Do Yourself A Favor!!! About Flight Training and Respect - Page 5

bob loblaw · March 6th, 2006, 00:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Herreshoff

Tool

Yep, a Hammer at that.

desertdog71 · March 6th, 2006, 00:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob loblaw

Are you still working in New Jersey, or did you run back home because you coudn't hack it. You'd be with a regional by now if you shelled out the money and went to Gulfstream.

Now that is about the funniest kick in balls I have ever seen.

bob loblaw · March 6th, 2006, 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by desertdog71

Now that is about the funniest kick in balls I have ever seen.

Thanks man, trucker to trucker....

desertdog71 · March 6th, 2006, 00:34

Good Ole Gulfstream, kinda reminded me of a Prime Inc. Pitch when I spoke to those clowns over there. I was like "Let me get this straight.....I have to PAY YOU???? To work for you????"

Like they say "there is one born every minute"

DE727UPS · March 6th, 2006, 00:50

"If someone has the money to do this, than more power too them"

That attitude lowers the bar for this career. But more power to ya....

sleepy3528 · March 6th, 2006, 02:34

bob.... i am speechless at your stupidity. you havent proved your point... all you have proven is that the gene pool needs more chlorine. First you have done nothing to prove that PFT has not lowered the starting salaries of other regionals or stolen jobs away from other pilots. all your saying is that , in your very questionable and laughable wisdom, you agree that it is ok for these asswipes to pay to do a job that other more qualified people have worked hard to get. You agree that it is okay for management to accept this low time rich kid over someone who is more experienced, knowledgeable, and in most cases a little older (possibly more mature). how is this okay? do you agree with this because an airlines group of bean counters has allowed it? a group of people with little or no flight experience that will do anything to save a dollar even if it compromises safety! You and people like you, who are to short sighted to see the harm being done, are why WE hate PFT/PFJ. If you have used one of these programs i would consider you a ##### of the industry.... management has just used and abused you and your too stupid to realize it.

for all those asking if this took into account programs like UND, ERAU, Perdue,.... i really dont think this applies to those programs. ALl of those are basically just part 141 programs that can get you done quickly but still demand high standards. I believe the original posters and many of the follow up posters have been very specifically talking about PFT/PFJ places where you are given time in a part 121 or 135 aircraft working for a negative salary or severly decreased salary. i personally graduated from a part 141 college and it was a very good experience. wouldnt reccomend the pro pilot majors as they arent a good fall back if you lose your medical or something else comes up. and i am done

bob loblaw · March 6th, 2006, 07:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleepy3528

bob.... i am speechless at your stupidity. you havent proved your point... all you have proven is that the gene pool needs more chlorine. First you have done nothing to prove that PFT has not lowered the starting salaries of other regionals or stolen jobs away from other pilots. all your saying is that , in your very questionable and laughable wisdom, you agree that it is ok for these asswipes to pay to do a job that other more qualified people have worked hard to get. You agree that it is okay for management to accept this low time rich kid over someone who is more experienced, knowledgeable, and in most cases a little older (possibly more mature). how is this okay? do you agree with this because an airlines group of bean counters has allowed it? a group of people with little or no flight experience that will do anything to save a dollar even if it compromises safety! You and people like you, who are to short sighted to see the harm being done, are why WE hate PFT/PFJ. If you have used one of these programs i would consider you a ##### of the industry.... management has just used and abused you and your too stupid to realize it.

for all those asking if this took into account programs like UND, ERAU, Perdue,.... i really dont think this applies to those programs. ALl of those are basically just part 141 programs that can get you done quickly but still demand high standards. I believe the original posters and many of the follow up posters have been very specifically talking about PFT/PFJ places where you are given time in a part 121 or 135 aircraft working for a negative salary or severly decreased salary. i personally graduated from a part 141 college and it was a very good experience. wouldnt reccomend the pro pilot majors as they arent a good fall back if you lose your medical or something else comes up. and i am done

I am a 900 hour CFI/CFII/MEI and lets say I want to work for Gulfstream as a F/O. Guess what, I can't unless I go through their F/O program and pay big bucks to do so. Now, knowing this, how is the job stolen when you can't get it unless you go through their program. Why can't people understand this! This is like saying the imigrants are taking our jobs. Well, how many americans are lined up to take a job in a farm field picking crops for minimum wage. Thats right, none! How many CFI's are lined up to take a job as a Gulfstream F/O? Thats right, none. You can't steal what you can't take.

