Do Yourself A Favor!!! About Flight Training and Respect

[Kristie]

Originally Posted by Chris_Ford

Chaz, what happens if there's another September 11th that throws 3 airlines out of business, and there are hundreds of aviation management people looking for jobs? And I'm personally of the opinion that it makes you educationally one-dimensional, but that's just me.

Chris.. really need to keep in mind that if another 9/11 happened, it'd be more than just aviation folks out of a job... there's be hundreds of jobs gone in all sorts of fields - no field is safe from that type of action, so you really can't *play* it that way.

I mean with the way you present this pondering question - think about it - what happens if hte stock market bottoms out? same type of scenario right?

[Alchemy]

Unfortunately it's our own hiring departments that are exacerbating the poliferation of "jet transition programs". 200 hr newly-minted commercial pilots with a few thousand more dollars to blow see the opportunity for a shortcut and grab it.

I attempted several times to reccomend moderately experienced CFI's for employment at the regional I work for, only to be told that they either wanted to see "turbine time or a jet transition course". I wish there was some way we could get this crap out of the hiring departments. To me it's almost an extension of PFT.

[notawannabee]

If I had a choice of degree to interview with, and there were no aviation management jobs to be found, I would choose the general business / mgt. degree.

If I was a hiring manager for the flight operation, I would look more favorably at a candidate who obviously took flying lessons because they enjoyed it and supplemented it with a management degree. If I saw a candidate with ratings and an AVIATION management degree, I would think this is a person who wanted to be a pilot and didn't make it. Management is only the backup- plan, and they may never be truly happy in the role. They will probably quit the position soon.

I must agree with Chris on the point that, in this industry, it is a good thing to have a diverse educational background.

[kellwolf]

First off, I agree totally with Captain A. That's why I'm glad I attended and instructed at the flight school I did. We might not have the new fancy equipment (especially the Seminoles) but they get the job done for a fair price. We've got some flashy stuff for the renters with $$$ (couple of G1000 182s and a G1000 172), but most of our career students stick with the older models to save $$$.

Like Grabo pointed out, if the GPS/AP is in the plane, then you have to demonstrate usage on the checkride. However, nothing says you HAVE to take a plane with an IFR GPS.

Now on the G1000 vs the standard 172, here's my main problem with the G1000. There is a ton of info....too much for some people. Yeah, it's got traffic avoidance, but there's a delay. A delay that's gonna get someone killed one day b/c they spend way too much time watching the pretty screens and not enough time looking outside. It's a great system, and one I find myself wishing I had access to on a lot of cross countries, however, there are dangers involved that could land Joe Renter in a lot of trouble. There has to be proper training done during the insurance checkout, including failure modes, proper traffic scanning, etc. I know a couple of CFIs that just hop in the plane and say "Let's fly 5 hours of X/C and listen to the radio, then you're good to go."

Now, on aviation degrees. I've got one. Why? B/c it's one I knew I would finish. Will it help me as a fall back? Heck, no. But I've got *A* degree. If you want to go into aviation, pick a subject you enjoy since you're more likely to finish it. If it's a non-aviation degree, it's a bonus since you've got a fall back.

[guitarpah]

Alright.. you got me. I was alittle weary of the fast track stuff but i figured i could pick up the rest of the stuff as a CFI. I just wanna fly and be good at it. I figured this was the best way to get me in the air, but whats the point if your ignorant and get no respect?

So, with very few (less than 5) hours and passion for flight, what should I do? what should i be paying for my hours?

thanks you guys....

Also, i wanna say that the sept 11th thing is often overstated. I know to those in the industry it is a BIG BIG BIG deal. Iam very sorry to see airlines declaring bankrupcy, but people will always need to travel, and i dont see zeplins making a come back. Be strong, pilots, and keep lookig out for each other. If economic history has taught us anything it that, barring a new and better mode of transport, the transportation industry always bounces back. if you don't belive me, look into the history of train travel at the turn of the century. sorry for the rant.

[Alchemy]

Also, i wanna say that the sept 11th thing is often overstated. I know to those in the industry it is a BIG BIG BIG deal. Iam very sorry to see airlines declaring bankrupcy, but people will always need to travel, and i dont see zeplins making a come back. Be strong, pilots, and keep lookig out for each other. If economic history has taught us anything it that, barring a new and better mode of transport, the transportation industry always bounces back. if you don't belive me, look into the history of train travel at the turn of the century. sorry for the rant.

