Do Yourself A Favor!!! About Flight Training and Respect

[Captain A]

Ok kids! I'm new to this forum but I wanted to tell you how I feel about most of programs that are out there for training. I first wanted to say that there are an abundance of good flight schools out there. However with the good comes the bad. I'm not here to badmouth really any one school in general, but I'm pretty disappointed with the knowledge of flight skills I have been seeing from pilots coming from some flight schools.
Before I get into that I'll tell you a little bit about myself. I'm a 30 yo captain with a "regional" airline. I put that in quotes because we aren't a very "regional" carrier since we fly extremely long distances in 50 seat jets. I'm also a graduate from Embry-Riddle in Daytona Beach, Florida, however I DID NOT do any of my flight training at the school for several reasons I will get into later on in this post. I have been flying since I was 13 years old because when I was 8 I knew what I wanted to do my whole life. So why am I writing this post you may ask? I'm writing it because I'm extemely disappointed in what I've been seeing going on in the training world and the false promises by flight schools that this is anything but a glamorous and or well paid career espcially in the beggining.
First of all I have to say that there are many flight academies and so fourth out there that all want the same thing from you, YOUR MONEY!! They promise you the world! Come here you'll fly a brand new Cessna 172 with a GPS moving map. Come here we have an RJ training program....ect. ect. Let me tell you something...THEY ARE MOSTLY ALL A RIP OFF!!! I'm looking at the prices and I'm in absolute aw by how much most of these schools charge for their 2006 Cessna 172s and their brand new Seminoles. First of all you do not need any of this at all. You get the same piece of paper by flying a 1986 Cessna 172P model or a Cessna 152 that has been kept up and does not have all the bells and whistles. You do not need anything but one working radio a transpoder DG and wet compass along with the other required instrumentation for VFR flight. This mean no GPS and no TCAD. All this adds up and ends up costing you more per flight hour. For your other ratings you need the same thing but maybe another radio ect for your instrument and a complex for your commercial. None of this brand new this or that, that costs $160 / hour dual!!! I cannot believe that flights school have to have brand new airplanes to teach a private pilot how to do pilotage and dead reckoning. I believe these are nothing more than distractions the student does not need and should stick to learning the basics. As far as the GPS and the instrument pilot, most airlines do not even have approval to do GPS approaches yet, however the flight schools find it necessary to teach you all about them againg burning through a student's funds. Don't do it..it is not required to complete an instrument checkride!
This next subject really burns me up the most. These flight schools that offer these regional jet courses. Let's face it guys and girls, you have 200 or 250 hours, you have no business being in a jet ! Although one flight academy I know is putting people in the right seats of RJ's with their parent "airline" company. I would honestly say, I would never get on an airplane with these 250 hour wonders in the right seat of a RJ. The pilot maybe the sharpest pilot in the world, but that does not make up for the lack of experience. To sum this whole RJ training program up, THE AIRLINE YOU GET HIRED BY WILL TEACH YOU THE WAY THEY WANT YOU TO FLY THEIR AIRCRAFT! They do not care if you learned from joe schmo how to fly an RJ, they still require you to go through their own program. So don't go for their stupid RJ training program, it's nothing but a rip off. Spend your money on something useful like multi-engine time if you have to spend the money. Better yet spend it on getting your CFI and start teaching while earning your CFII and MEI. Concentrate on learning good stick and rudder skills. I've flown with a lot of people from academies and they can't do a cross wind landing to save their life!
This leads me to the next subject and that's respect in the industry. I've flown with plenty of FOs and captains over the years. Everybody has different training routes. I can honestly say that the best pilots I have flown with did their flight training at a mom and pop's or independently owned FBO. They had a great flight instructor to help them along their journey of becoming a professional pilot. These flight schools/airlines that make you pay $25,000 to fly their airplanes while making them a profit is a disgrace to the industry. It shows very little work ethic on your part if you just "buy" your job with such companies. You know who I'm talking about!!! I can honestly say I will and never would respect those people. They are holding back the industry by doing this. It's again disgraceful to me who worked extremely hard for their certificates. SO DON'T DO IT! Also these airlines that are "bottom feeders" that like to outbid other airlines by taking 20% less in pay are going to drive this profession into the ground like they already are. Do the research and see who these airlines are so you don't get hired by one of them. They are bad news for the industry and furthermore, you'll be on welfare you're whole career with them.
The final subject is why I did not do my training at ERAU. It is because I disagree with their training program and find them above and beyond what the standard cost to students should be. I am extremely grateful for the education I recieved there but the flight training has much to be desired. This CAPT program is a total rip off....so again DON'T DO IT! Go to a state school and get a degree in something besides aviation. Don't do what I did because now I have no backup if my career comes to a sudden end. I am sure there will be some people on here that will swear that the RJ program or their $250 / hr dual aircraft got them a job, but I will be the first one to tell you that you could've cut your training costs on half and gotten the same job!