PFT, or PFJ is not killing the industry. Pilots taking huge paycuts are killing the industry. As I said in a previous post, which noone has denied or argued against, pilots at the majors who took concessions to keep their jobs openned management's eyes. If these guys are willing to take a pay cut, let's see how much we can get. This flows back to the regionals and lowers the pay for all involved. I can't help this fact, nor can every pilot banning together kill PFT, it is a matter of economics.

BTW, there is a new one on the market, or atleast new to me, it is called Jet University. Same business model as Gulfstream, but now you can buy a job in the right seat of a 727. This company is a Gulstream company, and I have no clue who they have an agreement with. I saw it in the March issue of Flying

bob loblaw · March 6th, 2006, 07:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

"If someone has the money to do this, than more power too them"

That attitude lowers the bar for this career. But more power to ya....

No, taking huge paycuts to keep your job lowers the bar for this career. I have lost jobs before because I stand up for what is right. Until you do the same, look in the mirror to see who can help, or hurt this industry.

bob loblaw · March 6th, 2006, 07:43

[quote=sleepy3528]bob.... i am speechless at your stupidity. you havent proved your point... all you have proven is that the gene pool needs more chlorine. First you have done nothing to prove that PFT has not lowered the starting salaries of other regionals or stolen jobs away from other pilots. all your saying is that , in your very questionable and laughable wisdom, you agree that it is ok for these asswipes to pay to do a job that other more qualified people have worked hard to get. You agree that it is okay for management to accept this low time rich kid over someone who is more experienced, knowledgeable, and in most cases a little older (possibly more mature). how is this okay? do you agree with this because an airlines group of bean counters has allowed it? a group of people with little or no flight experience that will do anything to save a dollar even if it compromises safety! You and people like you, who are to short sighted to see the harm being done, are why WE hate PFT/PFJ. If you have used one of these programs i would consider you a ##### of the industry.... management has just used and abused you and your too stupid to realize it.

Like I said in a previous post, if you work for a company who hires pilots from these programs, than you are hurting the industry. I have lost jobs before for standing up for what I know is right. Some people on this site know me personally, and they know I stand up for what I believe in, regardless of the price. You guys can stop PFJ by NOT working for the companies that hire those pilots. If you don't, you have noone to blame but yourselves.

bob loblaw · March 6th, 2006, 08:03

One last post on this subject and I have to post it carefully. Doug, I am only pointing something out and I am not saying there is anything wrong with it, IT is business of course. Having said that, there has been some people who lined up to tell me that brige programs, PFT, and PFJ are bad for the industry. However, there is an advertisement on this site for a program that allows you to interview with no less than 4 regionals, and another regional is in negotiations for this programs graduates with reduced minimums. I will not judge because it is BUSINESS and I understand.

CapnJim · March 6th, 2006, 08:18

bob loblaw- I'm all in favor of championing Unpopular Ideas, but Jesus Tapdancing Christ. I must now bequeath to you the "Speech of the Madison"

What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

bob loblaw · March 6th, 2006, 08:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by CapnJim

bob loblaw- I'm all in favor of championing Unpopular Ideas, but Jesus Tapdancing Christ. I must now bequeath to you the "Speech of the Madison"

What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Ha ha ha...lol. Someone please dispute what I have said. The only thing I see so far is some light personal attacks.

CapnJim · March 6th, 2006, 08:26

bob, you do it for me, you just don't know it. Also, thanks for reprinting the Speech in it's entirety, that was icing on the cake!

bob loblaw · March 6th, 2006, 08:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by CapnJim

bob, you do it for me, you just don't know it. Also, thanks for reprinting the Speech in it's entirety, that was icing on the cake!

I actually went back and re-read it and edited my post. Again, light personal attacks, but not a argument to dispute me.

CapnJim · March 6th, 2006, 08:37

That's fine, I'll paraphrase your retraction so everyone knows what I'm talking about. You said, roughly, "I was coherent, and I wan't rambling. Show me where I wasn't!"