Sure, things will bounce back for *some* companies eventually, the big question is wether or not pilots will still have the bargaining power to they had in the last century when their companies are profitable again. Right now, I'm afraid irreparable damage is being done to the profession by constant paycuts, PFT/PFJ programs, relaxed scope, and Mega-Acadamies churning out will-work-for-peanuts pilots in an already saturated industry. Over the last few decades, a pilot's average salaray has definitely NOT kept up with inflation, but it has in fact taken a nose dive in the wrong direction.

[Doug Taylor]

I'm not against aviation degrees whatsoever, I have one.

But don't get an aviation degree because you need one -- you do not. Get one because you want one and it's a field you'd like to study in depth.

The only time I rail against aviation degrees is when a high school kid writes and says "I need an aviation degree to be a pilot, but I can't afford (insert name of school here)".

You don't need a liberal arts degree (or can you really use one anyway), but if it's what you want to study, go for it.

My suggest however, is if you're looking to just check the 'Do you have a college degree' box 'Yes', don't blow four years working on a basketweaving degree, get something that would serve as a back up to your career aspirations.

The real world is expensive. All of the career satisfaction in the world will not pay your mortgage and your parents will eventually kick you out!

[UAL747400]

Originally Posted by Captain A

Ok kids!

Sorry, but I'm gona have to disagree a little. First, Im not totally sure on who you're criticising when you say "flight school". Are you just against the big high dollar ones, and throwing PFT right in there with it?

I go to UND and yes, Im majoring in commercial aviation with a minor in meteoroloy. If you're not including UND in your little rant there, just disregard. If you are however, then you're a little bit off.

UND is very VERY cheap. 87 for a warrior, 129 for an arrow, not sure on the seminole. In state tuition is 3000 dollars a semester. In ND, all you need for residency is to reside in the state for a year basically. I didnt pick this school for its "fancy" program. I picked it because it was significantly cheaper than all of my options back home. About 10,000 dollars if I recall right. I got my PPL at an FBO, so I know a little about how FBO style training goes. I would say it was about as good as what I get at UND and like both styles about the same.

For those that keep preaching the "you're gona screw yourself if your career ends with a degree in commercial aviation". Not everyone's backup plan requires a specialized degree. Mine does not. So whats wrong with me studying aviation? I've always been into science more than other areas. This program gives me a pretty broad range on the subject. Its interesting to me. Besides a degree in commercial aviation is also A DEGREE.

Sorry if any of this sounds harsh. It's not my intent. Its dang near one in the morning and Im a little loopy right now.

Edited by Doug Taylor - I cut out the enormous quote!

[guitarpah]

college is the new highschool. What your degree is in is of little importance. my stepfather is a tax lawyer who majored in religion with a minor in greek. my friend, the english major is now at University of chicago Prtizker Medical School. I belive the real value of a college education is the ability to think critically, reason soundly, and get your ##### done. I for one am a liberal arts student and i belive it can apply to anything. i cant really say much for aviation majors but i'm sure there are lots of them, who we probably don't hear about, who went on to become executive vice prez of human resoursed in the mid west devision... or something like that...

do what you love, love what you do

[Doug Taylor]

How's that English 101 coming, bro?

[guitarpah]

Bad... how'd ya know? lol

[Maximillian_Jenius]

Originally Posted by Chris_Ford

Chaz, what happens if there's another September 11th that throws 3 airlines out of business, and there are hundreds of aviation management people looking for jobs? And I'm personally of the opinion that it makes you educationally one-dimensional, but that's just me.

Ummmm aren't you getting your degree in aviation???

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by guitarpah

Bad... how'd ya know? lol

Oh, ahh, just a hunch...

[shinysideup]

CaptA.... You have an A in my book. If I was in a Southern Baptist Church I would hail down a great "Amen, My brother." but I'm not. I am in the NE and so I will only say good deal...

Originally Posted by kellwolf

First off, I agree totally with Captain A. That's why I'm glad I attended and instructed at the flight school I did. We might not have the new fancy equipment (especially the Seminoles) but they get the job done for a fair price. We've got some flashy stuff for the renters with $$$ (couple of G1000 182s and a G1000 172), but most of our career students stick with the older models to save $$$.

Like Grabo pointed out, if the GPS/AP is in the plane, then you have to demonstrate usage on the checkride. However, nothing says you HAVE to take a plane with an IFR GPS.

