants gnomes ... those little suckers are evil.

June 2nd, 2003, 11:46	#6
A320_DUDE Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Hartford,CT Posts: 203	Re: Upgrade times... [ QUOTE ] You should get in contact with the underpants gnomes ... those little suckers are evil. [/ QUOTE ] Don't you mean the socks gnomes? Back to subject though......At SWA upgrades are running at 5 years and at JBlu upgrades are running at 2.5 years with the possbility of going down to 1 year if our we continue to grow at the rate Dave has projected. Not to shabby if you ask me!

June 2nd, 2003, 11:59	#7
av8sean Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Toronto/DTW Posts: 482	Re: Upgrade times... Doug -- how does 737-200CA seniority compare to international 767/777 FO seniority? (Obviously I hope to fly international routes someday.. ) Or in otherwords, how many years to fly international? -Sean

June 2nd, 2003, 12:32	#8
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 40,225 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Upgrade times... [ QUOTE ] Doug -- how does 737-200CA seniority compare to international 767/777 FO seniority? (Obviously I hope to fly international routes someday.. ) Or in otherwords, how many years to fly international? -Sean [/ QUOTE ] I think the most junior 777 FO has 10 years of seniority, whereas the most junior 737-200 FO has about 9 or so. I'm probably wrong as those are "off the top of the head" estimations. Sometimes you'll see FO's that are more senior than their captains, just because people bid certain aircraft for personal reasons, and the specific seat for a whole list of other purposes. One of my pals just retired as an MD-88 Captain. He could have held ATL 767-International captain, but had far more seniority in DFW on the MD-88 than he'd have as an ATL 767-Int captain. More time at home, less time commuting and really didn't think the big increase in money was worth going to school the last few years of his career. After a few years at the airlines, TRAINING SUCKS! AAAAAAAAARGH! Some people chase money and sit deep reserve as captains. Some people chase seniority by bidding "junior" aircraft in "junior" bases. Other people chase the lifestyle and bid equipment in bases where they want to raise a family. Other people want to fly jets for notoriety. One of my captains in 737 school had a 707/720 (AF KC-135), 727, 737, 757/767 types with NO McDonnnel Douglas equipment. Some people, like the last of our 727 "drivers" were simply in love with the airframe and some "downbid" to FO just to stay with the jet. 10,000 pilots, well, maybe about 8,700 after Leo's furloughs, all have 10,000 (well 8,700) different reasons for flying what they fly.

June 2nd, 2003, 15:21	#9
DE727UPS Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 6,514	Re: Upgrade times... "Some people, like the last of our 727 "drivers" were simply in love with the airframe and some "downbid" to FO just to stay with the jet." You gotta be kidding me, I've never heard of that before. The 727's a sweet jet but I don't like it that much. I've stayed on it as we have downsized the fleet, and crews, because I'm senior enough to hold a couple of very easy trips. Once those trips are gone, I'm off to 757 F/O school. A year to learn the airplane and I'll upgrade to the left seat if I can hold some good trips. I was part of a "backward" crew the other day. The most junior guy was the captain, who was flying a senior trip as a reserve. I was senior to the captain but was the F/O cause I'm too lazy to upgrade. The S/O was senior to all of us but was over 60 years old so he took the downgrade to the F/E panel rather than retire. The company is paying those guys about 100K a year to sit in the back seat. You'd think it would make more sense for them to come up with some sort of incentive to get them to retire...

June 2nd, 2003, 15:47	#10
MikeD Administrator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pinal Airpark Posts: 6,897	Re: Upgrade times... 10 years to upgrade? Makes me glad for : No worry's about upgrading. No logging SIC. No crew

June 2nd, 2003, 21:06	#11
mrivc211 Old Skool Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 2,033	Re: Upgrade times... I was in line at the COLOSSEO in ROMA and the person standing behind me was a FO for Northwest with his family on vacation. He was telling me that he passed up bids for upgrade to captain because he liked his seniority of working when ever and where ever he wanted. At the time it seemed like a dumb idea but now that I think of it, if my wife was making decent money as well as myself, it wouldnt be a bad idea to not break my back trying to make captain. Plus I ran into a captain for another major a while back and he said if you pass up a bid for upgrade to captain something bad happens or your not allowed. I forget which airline it is.