I'll remember to copy your responses in the future so I can better deal with the Edit Button games.

bob loblaw · March 6th, 2006, 09:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by CapnJim

That's fine, I'll paraphrase your retraction so everyone knows what I'm talking about. You said, roughly, "I was coherent, and I wan't rambling. Show me where I wasn't!"

I'll remember to copy your responses in the future so I can better deal with the Edit Button games.

You will still have to do more than that to discredit me. I have yet to see someone argue my post about pilots at the majors taking paycuts and concessions to keep their jobs. I have seen people point out errors in grammer, and use obscure qoutes ( obscure to me atleast). My whole point is that I believe PFJ is not hurting the industry when pilots furhter above the food chain are taking paycuts and concessions to keep their jobs. Kind of like a reverse PFJ if you look at it correctly.

" I will give up 30% of my pay to continue to work here." By taking the paycuts, pilots told mangagement exactly what they are worth. Economics dictates a backward flow and the regionals adjusted. If the pilots at the majors (the top of the aviation food chain) took paycuts, then obviously the pay at the regionals was going to decrease as well.

Have you ever heard of mob mentality? "I have no clue what I am mad at but everybody is beating this thing over here so I will join them and beat it as well." That is the same thing going on here. One person says PFT/PFJ is bad, and everybody starts beating it to death. I didn't PFT/PFJ, but I won't sit with blinders on and say it is the reason the industry is paying pilots so little. ##### rolls downhill and you need only to look above you to see where the ##### is coming from.

bob loblaw · March 6th, 2006, 09:25

[quote=CapnJim]bob, you do it for me, you just don't know it. Also, thanks for reprinting the Speech in it's entirety, that was icing on the cake!

Oh, and BTW, it is early and I just realized where that "speech/movie quote came from." The movie Billy Madisson.

SteveC · March 6th, 2006, 09:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob loblaw

My whole point is that I believe PFJ is not hurting the industry when pilots furhter above the food chain are taking paycuts and concessions to keep their jobs. Kind of like a reverse PFJ if you look at it correctly.

You are wrong to place "blame" with the airline pilots. The big guys taking pay cuts are no more the root of the problem than the PFJer's at the bottom of the food chain. Both are simply symptoms, not the cause of the problem(s).

Analogy (always suspect, of course, but often illustrative): *they* say that fever is the cause of the sickness, while *you* argue that nausea is the cause. Both bunk statements.

adreamer · March 6th, 2006, 09:35

Bob, that was a entertaining post. I went to the same place as you did. I found myself a lot to learn when I am starting to instruct(no real students yet,

) From what I understand, (major) pilots take the pay cut to keep job open for one reason - They survive(barely) to fight another day.

However, I would like you to think of thisscenario. In order to get your current CFI job, you have pay FBO 25000 dollars in order to teach and fly the right seat. You get paid 8 dollars per hour. How would you like that? What would happen if next guy show up and said "I paid you 26,000 dollars. You can pay me 6 dollars per hour when I am flying with your customers? What do you think FBO manager would do?

adreamer

bob loblaw · March 6th, 2006, 09:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveC

You are wrong to place "blame" with the airline pilots. The big guys taking pay cuts are no more the root of the problem than the PFJer's at the bottom of the food chain. Both are simply symptoms, not the cause of the problem(s).

Analogy (always suspect, of course, but often illustrative): *they* say that fever is the cause of the sickness, while *you* argue that nausea is the cause. Both bunk statements.

In your opinion, what is the cause of the problem?

bob loblaw · March 6th, 2006, 09:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by adreamer

Bob, that was a entertaining post. I went to the same place as you did. I found myself a lot to learn when I am starting to instruct(no real students yet,

) From what I understand, (major) pilots take the pay cut to keep job open for one reason - They survive(barely) to fight another day.

However, I would like you to think of thisscenario. In order to get your current CFI job, you have pay FBO 25000 dollars in order to teach and fly the right seat. You get paid 8 dollars per hour. How would you like that? What would happen if next guy show up and said "I paid you 26,000 dollars. You can pay me 6 dollars per hour when I am flying with your customers? What do you think FBO manager would do?

adreamer

I would find another job. If it got to the point where I couldn't pay my bills and survive, I would go back to the trucking industry. The trucking industry pays very good money, and the demand for quality drivers is high.

jtrain609 · March 6th, 2006, 09:42

Might have been a funny kick in the balls, but somebody's getting moderated!