Now on the G1000 vs the standard 172, here's my main problem with the G1000. There is a ton of info....too much for some people. Yeah, it's got traffic avoidance, but there's a delay. A delay that's gonna get someone killed one day b/c they spend way too much time watching the pretty screens and not enough time looking outside. It's a great system, and one I find myself wishing I had access to on a lot of cross countries, however, there are dangers involved that could land Joe Renter in a lot of trouble. There has to be proper training done during the insurance checkout, including failure modes, proper traffic scanning, etc. I know a couple of CFIs that just hop in the plane and say "Let's fly 5 hours of X/C and listen to the radio, then you're good to go."

Kell... we go back... but here it is...

Cessna wants to produce more G1000 aircraft because it cost them less to put in two screens then it cost to put in an airspeed indicator, attidude indicator, altimeter, turn coordinator, HSI (or DG), VSI, Nav #2 (possibly a Nav #1 if no HSI), Comm #1, Comm #2, Nav #1, Nav #2, Transponder, clock, GPS, audio pannel, intercom, possibly a traffic advisory system, and that clever little thing that tells you the wind speed and direction at your present altitude.

My point being, there needs to be a shift within the instructors that are teaching in these machines to isolate each part on the TV screen, and teach how they relate to the flying of an aircraft, such as I taught you (best I could) to read an ASI, VSI, HSI, etc... Primary and supporting instuments have been left out of the teaching method for the G1000 and Avidine displays. Its all on one screen, but the instruments are very seperate, and getting their information from different places.


On another side.... CaptA.... Good on you.... I would have done it differently if I had the chance to run into this site before I signed on with the XXXXXX. But, I didn't, and now I like flying small planes until I am ready to go to the bigger ones.

Just for fodder... I just broke 2000 hours, I have never flown a regional jet. Somebody tell me that I am wrong, tell me that I should have taken that job offer at 800 hours flying a 1900, tell me that I should have taken the job flying the DO-jet at 1300 hours, tell me I should have taken the interview with the (as CaptA said) "regional" based in my home town at 1550, tell me I am wasting my time flying small planes, tell me that I am not up to my potential. Go ahead. I have heard it before, you know what...I like it... I am perfectly comfortable flying small planes, you know why...I am qualified to do so, I am not qualified to fly a jet. I am obviously overqualified if they are only willing to pay me $18,600 a year. I am just wondering WTFO!!@!!!#$%^&*(*&^%$#@!!!@#$%^&*(*&^%$#@#$%^&*(

[DOUGman]

Originally Posted by Kristie

well the problem isn't so much going for an aviation degree.. the problem is that a lot of the newbie's don't understand that you don't *need* an aviation degree to make it in this field - you just need *A* degree

There's where the conumdrum lies!

if folks *want* to go into aviation, that's fine.. but i wouldn't say there are plenty of jobs - aviation is not as easy a field (to find a job) as as business or another well known degree.

I have been looking at getting a BA in computer science but as yet found a school accomodating for a working professional.

[shinysideup]

Oh yeah...

UAL747400 and DOUGman

I will give you credit for trying but I think you should change your names. We are but just pilots and are easily confused. Such as DE727UPS flies for UPS its easy, and "Doug Taylor" is Doug Taylor, and I am "shinysideup" cause that's my goal in flying. Not that I haven't dabbled in minor aerobatics but most of the time I try to keep the oiled side closest to the ground. My point: In reading your posts, we know your not an United Airlines 747-400 pilot, but to another new poster, you have the name which would imply so. Therefore giving off the impression of someone who knows what is going on in the industry, company, airplane which you don't. And there are too many posts to the effect of "Hey doug what do you think about this." DOUGman if you were to reply to those posts, the newcomer would take your word for gold, and it should not be misconstrued for such.

Its kinda like walking into a bar and saying "My name is "Neil Legstrong, I am an Astronaut." Well to some who does not know any better, you will be considered royalty, but for those who realize that your not who you make yourself out to be, you will be ridiculed and even in some cases be considered idiots, or in some other cases get thrown in jail for some obscure local law about impersonating someone else.

Its bad practice.

[jrh]

Originally Posted by shinysideup

Oh yeah...

UAL747400 and DOUGman

I will give you credit for trying but I think you should change your names. We are but just pilots and are easily confused. Such as DE727UPS flies for UPS its easy, and "Doug Taylor" is Doug Taylor, and I am "shinysideup" cause that's my goal in flying. Not that I haven't dabbled in minor aerobatics but most of the time I try to keep the oiled side closest to the ground. My point: In reading your posts, we know your not an United Airlines 747-400 pilot, but to another new poster, you have the name which would imply so. Therefore giving off the impression of someone who knows what is going on in the industry, company, airplane which you don't. And there are too many posts to the effect of "Hey doug what do you think about this." DOUGman if you were to reply to those posts, the newcomer would take your word for gold, and it should not be misconstrued for such.

