Do Yourself A Favor!!! About Flight Training and Respect

[DE727UPS]

"Also, I tried to verify it, but the pinnacle RJ that crashed in 2004 was flown by a crew who came up the "right way."

Do a little more research. I believe the F/O came from Gulfstream, was pretty new at PCL, on reserve and didn't fly much, and had just over 1000 total. The Capt had been a direct entry Capt at Gulfstream on the 1900 and was had low time in the left seat of an RJ.

Denny or Jason, correct me if I'm wrong.

[Minnesota_Flyer]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

"Also, I tried to verify it, but the pinnacle RJ that crashed in 2004 was flown by a crew who came up the "right way."

Do a little more research. I believe the F/O came from Gulfstream, was pretty new at PCL, on reserve and didn't fly much, and had just over 1000 total. The Capt had been a direct entry Capt at Gulfstream on the 1900 and was had low time in the left seat of an RJ.

Denny or Jason, correct me if I'm wrong.

The NTSB thought that the connection with Gulfstream was sufficient to warrant its own separate section in the Ops/Human Factors report: http://www.ntsb.gov/events/2005/Pinn...its/317489.pdf Go to pg. 15.

[DE727UPS]

That link answers it all. F/O had 761 total, 222 in the jet. Capt had high total, 973 in the jet, and 150 in the left seat of the jet.

F/O was from Gulfstream and got hired at around 500 total.

[bob loblaw]

Originally Posted by Minnesota_Flyer

The NTSB thought that the connection with Gulfstream was sufficient to warrant its own separate section in the Ops/Human Factors report: http://www.ntsb.gov/events/2005/Pinn...its/317489.pdf Go to pg. 15.

The Captain had over 6,000 hours and was responsible for the decision to attempt to reach FL410. I am sure Gulfstream Academy does not teach this to their people. This accident was a result of a crew playing around with an empty (deadhead) jet. The fact that is empty could lead to a temptation to operate in a manner inconsistant with company procedures, and normal operations. The accident had nothing to do with the F/O being a low timer.

[bob loblaw]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

That link answers it all. F/O had 761 total, 222 in the jet. Capt had high total, 973 in the jet, and 150 in the left seat of the jet.

F/O was from Gulfstream and got hired at around 500 total.

Are you saying that a 1,500 hour CFI background F/O would have done better than the 500tt former F/O from Gulfstream? The Captain was flying, the Captain made the decision to go to FL410. Gulfstream had nothing to do with this accident other than the fact that this is where they trained. This accident was caused by human factors, not resisting the temptation to operate outside of normal procedures.

[Doug Taylor]

I think everything plays a role in the causal factors of the accident. One of the glaring omissions is that I'm not sure people really teach high-speed/swept-wing aerodynamics at any level. Training seems focused on procedure and systems but very little nowadays is spent on high/low speed margins or even how to recognize an situation about to turn sour. Un-annunciated emergency situations, perhaps?

The aerodynamic characteristics of an airplane flying 230 knots at 5,000 feet are totally different than a plane flying at FL370 at .81 mach.

I think when flight schools talk about getting your licenses, it's one thing, but when they start saying "We go'n make you an aero-line pilot!" you take on an entirely different level of responsibility for what you crank out.

[launchpad]

Originally Posted by bob loblaw

Are you saying that a 1,500 hour CFI background F/O would have done better than the 500tt former F/O from Gulfstream? The Captain was flying, the Captain made the decision to go to FL410. Gulfstream had nothing to do with this accident other than the fact that this is where they trained. This accident was caused by human factors, not resisting the temptation to operate outside of normal procedures.

Yep..the captain was flying...but there is a reason why 2 people are required in the cockpit. The problem with the 500 hour pft gimp is that he doesn't have enough experience to know when to speak up. If the captain says it and says it would be a cool thing to do, then an unexperienced FO (as it happened in this case) will just go along with it. If the FO had some knowledge and experience, he would have said, "uhhh...i don't think that's safe". A 1500 hour CFI has seen enough **** to know when he doesn't feel comfortable, and most will speak up.