SteveC · March 6th, 2006, 10:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob loblaw

In your opinion, what is the cause of the problem?

Interestingly enough, your very next post illustrates it:

Quote:

Originally Posted by blahblahblah

I would find another job. If it got to the point where I couldn't pay my bills and survive, I would go back to the trucking industry. The trucking industry pays very good money, and the demand for quality drivers is high.

Market forces. Pilots' wages are working towards an equilibrium. Equilibrium is reached (temporarily only, it is never static) when the wages offered bring in enough *qualified* candidates. If wages are too low, pilots will walk away. If they are too high (because there is an overaboundance of candidates), the market will drive the price down in a quest for lower costs and better value for the customer.

bob loblaw · March 6th, 2006, 10:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Herreshoff

Might have been a funny kick in the balls, but somebody's getting moderated!

That's O.K. I have been there before. You have to realize that you pushed me to say that. Second, I have been much milder than in the past. I am certain Doug has been watching me for a good while now and not once did I lauch into real personal attacks, and I the majority of what I post is relevant, and coherent.

bob loblaw · March 6th, 2006, 10:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveC

Interestingly enough, your very next post illustrates it: Market forces. Pilots' wages are working towards an equilibrium. Equilibrium is reached (temporarily only, it is never static) when the wages offered bring in enough *qualified* candidates. If wages are too low, pilots will walk away. If they are too high (because there is an overaboundance of candidates), the market will drive the price down in a quest for lower costs and better value for the customer.

Thank you for giving me your opinion. I appreciate it, and I feel you are correct. Pilots will walk away if they can't survive, pay their bills, and put clothes on their backs.

March 6th, 2006, 00:34	#104
desertdog71 Old Skool Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: KIDP/KCNU Posts: 2,998	Good Ole Gulfstream, kinda reminded me of a Prime Inc. Pitch when I spoke to those clowns over there. I was like "Let me get this straight.....I have to PAY YOU???? To work for you????" Like they say "there is one born every minute" __________________ www.flywhiteair.com http://www.myspace.com/desertdog71 Following message is for SkyCougar. Took my chances on a big jet plane, Never let them tell you that they're all the same.

March 6th, 2006, 02:34	#106
sleepy3528 Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: NJ/ NY, USA Posts: 52	bob loblaw bob.... i am speechless at your stupidity. you havent proved your point... all you have proven is that the gene pool needs more chlorine. First you have done nothing to prove that PFT has not lowered the starting salaries of other regionals or stolen jobs away from other pilots. all your saying is that , in your very questionable and laughable wisdom, you agree that it is ok for these asswipes to pay to do a job that other more qualified people have worked hard to get. You agree that it is okay for management to accept this low time rich kid over someone who is more experienced, knowledgeable, and in most cases a little older (possibly more mature). how is this okay? do you agree with this because an airlines group of bean counters has allowed it? a group of people with little or no flight experience that will do anything to save a dollar even if it compromises safety! You and people like you, who are to short sighted to see the harm being done, are why WE hate PFT/PFJ. If you have used one of these programs i would consider you a ##### of the industry.... management has just used and abused you and your too stupid to realize it. for all those asking if this took into account programs like UND, ERAU, Perdue,.... i really dont think this applies to those programs. ALl of those are basically just part 141 programs that can get you done quickly but still demand high standards. I believe the original posters and many of the follow up posters have been very specifically talking about PFT/PFJ places where you are given time in a part 121 or 135 aircraft working for a negative salary or severly decreased salary. i personally graduated from a part 141 college and it was a very good experience. wouldnt reccomend the pro pilot majors as they arent a good fall back if you lose your medical or something else comes up. and i am done __________________ The pilots life is founded on three things: sex, seniority, and salary, in that order. -Dr. Ludwig Lederer, corporate physician, American Airlines