June 3rd, 2003, 10:12	#12
FlyChicaga Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 4,783	Re: Upgrade times... At the airline I did my internship with (121 regional), I know a few guys who upgraded in 16 months. Hired December 2001, upgraded May 2003. That is 16 months right? That's just because the company is losing pilots to it's major airline brother and close relative in the "low-cost" carrier market.

June 4th, 2003, 15:04	#13
Bob_Beziat Newbie Join Date: May 2003 Location: Daytona Beach, FL Posts: 10	Re: Upgrade times... [ QUOTE ] I think the most junior 777 FO has 10 years of seniority, whereas the most junior 737-200 FO has about 9 or so. [/ QUOTE ] Doug After almost 7 years of being captain on the 727, MD88, and 737 I can't hold it anymore. I also can't hold F/O on the 777, MD11, or 767-400. I'm supposed to go to 767ER F/O training in August. I came over from Pan Am and was mixed in with the April 1991 new-hires. I think the junior captain at Delta was hired in the fall of 1990. It could be worse:I think the bottom F/O's at USAir were hired in 1987 or 1988. I hope I can get a captain bid again before I retire in 1-1/2 years!! Bob

June 4th, 2003, 23:36	#14
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 40,225 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Upgrade times... [ QUOTE ] Doug After almost 7 years of being captain on the 727, MD88, and 737 I can't hold it anymore. I also can't hold F/O on the 777, MD11, or 767-400. I'm supposed to go to 767ER F/O training in August. I came over from Pan Am and was mixed in with the April 1991 new-hires. I think the junior captain at Delta was hired in the fall of 1990. It could be worse:I think the bottom F/O's at USAir were hired in 1987 or 1988. I hope I can get a captain bid again before I retire in 1-1/2 years!! Bob [/ QUOTE ] Awesome! Nothing like information from the "horses mouth". Not that I'm calling you a horse, but you know what I mean! Hey Bob, are you still at Tab Express? Maybe I'll drop by during a layover or something.

June 4th, 2003, 23:43	#15
Alchemy Old Skool Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Austin, TX, USA Posts: 1,747	Re: Upgrade times... When you were in Rome Mrivc? I was there wednesday-monday of last week. First time I've been, pretty nice, but too crowded, plus I can't speak a bit of italian. Can't complain about the transportation though, 5 euro subway ticket lasts all week and the busses were free.

June 5th, 2003, 01:50	#16
gay_pilot18 Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Cincinnati/Mason OH. (CVG) Posts: 241	Re: Upgrade times... Doug, Delta recently retired there entire fleet of B-727-200's to the desert due to there age and there old fuel thirsty jet engines. Well the 737-200 airframe is just as old as the 727's and they have the same old fuel thirsty JT8D engines. So then why isn't Delta actively trying to retire those planes to the desert, and buying maybe 737-700's to replace them and the old 737-300? Hey just a thought....

June 5th, 2003, 07:51	#17
Bob_Beziat Newbie Join Date: May 2003 Location: Daytona Beach, FL Posts: 10	Re: Upgrade times... [ QUOTE ] Hey Bob, are you still at Tab Express? Maybe I'll drop by during a layover or something. [/ QUOTE ] Doug Yeah, I'm still teaching there. Instructing at TAB Express is going to be my "retirement" job. Do you DFW guys do DAB layovers??? If you get one, give me a call - will go up in the Pitts and pull some G's and get inverted!!!!! We'll fly over to DED and drop in at TAB and take a look at the flight school. Bob

June 5th, 2003, 11:04	#18
Mr_Creepy Old Skool Join Date: May 2003 Location: In the O-zone Posts: 5,807	Re: Upgrade times... Bob I saw an ad saying TAB was looking for instructors. I applied on line, sent a resume and tried to call - no response whatsoever. I have extensive King Air time and I live in nearby Orlando. How do you knock on the door politely? Thanks, JT

June 5th, 2003, 11:18	#19
Bob_Beziat Newbie Join Date: May 2003 Location: Daytona Beach, FL Posts: 10	Re: Upgrade times... [ QUOTE ] Bob I saw an ad saying TAB was looking for instructors. I applied on line, sent a resume and tried to call - no response whatsoever.... [/ QUOTE ] John I'll check and be in touch. Bob

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