Where did that come from?

I don't think there is anything wrong with those guys. For goodness sakes, his name is Douglas. It's not like he set up an account named "DougTaylor" as opposed to the real "Doug Taylor" and is actively trying to trick people into thinking he's the head guy around here.

And UAL747400? What's wrong with liking a plane? A little flight-simmeresque in my opinion, but he's not claiming to be some hotshot 747 captain. He just made it pretty clear that he's a UND college student.

Originally Posted by shinysideup

Its kinda like walking into a bar and saying "My name is "Neil Legstrong, I am an Astronaut."

Come on, no it's not. It's more like walking into a bar with a "NASA" baseball cap on and telling people you think astronauts are cool. These guys aren't claiming to be anything they're not.

[eta71]

Where to begin?
For the people who have stated that an aviation degree isn't worth much I would argue the opposite. I have stated in posts before that there are many aspects of aviation which are well served by those who have majored in an aviation related field of study. Management, safety, logistics, accident investigation, and law to name a few. As others have said, study a major you enjoy. I thoroughly enjoyed my aviation admin. major as I was exposed to many different non-flying aspects of the industry. UND sounds expensive compared to the cost of a resident CalState school. It does sound much less costly than ERAU. Did I research the aforementioned schools as well? Yes. I made the right choice for where I was in life and what I wanted to achieve.

I work in the medical field and although it does pay relatively well it is not what I want to do for the rest of my life. It helped get me through my "B.S." degree and is helping pay for my flight training at a local FBO. I would gladly attend one particular flight academy had my loan been approved. I toured most of the cookie cutter academies too. I did many spreadsheets to see what the costs would actually be and always added a grain of salt to what the marketing guys put forth. I do think that the ploy of most academies are to suck you of your potential dollars.

Did 9-11 really start the fall of the industry? I don't agree. The airline industry was ready to be thinned. I am not happy at all about this fact. The downfall of Pan Am was a sign that the industry was on the verge of hard times. TWA absorbed/bought by AA was another sign. There is a saying in aviation/airlines that the best way to make a buck is to invest two, leaving you with one left over after you lose half the investment. I wish I was still in school studying and forecasting what is to become of JetBlue. They started off trying to better the business model of Southwest but they are beginning to see it wasn't all they thought it would be. There are so many airlines which have started and ended during our century of flight. The namesakes, the ones which pioneered routes, business models, etc were the ones hardest to see go.

End of rant.

[n57flyguy]

Just read Captain A post and I couldn't agree more. Those big name flight schools arn't giving students the real GA expierince and learning about the GA perspective. As Ive read, Flight Acadamy Graduates are not ready to instruct they are ready to fly for an airline.

As for aviation degrees, well some of you know my view. I think getting a non aviation related degree right now would be the best thing because of how unsecure the airline industry is today, and providing a fall back. Look at Delta and Northwest.

Just my point of view.

[UAL747400]

Originally Posted by shinysideup

Oh yeah...

UAL747400 and DOUGman

I will give you credit for trying but I think you should change your names. We are but just pilots and are easily confused. Such as DE727UPS flies for UPS its easy, and "Doug Taylor" is Doug Taylor, and I am "shinysideup" cause that's my goal in flying. Not that I haven't dabbled in minor aerobatics but most of the time I try to keep the oiled side closest to the ground. My point: In reading your posts, we know your not an United Airlines 747-400 pilot, but to another new poster, you have the name which would imply so. Therefore giving off the impression of someone who knows what is going on in the industry, company, airplane which you don't. And there are too many posts to the effect of "Hey doug what do you think about this." DOUGman if you were to reply to those posts, the newcomer would take your word for gold, and it should not be misconstrued for such.

Its kinda like walking into a bar and saying "My name is "Neil Legstrong, I am an Astronaut." Well to some who does not know any better, you will be considered royalty, but for those who realize that your not who you make yourself out to be, you will be ridiculed and even in some cases be considered idiots, or in some other cases get thrown in jail for some obscure local law about impersonating someone else.

Its bad practice.

Wow, just wow!

Do you not browse internet forums much? Forum screen names are just that, screen names. I picked it like 4 years ago back when I was a little nerdy about aviation. Its not mine, or anyones problem if someone else misinterprets their screen name. If someone thinks I might be a UAL 747-400 captain, they should ask. I for one have NEVER tried to impersonate being an airline pilot on the internet.