These guys were operating within normal procedures, but didn't have the knowledge or experience to know what things could potentially go wrong.

There ALWAYS has to be one person in the cockpit who has an inkling of what's going on. That's why there are two pilots...to make sure that 100% of the decisions are made properly. If one pilot isn't completely up to it, the other one is there to make up for his slack.....

[bob loblaw]

Originally Posted by launchpad

Yep..the captain was flying...but there is a reason why 2 people are required in the cockpit. The problem with the 500 hour pft gimp is that he doesn't have enough experience to know when to speak up. If the captain says it and says it would be a cool thing to do, then an unexperienced FO (as it happened in this case) will just go along with it. If the FO had some knowledge and experience, he would have said, "uhhh...i don't think that's safe". A 1500 hour CFI has seen enough **** to know when he doesn't feel comfortable, and most will speak up.

These guys were operating within normal procedures, but didn't have the knowledge or experience to know what things could potentially go wrong.

There ALWAYS has to be one person in the cockpit who has an inkling of what's going on. That's why there are two pilots...to make sure that 100% of the decisions are made properly. If one pilot isn't completely up to it, the other one is there to make up for his slack.....

O.k. let me get this straight, a 6000 hour Captain who with near a 1,000 hours of jet time, not to mention the thousands of turbine hours from Gulfstream, didn't have the experience or knowledge to know what could go wrong. Yet, a 1,500 CFI with no jet experience would automatically know that what they were doing was wrong! Ahh...your logic is bent due to your bias of Gulstream. BTW, operating that jet at FL410 was not normal or approved operations. It was a ego trip to be in the 410 club which many a crew from that company aspired to be in.

[Windchill]

This is the problem. The point of view above is directly out of either Flying Magazine or AOPA pilot, and was a point of view by a cheif flight instructor from Texas who dislikes academy style training. I am not picking on you n57flyguy, but your post is just a regergitation of what was written in the magazine. The graduates of these programs had to go through the same training as a mom and pop fbo, they just get it done quicker.

Secondly, the graduates had to pass a CFI/CFII/MEI checkride and the FAA gave their blessing by awarding their certificates to instruct. As every CFI knows, the CFI is nothing more than a license to learn and teach. A CFI will gain his experience teaching and learn more than he ever knew before about flying and teaching. This woman does not even give them a chance because of her biased views about academy training. They may get an interview, but not the job because of her bias. This is her choice to do so because it is her sandlot and she can choose who plays there and who doesn't. It comes down to the catch 22. How does one get the experience, if one does not allow them to get the experience.

Loblaw ... are you thinking of Arlynn McMahon? I know she has that opinion and expresses it through AOPA's publications. She's a Chief Flight Instructor in Kentucky.

Tom Beneson (I believe it was him) did do up a pretty good article in the latest FLYING. It discussed the differences in scope of training ... rigid, structured environments geared toward preparing for an airline career vs. growing up in the GA, mom-and-pop environment.

[bob loblaw]

Originally Posted by Windchill

Loblaw ... are you thinking of Arlynn McMahon? I know she has that opinion and expresses it through AOPA's publications. She's a Chief Flight Instructor in Kentucky.

Tom Beneson (I believe it was him) did do up a pretty good article in the latest FLYING. It discussed the differences in scope of training ... rigid, structured environments geared toward preparing for an airline career vs. growing up in the GA, mom-and-pop environment.

Yes, that is her. I keep mistaking her being from Texas when in fact she is from Lexington, kY.

[DE727UPS]

Blahblahblah said: "I tried to verify it, but the pinnacle RJ that crashed in 2004 was flown by a crew who came up the "right way." Not by a crew of bridgers, so the fear of a low time F/O is pretty much unwarranted"

Then Blahblahblah said: "The accident had nothing to do with the F/O being a low timer"

First it was unwarranted, then, when faced with the fact that it WAS warranted, you explain away that low time had nothing to do with it.

Whatever....