March 6th, 2006, 09:35	#119
adreamer Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: AZO Posts: 1,284	Bob, that was a entertaining post. I went to the same place as you did. I found myself a lot to learn when I am starting to instruct(no real students yet, ) From what I understand, (major) pilots take the pay cut to keep job open for one reason - They survive(barely) to fight another day. However, I would like you to think of thisscenario. In order to get your current CFI job, you have pay FBO 25000 dollars in order to teach and fly the right seat. You get paid 8 dollars per hour. How would you like that? What would happen if next guy show up and said "I paid you 26,000 dollars. You can pay me 6 dollars per hour when I am flying with your customers? What do you think FBO manager would do? adreamer __________________ CFI/CFII/MEI/Right seat

March 6th, 2006, 09:42	#122
jtrain609 Old Skool Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Park City, UT Posts: 12,000	Might have been a funny kick in the balls, but somebody's getting moderated! __________________ STFD 6 on, 1 off, 2 on, 2 off, 5 on - That's a cumulative 84 hours at home over a 14 day period.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

March 6th, 2006, 00:50	#105
DE727UPS Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 6,462	"If someone has the money to do this, than more power too them" That attitude lowers the bar for this career. But more power to ya....

March 6th, 2006, 07:43	#109
bob loblaw Banned Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 630	[quote=sleepy3528]bob.... i am speechless at your stupidity. you havent proved your point... all you have proven is that the gene pool needs more chlorine. First you have done nothing to prove that PFT has not lowered the starting salaries of other regionals or stolen jobs away from other pilots. all your saying is that , in your very questionable and laughable wisdom, you agree that it is ok for these asswipes to pay to do a job that other more qualified people have worked hard to get. You agree that it is okay for management to accept this low time rich kid over someone who is more experienced, knowledgeable, and in most cases a little older (possibly more mature). how is this okay? do you agree with this because an airlines group of bean counters has allowed it? a group of people with little or no flight experience that will do anything to save a dollar even if it compromises safety! You and people like you, who are to short sighted to see the harm being done, are why WE hate PFT/PFJ. If you have used one of these programs i would consider you a ##### of the industry.... management has just used and abused you and your too stupid to realize it. Like I said in a previous post, if you work for a company who hires pilots from these programs, than you are hurting the industry. I have lost jobs before for standing up for what I know is right. Some people on this site know me personally, and they know I stand up for what I believe in, regardless of the price. You guys can stop PFJ by NOT working for the companies that hire those pilots. If you don't, you have noone to blame but yourselves.

March 6th, 2006, 08:03	#110
bob loblaw Banned Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 630	One last post on this subject and I have to post it carefully. Doug, I am only pointing something out and I am not saying there is anything wrong with it, IT is business of course. Having said that, there has been some people who lined up to tell me that brige programs, PFT, and PFJ are bad for the industry. However, there is an advertisement on this site for a program that allows you to interview with no less than 4 regionals, and another regional is in negotiations for this programs graduates with reduced minimums. I will not judge because it is BUSINESS and I understand.

March 6th, 2006, 08:18	#111
CapnJim Old Skool Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: All up in Cantubury, tellin' tales. Posts: 4,439	bob loblaw- I'm all in favor of championing Unpopular Ideas, but Jesus Tapdancing Christ. I must now bequeath to you the "Speech of the Madison" What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

March 6th, 2006, 08:26	#113
CapnJim Old Skool Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: All up in Cantubury, tellin' tales. Posts: 4,439	bob, you do it for me, you just don't know it. Also, thanks for reprinting the Speech in it's entirety, that was icing on the cake!

March 6th, 2006, 08:37	#115
CapnJim Old Skool Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: All up in Cantubury, tellin' tales. Posts: 4,439	That's fine, I'll paraphrase your retraction so everyone knows what I'm talking about. You said, roughly, "I was coherent, and I wan't rambling. Show me where I wasn't!" I'll remember to copy your responses in the future so I can better deal with the Edit Button games.

March 6th, 2006, 09:25	#117
bob loblaw Banned Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 630	[quote=CapnJim]bob, you do it for me, you just don't know it. Also, thanks for reprinting the Speech in it's entirety, that was icing on the cake! Oh, and BTW, it is early and I just realized where that "speech/movie quote came from." The movie Billy Madisson.