Im trying to stay calm and mature about responding to this, but frankly that is probably one of the dumbest, most unneccessary posts I've ever seen. Sorry.

[bob loblaw]

Originally Posted by n57flyguy

Just read Captain A post and I couldn't agree more. Those big name flight schools arn't giving students the real GA expierince and learning about the GA perspective. As Ive read, Flight Acadamy Graduates are not ready to instruct they are ready to fly for an airline.

Just my point of view.

This is the problem. The point of view above is directly out of either Flying Magazine or AOPA pilot, and was a point of view by a cheif flight instructor from Texas who dislikes academy style training. I am not picking on you n57flyguy, but your post is just a regergitation of what was written in the magazine. The graduates of these programs had to go through the same training as a mom and pop fbo, they just get it done quicker.

Secondly, the graduates had to pass a CFI/CFII/MEI checkride and the FAA gave their blessing by awarding their certificates to instruct. As every CFI knows, the CFI is nothing more than a license to learn and teach. A CFI will gain his experience teaching and learn more than he ever knew before about flying and teaching. This woman does not even give them a chance because of her biased views about academy training. They may get an interview, but not the job because of her bias. This is her choice to do so because it is her sandlot and she can choose who plays there and who doesn't. It comes down to the catch 22. How does one get the experience, if one does not allow them to get the experience.

Lastly, back to my first point which is supported by my second point. I see a lot of people who take on the popular beliefs and adopt them as your own. I don't mind if a guy has the money and pays an acadmey to train him as fast as possible and help him get an interview with a regional, more power to him. Alchemy pointed out that the hiring department has an agreement with these programs to provide a bridge for this type of training. If you are serious about wanting to stop it, you have to contact your union (if you have a union) and tell them that you want the bridge programs to stop and will strike as a group to make it happen.

Now lets see how many chime in here to say it can't be done. Because all I hear is a lot of crying and nobody willing to step up and make it happen. Why not create a list of pilots who completed the bridge programs and refuse them boarding, just as they do for scabs. I personally have no ill feelings to the bridgers, but I am giving you ways to stop it if you really wanted to.

[kellwolf]

I got my PPL at an FBO, so I know a little about how FBO style training goes. I would say it was about as good as what I get at UND and like both styles about the same.

Careful here. Just b/c you've been to one FBO doesn't mean they train the same as all FBOs, just like all the academies and aviation colleges aren't the same. There are some FBOs out there that train on the highest level, and there are some really crappy ones. Just b/c you've seen one FBO flight school doesn't mean you've seen them all.

I personally have no ill feelings to the bridgers, but I am giving you ways to stop it if you really wanted to.

This is assuming that pilot unions have any power when it comes to hiring of employees. I doubt many airlines would give that kind of power to the union. And if you're saying that you would harbor no ill will toward a bridge program person with 600 hours if they were offered a job you both interviewed with after "sacrificing to obtain your CFI/CFII/MEI," then I call BS.

[UAL747400]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

Careful here. Just b/c you've been to one FBO doesn't mean they train the same as all FBOs, just like all the academies and aviation colleges aren't the same. There are some FBOs out there that train on the highest level, and there are some really crappy ones. Just b/c you've seen one FBO flight school doesn't mean you've seen them all.

Yeah I understand this. Thats why I didnt go to indepth in comparing the two.

[bob loblaw]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

Careful here. Just b/c you've been to one FBO doesn't mean they train the same as all FBOs, just like all the academies and aviation colleges aren't the same. There are some FBOs out there that train on the highest level, and there are some really crappy ones. Just b/c you've seen one FBO flight school doesn't mean you've seen them all.



This is assuming that pilot unions have any power when it comes to hiring of employees. I doubt many airlines would give that kind of power to the union. And if you're saying that you would harbor no ill will toward a bridge program person with 600 hours if they were offered a job you both interviewed with after "sacrificing to obtain your CFI/CFII/MEI," then I call BS.

No B.S. the bridger sacrificed twice the amount of money I did for me to become a CFI. The bridger deserves the same opportunity as I do, regardless of his hours. Also, I tried to verify it, but the pinnacle RJ that crashed in 2004 was flown by a crew who came up the "right way." Not by a crew of bridgers, so the fear of a low time F/O is pretty much unwarranted.

[Minnesota_Flyer]

Originally Posted by bob loblaw

Also, I tried to verify it, but the pinnacle RJ that crashed in 2004 was flown by a crew who came up the "right way." Not by a crew of bridgers, so the fear of a low time F/O is pretty much unwarranted.

The Capt. came from Gulfstream.