Personally, I think the fact that the Capt had 150 hours in the left seat of the jet and the F/O had 222 hours in the jet and 761 total speaks volumes. Not enough experience to be pushing the envelope, as they were. Of course, planes don't fall out of the sky because of those times. These guys were a couple of screwoffs (read the transcript) that decided to mess around with an empty jet. That they both were at one time at Gulfstream kinda makes you wonder....

[lisboa]

"First of all I have to say that there are many flight academies and so fourth out there that all want the same thing from you, YOUR MONEY!! They promise you the world! Come here you'll fly a brand new Cessna 172 with a GPS moving map. Come here we have an RJ training program....ect. ect. Let me tell you something...THEY ARE MOSTLY ALL A RIP OFF!!!"

As a flight instructor who attended ATP and now works at a "mom and pop" school, I have to say that they have one thing in common. They both want your money. Three months after starting my schooling at the large flight academy, an actual FAA examiner found me competant on my initial cfi checkride. Not because they put me through some half ars "rip off" course, but because I was flying and studying up to 12 hours a day seven days a week. This kind of training is not available at any of the mom and pop schools in my area. This style of training was the only way I could have made the switch from weekend "fun flying" guy to cfi. As a married man who worked 55 hours a week, flying only on the weekends would have taken years. So if you are a guy who has a full time job and is looking to get your private, call your local fbo. However, if you need a dedicated flight instructor who is assigned to you to help you get your training done in an extremely intense and focused program, I would recommend the school I attended.

[DE727UPS]

"Are you saying that a 1,500 hour CFI background F/O would have done better than the 500tt former F/O from Gulfstream"

Who knows, it was a Gulfstream guy in the right seat. That's a fact.

Before Pinnacle, the Gulfstream guy had 250 hours in light aircraft and 250 hours of "rent an airline seat" in a Beech 1900. Then, he had 222 hours in an RJ at Pinnacle.

The difference between the 1500 hour CFI turned RJ F/O and the Gulfstream guy is that the CFI has had a lot more experience with guys pushing the envelope on him, had more "interesting moments" in airplanes (this is called experience), and might have been less keen on playing test pilot that day with the empty jet.

[bob loblaw]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

Blahblahblah said: "I tried to verify it, but the pinnacle RJ that crashed in 2004 was flown by a crew who came up the "right way." Not by a crew of bridgers, so the fear of a low time F/O is pretty much unwarranted"

Then Blahblahblah said: "The accident had nothing to do with the F/O being a low timer"

First it was unwarranted, then, when faced with the fact that it WAS warranted, you explain away that low time had nothing to do with it.

Whatever....

Personally, I think the fact that the Capt had 150 hours in the left seat of the jet and the F/O had 222 hours in the jet and 761 total speaks volumes. Not enough experience to be pushing the envelope, as they were. Of course, planes don't fall out of the sky because of those times. These guys were a couple of screwoffs (read the transcript) that decided to mess around with an empty jet. That they both were at one time at Gulfstream kinda makes you wonder....

So...maybe Pinnacle should be held responsible for placing two Gulfstreamers in the same cockpit at the same time? I can see the new company SOP manual " At no time shall former Gulfstream Academy pilots occupy the same cockpit at the same time." Come on.. where they trained was not a causal factor in this accident. The hate for this company is so thick, you need a cutting torch to cut it. I read the transcript, the Captain had thousands of hours in a turbo prop before coming to Pinnacle.

There are a number of people on this board who are flying with now, or are going to fly with Pinnacle in the near future. Are these same people, upon learning their Captain is a Gulfstreamer, going to get up out of the cockpit and refuse to fly with him? This whole thing is silly!

[Bandit_Driver]

Capt A. I couldn't agree with you more. I was fed the same line of BS by WMU. Go through our 141 school and get a BS in Aviation and you will be a regional airline pilot when you graduate. Nothing could be farther from the truth and thank God for it. I went and instructed for several months then flew 135 freight for 2.5 years. I am really glad I had the experience of teaching and very fortunate to have the cargo experience. I have flown at the regionals in Saabs and Embraers and now fly cargo 727's. I have seen the same scary things from low time pilots, no matter where they came from. But the PFT and 141 schools tend make pilots feel they can fly anything because of their training this makes those guys really dangerous.

