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April 1st, 2006, 21:17
| #26 | ||
| Senior Member  Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 523
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April 1st, 2006, 21:26
| #27 | |
| Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Winchestertonfieldville
Posts: 6,240
| Quote:
Here are some numbers for your crazy take on doctors salaries based on first year earnings - Oral Surgeon $125K (my brother made over $225K his first year) GP $128k Derm $160K Peds $125K Anes $160K Ortho $200K Vascular $190K Oh yeah, and you can buy a paralegal degree on line through a home study course. Nice try.
__________________ The simplest answer tends to be correct. | |
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April 1st, 2006, 21:40
| #28 | |
| Old Skool  Join Date: May 2005 Location: Dirty Jerzey
Posts: 2,016
| Quote:
If I wanted to be a rich upper class man in society I sure wouldn't be training for a job flying in the airlines thats for sure. But I'll tell you what, I used to make $30k working at an auto garage, and making $25k starting at an airline sure sounds like a better deal. At least I won't be covered in oil, sweating my ass off in an unairconditioned garage dealing with a cranky old man who thinks I don't know where an oil filter goes. Its all relative. I guess if you grew up with money hanging out of your back pockets than you certainly wouldn't want to accept life as a pilot with the current pay scales. Now that doesn't mean I want to make $30k the rest of my life, but you've gotta start somewhere. I'm a person who constantly strives to better myself, and my goals don't stop at the regionals. I'll work as hard as I can for that flying job I dream of. Glass half-full or half-empty? | |
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April 2nd, 2006, 11:44
| #29 | |||||||
| Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: NY
Posts: 120
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Just for your information regarding money matters, it could take you at least 5 years to upgrade to Captain. So let's take Pinnacle's pay scale for the first 5 years you'll be a FO. You'll take home $128,520 gross after 5 years based on guarantee pay, no per diem considered (which shouldn't be considered income anyway). Let's say you find yourself a $50K a year job. You'll make $250,000 in the same 5 years...and get to see your girlfriend/wife/significant other every night. Something to think about and look deeper into. | |||||||
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April 2nd, 2006, 12:12
| #30 | |
| Newbie Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 16
| Quote:
Last edited by ifly; April 2nd, 2006 at 12:33. | |
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April 2nd, 2006, 13:38
| #31 | |
| Banned Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 7,329
| Quote:
From this, you will see a clear dichotomy in the types of individuals involved in aviation. 1) The hard working, eyes-on-the-prize type of people (a bulk of the people on JC are this) 2) The entitlement crowd, who has always gotten what they want, and damnit, they deserve it. These types of people are the ones bound to have a "woe is me" complex and complain nonstop. These are often the same pilots who do stupid/risky things in the airplane. | |
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April 2nd, 2006, 19:16
| #32 | |
| Old Skool Join Date: May 2005 Location: Dirty Jerzey
Posts: 2,016
| Quote:
On the same note, I have to do this. I have to at least try to get that dream job. I understand the many different paths this career can take, and I'm ready to accept whichever life throws at me. But rest assured I will do everything in my power to achieve my goals, and in the end if I end up taking over the floor business, I'll still have all of my ratings, including CFI, to instruct on the weekends and fly for fun. So my training is not a total waste. | |
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April 2nd, 2006, 23:54
| #33 | |
| Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Winchestertonfieldville
Posts: 6,240
| Quote:
The fact is everyone that chose to fly as a career did it because they love aviation. Unfortunately the love of aviation and jets doesnt always pay the bills.