[Kristie]

Good post! Nice to have another rank and file pilot on the board! the more experienced pilots we have on here, the better we can equipt the newbie's with the right tools to succeed and bring the industry back up!!

Thank you.. and Welcome to JC!

[FlyChicaga]

Is this the same Captain A from our company boards? Good post.

[caliginousface]

but the erau admissions counselor told me so?!

[DE727UPS]

I swear I didnt' tell this guy to come here....

Nice post CaptainA. I couldn't agree with you more.

"This next subject really burns me up the most. These flight schools that offer these regional jet courses. Let's face it guys and girls, you have 200 or 250 hours, you have no business being in a jet ! Although one flight academy I know is putting people in the right seats of RJ's with their parent "airline" company. I would honestly say, I would never get on an airplane with these 250 hour wonders in the right seat of a RJ."

Whatever you do, don't go to the Flight Safety Academy forum and say this. They'll call you mean, nasty, names and say you have no idea what you are talking about.

[SoFlo]

Very interesting post...

[Captain A]

yeah guys, I can't stand these kids that waste $35k and can't fly their way out of a wet paper bag after they graduate!

[blee256]

are you an XJT capt? I am not a big fan of RJ programs or Airline transition courses either. Its a marketing ploy, and unfortunately they exist because the demand is there.

hopefully your post educated some newbies. but after a couple hundred ours of instruction, its pretty common for CFIs to get burnt out and start looking for the easy way out.

[DOUGman]

Thanks for the short story, I have a 10-year old. nephew that wants to fly and I will be mentoring him in that regard.

The first thing that I want to get him into is gliding, per FAR regs I believe a competent 12. yr old. can solo, correct me if I am wrong on that one.

Flying the 172SP's with the KLN-94 GPS is all I ever need, why do I need a large G1000 MFD/PFD to learn how to fly??

Gimmie a 152/172 thats very simple to learn from versus a glass panel thats sure to hold your eye more then it needs to be, which would be bad for VFR flight anyways.

D.

[MQAAord]

Wow.

Tell us how ya really feel

I think you'll find the great majority of us in agreement with you.

Welcome to JC. Stick around!

[Chris_Ford]

First, let me say very nice post, Captain A. I'm glad to see someone else is anti-aviation degrees too.

Originally Posted by DOUGman

Flying the 172SP's with the KLN-94 GPS is all I ever need, why do I need a large G1000 MFD/PFD to learn how to fly??

I understand that the academies have these G1000 a/c, and I'm not sure I see the point of that, but in a local FBO, the G1000 brand new Cessnas do help go after the niche of "Rich guy who wants to learn to fly for fun, and wants the best of the best, no matter what." These people think they're safety-keen because it's a new aircraft, but that's not necessarily true as there are old airplanes with meticulous maintenance. However, there are people out there who will only fly for fun, and if they're willing to pay the price, I see no issues with it.

[DE727UPS]

"per FAR regs I believe a competent 12. yr old. can solo (gliders), correct me if I am wrong"

14 to solo, 16 for private

[SierraPilot123]

Originally Posted by Chris_Ford

First, let me say very nice post, Captain A. I'm glad to see someone else is anti-aviation degrees too.