To sum it all up: NO AMOUNT OF MONEY OR TRAINING CAN REPLACE QUALITY EXPERIENCE !!!

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by bob loblaw

No B.S. the bridger sacrificed twice the amount of money I did for me to become a CFI. The bridger deserves the same opportunity as I do, regardless of his hours.

So, you think it's okay for the bridge guy to "buy" his job? Is that what you're saying?

[B767]

So let me get this straight. I am a senior in HS and i want an aviation degree. I know i dont need one, however i want to do well in college and i know i will have the desire to do well and study for aviation opposed to other subjects. All this time i thought i have been getting harped on for wanting an aviation degree because they are frowned upon. Now i know it was just a misunderstanding :-) One of my fallback choices is a firefighter, and i already have the requirements to do that (i took fire science courses at a local CC). About the experience bit. I realize that no matter where i go i will have to pay quite a bit...just the nature of the industry. I also realize that you dont graduate from a university and go straight to a regional. I dont want to do that anyway. I want to get my ratings and GAIN experience by flying sight seeing tours over the Grand Canyon or ferrying passengers in the Carribean in twin otters (with floats!) I might only be in high school but these boards have taught me a lot about aviation and what is recommended vs. what is not. I will continue to take bits and pieces to form a plan that i think will best fit me.

End of pointless rant. Thanks for reading!

Taylor

[bob loblaw]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

So, you think it's okay for the bridge guy to "buy" his job? Is that what you're saying?

This is the misconception, ERAU CAPT program does not hire you to fly their planes. So, how could this be PFJ?

[Sprint100]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

So, you think it's okay for the bridge guy to "buy" his job? Is that what you're saying?

If he can handle it. Buying a job doesn't guarantee you have the "right stuff" or not. Just like CFIing doesn't guarantee that. Awwwww man, here we go down this road again LOL.

[Bandit_Driver]

Originally Posted by Sprint100

If he can handle it. Buying a job doesn't guarantee you have the "right stuff" or not. Just like CFIing doesn't guarantee that. Awwwww man, here we go down this road again LOL.

IMHO it is never OK to buy your job. Unfortunately, this "infection" within the industry will not go away until one of two things happen.
1. The FAA mandates realistic minimum hiring times for airlines
2. The airlines realize they are not getting the best person for the job by hiring the guy willing to work for peanuts. (this probably will never happen because the bean counters do not care about safety).

[n57flyguy]

Originally Posted by bob loblaw

This is the problem. The point of view above is directly out of either Flying Magazine or AOPA pilot, and was a point of view by a cheif flight instructor from Texas who dislikes academy style training. I am not picking on you n57flyguy, but your post is just a regergitation of what was written in the magazine. The graduates of these programs had to go through the same training as a mom and pop fbo, they just get it done quicker.

Secondly, the graduates had to pass a CFI/CFII/MEI checkride and the FAA gave their blessing by awarding their certificates to instruct. As every CFI knows, the CFI is nothing more than a license to learn and teach. A CFI will gain his experience teaching and learn more than he ever knew before about flying and teaching. This woman does not even give them a chance because of her biased views about academy training. They may get an interview, but not the job because of her bias. This is her choice to do so because it is her sandlot and she can choose who plays there and who doesn't. It comes down to the catch 22. How does one get the experience, if one does not allow them to get the experience.

Lastly, back to my first point which is supported by my second point. I see a lot of people who take on the popular beliefs and adopt them as your own. I don't mind if a guy has the money and pays an acadmey to train him as fast as possible and help him get an interview with a regional, more power to him. Alchemy pointed out that the hiring department has an agreement with these programs to provide a bridge for this type of training. If you are serious about wanting to stop it, you have to contact your union (if you have a union) and tell them that you want the bridge programs to stop and will strike as a group to make it happen.