__________________ The simplest answer tends to be correct. | |
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April 5th, 2006, 10:56
| #34 |
| Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Winchester, VA (OKV)
Posts: 256
| You've really done a lot of thinking on this, but I wanted to share my insights having been in a somewhat similar situation and totally understanding your disgust with corporate America. I came to the flying vs. doing something to else with higher earnings at two earlier points in my life when I could have made it. Both times I chose the non flying path. Part of that was due to my own desire to "stand on my own" as quickly as I could, and part was because I grew up in a family that didn't really support "following your dreams", and had a more practical "Go to college" kind of focus. Also, my fathers company was failing at the time I completed HS, so I worked for a couple of years saving for college and didn't feel I could ask them to help with following a dream to fly. After a couple of years of saving, plus what my folks could pay, plus some financial help from my older brothers and sisters, plus student loans, plus ROTC and Army Reserve pay, I was able to complete my undergraduate degree and start working, as my parents expected. The path I chose allowed me to become a private pilot and eventually become a partner in a plane. I later completed my MBA, became a sole owner of an airplane and climbed the corporate ladder to management in the telco industry, only to have my employer go bankrupt and RIF me 3 years ago at the age of 42. Lesson: There are no guarantees in life. Taking the "more conservative" road can still land you in "employment hell". So, even though a chance of a career as an airline pilot was a huge longshot in my case, I decided to use part of my severence and go to an accelerated CFI program. I got the CFI/CFII in about 30 days on top of the 400+ hours I'd accumulated as a PP. When I got home from CFI school, I was hired (usurped?)by the local flight school before I had time to begin to search for a job in my previous field. I instructed full time for for about 11 months earning next to nothing, and even though I loved flying every day, I increasingly felt self applied pressure. Lesson: It's very hard to take the kind of pay cut you're looking at. We were able to pretty much maintain our lifestyle but only because my wife had very good sales years in her job, earning huge bonuses that mostly made up for my lack of earnings. Even with her high income though, things had to give. Maintenence on our house and vehicles got deferred or I did it myself. When I wasn't flying, I was working on stuff that I would have hired someone to do before. I worked 6 or 7 days a week and with no money to spare we weren't able to take any vacation and my wife wasn't able to do some of the things she was invited to do with her girlfriends. I can't count the number of time I saw her decide to give up something she wanted, so that we'd have money for more basic items like the electric bill. This is different than the kind of sacrifices we made for each other starting out in our life together. My wife had already paid her dues. If you care for your wife as I do mine, that will start to sting you, even though you know they support your decsion. If you follow in my footsteps, I warn you these things will wear on you in ways you may not expect. As others have said, at some point flying becomes a job and when you look at what you've given up, you may start to feel you are failing personally, and failing your loved ones. So while my house was falling apart, the cars needed tires and I was watching my wife do without things she deserved, I was contemplating how I was going to take the next step. I needed a multi rating and some multi time to get myself minimally qualified for a job with a regional. Of course there was the problem of what I'd do if I got a job with a regional since there was no way we could afford for my wife to quit and go where the regional sent us. Anyway, I couldn't see where the money for the multi rating was going to come from so I was in a "Catch 22" situation anyway. We were getting by, but that was it. I desperately wanted to do the Ari-Ben or Skymates multi time building thing, but it was like I was a kid again wanting a stereo with no money to go buy it. It sucked. As this stuff was piling up, I lost my father and a family pet within a few months of each other and really found myself at a personal low point. I was finding my dream of flying for a living was incompatable with many other of my lifes goals (like eventually being able to retire). It all piled up until, I had to admit defeat and start a job search for a higher paying position. Knowing that the telco industry was where my best chance of a decent salary was, that's where I started looking again. However, as fate would have it, one of my flying aquaintences recommended me for a postion as a consultant at FAA HQ. They really liked that my background included mangement experience, an MBA and recent operational experince as a CFI and I got the job at a salary very close to what I was making before being RIF'd. Had I not taken the opportunity to work as a CFI, I probably would not have been as competitive for this job. So while it's not flying, it's "about flying" and I find myself pretty excited about what I'm doing. I still occasionally get pangs from not flying every day, but then I think about not having one student at 7AM and the next one at 6PM with no pay in between and it helps me "get over it". At your age, I'd say there is a fair chance you could land in a 121 job or some type of flying job if you are willing and able to give up what you alreay have to get there. Just remember that flying for a living demands you (and your loved ones) pay your dues and prepare yourself mentally for it to be a lot harder than you expect to go from an upper middle class lifestyle to, just maybe, just barely making it. Godspeed and Good Luck. |
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April 5th, 2006, 13:50
| #35 |
| Newbie Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 16