I understand that the academies have these G1000 a/c, and I'm not sure I see the point of that, but in a local FBO, the G1000 brand new Cessnas do help go after the niche of "Rich guy who wants to learn to fly for fun, and wants the best of the best, no matter what." These people think they're safety-keen because it's a new aircraft, but that's not necessarily true as there are old airplanes with meticulous maintenance. However, there are people out there who will only fly for fun, and if they're willing to pay the price, I see no issues with it.

We have both G1000's and a lot of older N model C-172s at our school. When I am given the choice, I would much rather fly the G1000 (only a few 100 hrs. on the airframe vs. thousands of hrs.), mode-s traffic alerts really help you spot traffic in the dense airspace around here, instruements that are always working, working sun-shades, working air vents.....etc. They cost the same to fly, so why not? But that is just me.

[DOUGman]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

"per FAR regs I believe a competent 12. yr old. can solo (gliders), correct me if I am wrong"

14 to solo, 16 for private

Thank you for correcting me...

[SIUAv8r]

Originally Posted by DOUGman

Flying the 172SP's with the KLN-94 GPS is all I ever need, why do I need a large G1000 MFD/PFD to learn how to fly??

Gimmie a 152/172 thats very simple to learn from versus a glass panel thats sure to hold your eye more then it needs to be, which would be bad for VFR flight anyways.

D.

I agree. I also agree with Captain A about the 250 hour wonder kids in the right seat...scary. However, not all collegiate programs are connected with the regionals, and there are many high quality pilots that come out of these programs.

[bwade210]

Great post...I had a long toalf with my F.I. today as to whether he fealt I would make a solid F.I. or not. That conversation combined with your post has convinced me of what path I need to follow to become a professional "pilot".

[sleepy3528]

ok so now where are one of those punks that graduated from one of these "unmentionable" programs that are gonna call everyone who says anything about these programs "a whiney, snively bunch of wannabes."

theres gonna be one of these "fast-trackers" on here who is only worried about getting theirs while screwing the profession. anybody who knows anything about the industry knows the programs are crap but for some reason theres still people in lala land believeing that this is the wave of the future. i dont want to hear their piss poor excuses for taking the easy route. you cant buy respect and you sure as hell wont get it from any respectable pilot by doing one of these programs. it boggles the mind what these kids are thinking... i feel bad for them. one had the balls to say that "its legal and allowed by the FAA so it must be ok".... lots of things are legal and the FAA is known to act only when a fatal accident occurs. the expression "these regulations have been written in blood" wasnt made up for giggles. I am waiting for when one of these 300 hr wonders in a CRJ cracks under the pressure and his/her in-experience shows causing fatalities... its gonna happen. maybe then the FAA will come down on these types of programs but until then we just have to put up with these disgraceful bunch of wankers.

sorry... touchy subject. a kid i went to school with that dropped out and went to one of these programs is now an FO on a CRJ. I am an FO who is almost captain on a smaller part 135 jet and this ass told me he would walk in my resume. he was paid 17 g's a year his first year after paying for his "CRJ class", he never graduated college, never instructed, never had to learn how to teach,.... and he has a higher seniority # then me if i get hired by his regional airline. If i ever get to a posiiton where i get to interview airline pilots i know exactly what kind of pilot i would want to fly with and these guys arent it.

later,
mike

[Bigey]

Originally Posted by DOUGman

Thanks for the short story, I have a 10-year old. nephew that wants to fly and I will be mentoring him in that regard.

The first thing that I want to get him into is gliding, per FAR regs I believe a competent 12. yr old. can solo, correct me if I am wrong on that one.

Flying the 172SP's with the KLN-94 GPS is all I ever need, why do I need a large G1000 MFD/PFD to learn how to fly??

Gimmie a 152/172 thats very simple to learn from versus a glass panel thats sure to hold your eye more then it needs to be, which would be bad for VFR flight anyways.

D.

Word

But i wouldnt mind having something with traffic information. It's so congested in SoCal.

Last lesson, there was a guy 300 or 400 feet below us doing lazy 8's.