Now lets see how many chime in here to say it can't be done. Because all I hear is a lot of crying and nobody willing to step up and make it happen. Why not create a list of pilots who completed the bridge programs and refuse them boarding, just as they do for scabs. I personally have no ill feelings to the bridgers, but I am giving you ways to stop it if you really wanted to.

I fell about the size of an ant. I do strongly agree with those/my point though. I know you wernt tryn to shoot me down, but you did, friendly fire

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by bob loblaw

O.k. let me get this straight, a 6000 hour Captain who with near a 1,000 hours of jet time, not to mention the thousands of turbine hours from Gulfstream, didn't have the experience or knowledge to know what could go wrong.

A Beech 1900 at FL240 and a high-speed swept-wing jet at FL410 approaching the 'coffin corner' are two distinctly different birds.

In a commercial environment, 1000 hours of jet time is relatively 'newbie' in the big picture.

[DOUGman]

Originally Posted by shinysideup

Oh yeah...

UAL747400 and DOUGman

I will give you credit for trying but I think you should change your names. We are but just pilots and are easily confused. Such as DE727UPS flies for UPS its easy, and "Doug Taylor" is Doug Taylor, and I am "shinysideup" cause that's my goal in flying. Not that I haven't dabbled in minor aerobatics but most of the time I try to keep the oiled side closest to the ground. My point: In reading your posts, we know your not an United Airlines 747-400 pilot, but to another new poster, you have the name which would imply so. Therefore giving off the impression of someone who knows what is going on in the industry, company, airplane which you don't. And there are too many posts to the effect of "Hey doug what do you think about this." DOUGman if you were to reply to those posts, the newcomer would take your word for gold, and it should not be misconstrued for such.

MY "REAL" name is Doug, Douglas, Dougie, etc... and I have been using the callsign "DOUGman" for sometime on other forums, if there is a general consensus to have me change then so be it.

No way, would I EVER try to misrepresent myself on here, what would be the point?

[Sprint100]

Originally Posted by Bandit_Driver

IMHO it is never OK to buy your job.

Honestly, anytime you pay for schooling or training you are buying a job. Remember pimp's and hoe's come in all shapes and sizes

Originally Posted by Bandit_Driver

The FAA mandates realistic minimum hiring times for airlines

Keep dreamin'

Originally Posted by Bandit_Driver

The airlines realize they are not getting the best person for the job by hiring the guy willing to work for peanuts. (this probably will never happen because the bean counters do not care about safety).

Now your going out to another ballpark with this. Plus you can't say the best is not the one willing to work for peanuts. Most artists and musicians must be terrible and all the top 40 artists must be the best singers in the world

Working for peanuts is an entirely different topic

[skywestseth]

It's kind of BS to say that just because a person goes to a large fast paced school they don't deserve any respect, why? Because they didn't do things the same way that you did...I agree if they suck then don't applaud their abilities....if they are a safety hazard then they shouldn't be working flying people for money...but those two things i would blame on a person and not an institution...im not saying that some flight schools suck but not everybody picks up and learns as quick as others...i seriously doubt that anyone who is a direct threat to other people or even themselves will be working at an airline, or continue to work at an airline for very long...

I would expect people's abilities not be at there climax when they first get to the regional...okay someone has some rough crosswind landings in an rj...they are in the right seat as an FO, I would consider the right seat to be in a learning phase...someone who can fly alongside a left seat captain and learn from them, learn about the aircraft, how to finesse the controls on those tricky crosswind landings, etc etc...Perhaps you should spend more time mentoring your First Officer's,instead of criticizing there abilities.

Now im not doubting your abilities as a professional airline pilot, and you have a clearcut guide on your recommendations for a succesful career in aviation,

But i disagree with you saying that because they went to an aviation school they don't deserve respect, everyone deserves respect, if people are suppost to respect you then why are you immune from respecting other people who have chosen the same profession as you? Because they did it a different way?


Safe flying and happy trail's

-Seth L.