| Tiger815, Excellent post. I appreciate the information for several reasons. You do not bash taking either road (chase you’re flying dream or stick with Corp America). Neither road is right or wrong as each person must decide what is right for him/her. If fact, you give compelling reasons why one could/should taking either road. You bring up very very good points. I have thought long and hard about this and really want to be involved in aviation, ideally as a pilot but at least involved in the industry. I am currently putting plans together which I hope allows me to keep the day job but also prepare aggressively to obtain my CFI/CFII. I am hoping to instruct part time and prepare myself for the next step. Not sure what this step may be but I will be closer to an aviation related position. I also plan to keep loans to a minimum. That is the plan at least. I still hope to fly full time, I really do. Gaining the experience just like your story points out at worst case (and I don’t mean that to be negative) prepares me for a more aviation related position. It sounds like your situation has actually worked out. I am glad to hear you are liking your new role. It does not sound like you regret anything and I learned a thing or two from your post. I also feel others on JC should read your post to help in their aviation career decisions. Thanks again for the post and enjoy the FAA. |
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April 7th, 2006, 09:24
| #36 |
| Old Skool  Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: SYR, ABE
Posts: 2,144
| I'm a career changer. I was 32 when I gave up a very good paying job in healthcare to pursue a lifelong dream. I just got sick of dealing w/ whiney patients, insurance companies dictating medical necessity (that they have no clue about), working M - F from 8 - 6 or more....being on call, having a whole 2 weeks of vacation. In general, it just wasn't fitting my personality. No one in my family thought it was a good idea. I had finally gotten to the goal of all my education. I had a good job (so they thought) and I didn't have a risk of the company going out of business at a moments notice. But it's my life and I need to live it on my terms. So one day, I decided I was no longer going to work in healthcare! I gave my two weeks, moved to FL and started flight training. I have made many sacrifices to get where I am today. One thing I would do differently....try to borrow LESS money for the training. The pay is terrible....I was a poor student, then a poor CFI, now a poor 1 st year F/O. In fact, I've never been poorer than I am at this very moment. I never know if I'm going to have enough money to pay the bills. That being said, my loans are now coming due and I know I don't make enough to pay them. I have undergrad/ grad school debt and now flight training debt. NOT GOOD. I'm actually considering trying to get a part-time job in my previous profession just to pay bills.....not sure the schedules will work w/ one another though. However, despite all of my financial misery, I have never enjoyed working more than I do now. Mind you, it's still a job; but, it's a job that I love! There is nothing better than looking out your office window in the FL's day after day. I am living my dream and it is everything I've hoped it would be (so far). But, I'm not a bitter old line pilot who's been furloghed a couple times and taken pay-cut after pay-cut. I'm single and live w/ GF. Bottom line is if I didn't live w/ her....I'd be living at home w/ parents. Because there is no way I could afford to pay down debt/ housing and still work as a 1st year F/O. She, fortunately, makes almost 3x what I do. She's supportive of what I do.....however, she no longer enjoys her job and wants to make a change. Unfortunately, we can't afford to give up her salary at the moment. So, every day that goes by she become more resentful that she is stuck in a crappy job and I have a job I enjoy but make no money doing it. Not sure how long that'll last.?. Despite all these things. My recommendation would be for you to go for it. Just plan accordingly. Try to pay as you go and only finance a minimal amount of flight-time. It's a fine line between get done ASAP and taking years to finish your ratings. Remember, seniority is everything in an airline and the sooner you get that number, the sooner you'll upgrade, the sooner you'll be logging turbine PIC, the sooner you'll be making a liveable wage, etc....you get the point. Good luck and keep us posted w/ your progress! |
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April 12th, 2006, 16:54
| #37 |
| Newbie Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 3
| ifly, you have received some excellent responses to your initial post. I have read several, but there are too many to read. I will give you my 2 cents, for what it's worth, and I'll try to keep it brief, because these can go on forever. I was in a similar situation as you - 6 figure, corp. job. I just had to get out and live the dream. I received a job w/ a regional flying jets finally at age 33. I quit after a year and a half to get back into corporate. I was lucky enough to receive another great corporate job making about the same as when I left. Actually, my new employer felt the airline pilot thing was pretty cool. I would beg you to reconsider giving everything up to become a pilot. It eventually becomes just like any other job after a while, but you are gone all of the time. I used to get sick just looking at my suitcase waiting for me on my days off. However, if I never tried it, I would never know, and would always wonder. So, if you have the bug bad enough and just 'have' to do it, I would recommend saving as much money as possible. Buy a couple of rental units if possible. That will give you something else to think about while you are on the road while your mind goes numb. Whatever you do, don't go into debt to do it....and don't be in a hurry. I would bet that you will do it for a couple of years, and then most likely get out.....so make sure you save as much as possible before jumping in. That way, when you are ready to leave, you can buy a business or something different, so you don't have to go back to your current job. By the way, I totally understand what you mean by 'empty feeling' in your stomach. I had it big time....and now it's gone. I have no regrets. I did what I had to do to "get over it." I'll stop rambling now - hope this makes sense. |
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April 12th, 2006, 21:09
| #38 |
| Senior Member  Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Dark Side of the Rainbow, or Tucson
Posts: 1,010
| I know this post was for ifly, and even for career changers, neither of which I can say I am. But I do have to say WOW. Freakin wow! Super excellent posts! As a low time freshly minted comm. guy, this is great perspective and definitely something that I will use later on in life, and along the way. I doubt there would be any other way to get such indepth views of the real life stories and viewpoints. Ifly, I regret not being able to give you any seasoned advice, but I still wish you the best of luck with your decisions, and the group 'o guys/gals here to help you out is just phenominal! I just feel compelled to thank those same people myself. So thank you!