[Chaz]

I dont understand why every one on this forum is against aviation degrees. Do you know that there are some people who would consider other jobs in aviation besides flying, and there are plenty. I am taking an aviation management degree because I would seek a career anyway in management if i could not fly but specifically aviation. You have to understand there are many oppurtunities that a degree is forestry, liberal arts, physics,.... etc cannot get a person anywhere in terms of a good career. Aviation might be a very unstable industry, but the salary and benefits are definitely there, and if you have the passion it doesn't matter. Just get a degree in something you like, and if it is aviation thats fine.

[Chris_Ford]

Chaz, what happens if there's another September 11th that throws 3 airlines out of business, and there are hundreds of aviation management people looking for jobs? And I'm personally of the opinion that it makes you educationally one-dimensional, but that's just me.

[Grabo172]

Love the post, but gotta put some stuff out...

From the first post...

As far as the GPS and the instrument pilot, most airlines do not even have approval to do GPS approaches yet, however the flight schools find it necessary to teach you all about them againg burning through a student's funds. Don't do it..it is not required to complete an instrument checkride!

From the "new" (2004) Instrument PTS...

The use of GPS for navigation and approaches has been clarified and the requirement for a GPS approach has been added.

If the practical test is conducted in the aircraft, and the aircraft has an operable and properly installed GPS, the applicant must demonstrate GPS approach proficiency when asked.

The applicant is expected to utilize an autopilot and/or flight management system (FMS), if properly installed, during the instrument practical test to assist in the management of the aircraft.

If it's in the airplane you HAVE to use it and use it right, so not learning GPS to save you money is going to cost you money by having to redo a pink slipped checkride...

But otherwise... Like I said...Good Post and welcome to the land of JC!!

[hattrick]

man you are going to do great on this forum. as said most of us feel the same way especially about the pay for job (PFJ) programs. the great thing is we manage to change quite a few peoples minds. in fact someone just had a little change in heart recently and now they are here on this particular thread with a much better outlook on this sort of program

[BEvaristo]

I'm a long time lurker but haven't really chimed in much here. I love the board and have learned so much. Great Post. I will admit last year when I decided to "follow the dream" I looked at all the big schools out there. I am 33 and wanted to find the easiest and fastest way to the airlines and was even preparing to attend one of them once the funding was lined up.

Luckily, I started doing more thinking and research and talked to a few friends I have that fly for the airlines. With their input, as well as all the great information I have received here, I opted to go to my local FBO and work on my ratings. Yes, it will take me longer to get my ratings. At 33, will I make it to the airlines? Who knows? In the end though, I definitely feel that I will have received better training with the Mom and Pop shop than I would have at one of the many pilot mills we all know of, not that all of them are bad. Not to mention that I can keep working in my current job and come out at worst, mostly debt free as far as my training goes.

Thanks again to all of you who have helped change my mind on where and how to train. Hopefully it'll make me a better pilot regardless of whether I fly recreationally or professionally.

[launchpad]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

Whatever you do, don't go to the Flight Safety Academy forum and say this. They'll call you mean, nasty, names and say you have no idea what you are talking about.

no kidding.......I can't wait for the rant when he flies with one of FSA's finest expressjet direct track gimps.......that's gonna be good (provided captain a is a captain at express jet...i'm just guessing on that one)

[Kristie]

Originally Posted by Chaz

I dont understand why every one on this forum is against aviation degrees. Do you know that there are some people who would consider other jobs in aviation besides flying, and there are plenty. I am taking an aviation management degree because I would seek a career anyway in management if i could not fly but specifically aviation. You have to understand there are many oppurtunities that a degree is forestry, liberal arts, physics,.... etc cannot get a person anywhere in terms of a good career. Aviation might be a very unstable industry, but the salary and benefits are definitely there, and if you have the passion it doesn't matter. Just get a degree in something you like, and if it is aviation thats fine.

well the problem isn't so much going for an aviation degree.. the problem is that a lot of the newbie's don't understand that you don't *need* an aviation degree to make it in this field - you just need *A* degree

There's where the conumdrum lies!

if folks *want* to go into aviation, that's fine.. but i wouldn't say there are plenty of jobs - aviation is not as easy a field (to find a job) as as business or another well known degree.