__________________ "Hey, at least I'm housebroken!" |
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April 13th, 2006, 13:07
| #39 |
| Newbie Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 16
| Thanks again everything. I am overwhelmed with the outstanding response and feedback. I read a post a few weeks back that said you have to read and accept the cons side of making a career change to a pilot. This is very hard to do but as numerous real life stories indicate on this thread, you’re crazy if you don't listen and think hard about it. Just an update for you. I am a bit down about dropping everything and making a drastic change. These threads have opened my eyes to the reality of it all. However, my dreams to eventually be involved in aviation and fly jets are still with me. As Astin10 points out, he has no regrets following the dream, living the dream and realizing the dream is not all he thought or wanted it to be. But, he tried and can now accept the office job again. I feel the same way. I encourage people to follow the dream and I know I still have too. I have to find out and put to bed the what ifs. However, and this is a big however, I am NOT going to take an all or nothing approach. I will go at it much slower than I had planned. This means keeping my day job for now, saving money, fly on the weekends/evenings, maybe even attending ATP'S 10-month program but try to pay cash for most of it which will require a little bit more savings and time. But, I can still fly at a local FBO and gain experience. I do want to instruct if even part time. I want to stress this is not my first choice, I want it all and I want it all now but I also enjoy our current QOL. This is my plan but each day my heart says quiet and follow your dream but my gut says, be smart about it. That damn gut thing. I hope to follow my gut. In life so far, my gut is usually right. But, I am truly unhappy at work. Either way, this approach for now gives me an acceptable alternative to quiting and flying full time. I know arguments can be made at my age, time is of the essence and I totally understand. I know I will give aviation a try, but it may be 2-4 years yet. I have set an age 40 no later than goal. I am now 35. Once again, outstanding feedback from everyone. Hats off to JC and all who posted. I hope this helps others as well. |
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April 17th, 2006, 21:48
| #40 |
| Old Skool  Join Date: May 2002 Location: South Carolina
Posts: 1,952
| IFly I am with you. I make a great living and I really wanted to become a pilot. I have chosen to not pursue aviation and stick with my pay for a while. i really enjoy having my boat and my 150 to fly when I feel like it. That said, I still wonder if I should do it. I am working on my ratings albeit very slowly. I need to get back to it full time and get them done but it can be very tough trying to maintain a family and more than full time job. R2F is to blame for my recent wondering. His thread has me wanting to get back at it. At the same time, because I didn't go into avialtion I was able to take my kids to the olympics this year. My wife and I are flying to Saratoga for a concert this year and I plan to go to a Stanley cup game. I couldn't afford any of that if I were a pilot right now. |
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April 20th, 2006, 20:43
| #41 | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Dark Side of the Rainbow, or Tucson
Posts: 1,010
| Quote:
I'm just thankful for the government that decided to make minimum wage $5.15 and somehow convince those at the "bottom" (including me) that they should be grateful for it!  
__________________ "Hey, at least I'm housebroken!" | |
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April 21st, 2006, 05:35
| #42 | |
| Old Skool  Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Inside your OODA loop
Posts: 6,722
| Quote:
Shooter's right:  IT'S ALL STAN'S FAULT
__________________ Commercial Pilot, ASEL/AMEL/IA Chief Pilot, aerial mapping company Mountain-qualified Search & Rescue/Disaster Relief Mission Pilot, Civil Air Patrol 850+ TT/25 ME B.S., Psychology, University of Utah | |
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