I didn't know they were hiring!

[Chris_Ford]

Originally Posted by Timbuff10

Nuts! Beat me to it...

I like my posts like I like my sex. Over with quickly and only pleasing to me.

[ian]

Originally Posted by sopdan

And the winner is..............





Bigey!!!!!!!!!!!!!! For the record, ian, I got my comm. at 186, you'd better be sure of your accusations/regs before you go posting.

John, I'll PM you the name...

it was not an accusation, it was a question...dont think im out to get you and prove you wrong simply because i asked aquestion.

[Maximillian_Jenius]

Originally Posted by Chris_Ford

I like my posts like I like my sex. Over with quickly and only pleasing to me.

CF refer to a "thread" in progress in the lav! PM me for details...

[sopdan]

Originally Posted by ian

it was not an accusation, it was a question...dont think im out to get you and prove you wrong simply because i asked aquestion.

How did you do that?

That was the question.

the min hour requirment for Commercial is 250 Hours, and you must have your commercial to have your CFI

That was the questionable statement.... obviously I know what requirements there are for different types of training.... after all, it is my job, and I think that I am familiar with my own training. But don't worry, I don't let internet forums bug me too much.

[ian]

Originally Posted by sopdan

That was the question.



That was the questionable statement.... obviously I know what requirements there are for different types of training.... after all, it is my job, and I think that I am familiar with my own training. But don't worry, I don't let internet forums bug me too much.

sorry for the misunderstanding, my intentions for that were pretty much explaining why i asked the question

[jawright]

"*After receiving $2,000 in flight pay, program cost is just $27,684."

You mean they're gonna pay us, too? What a deal!!

[DE727UPS]

Over at flightinfo there are a surprising number of Gulfstream supporters. Funny how you don't see many over here....hehe. What really gets me is how they shoot me down when I speak of how unpopular PFJ is considered among most professional pilots. I mean, it's not something that comes up in the normal course of conversation all that much. But if you were to sit down and explain "renting out the F/O seat at a 121 pax airline" to them they wouldn't like it....nor would they likely even believe anyone does it.

[BCTAv8r]

I can't stand to see that guy in the Flying Mag ad of GIA. He looks like such a scum bag.

[Maximillian_Jenius]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

Over at flightinfo there are a surprising number of Gulfstream supporters. Funny how you don't see many over here....hehe. What really gets me is how they shoot me down when I speak of how unpopular PFJ is considered among most professional pilots. I mean, it's not something that comes up in the normal course of conversation all that much. But if you were to sit down and explain "renting out the F/O seat at a 121 pax airline" to them they wouldn't like it....nor would they likely even believe anyone does it.

Yea but that new guy PowerRanger over there at flightinfo really seems to be giving them a run for their money. He has an odd name but really seems to know his stuff!

[ian]

i agree with you guys completely on the whole PFJ/PFT thing, but why do you chastise the people that do it so much? its their decison to do and they end up getting what they want even though they paid a lot for it. Just because the aviation community 'frowns upon it' doesnt mean its wrong. Its like you guys have the mentality that since you did it a different way its a rite of passage and they should do it the same way...they dont affect you...so i just dont get it..
Again, im not trying to start anything, and i agree with the people against it, i just dont understand why people have to be so adamant about it.

[Doug Taylor]

Word from one of my pals is that they had called Gulfstream and he was notified that they were 'bid restricted second officers from Pan Am" that got their licenses in order to qualify for a pilot position and had retired recently, which is why they're not on the seniority list.

My pal then looked at the seniority list again and saw no trace of either of these pilots at all so it looks like he was given a load of poop. Generally, even after retirement I'm told that they stay on the pilot records but there is no trace of either of these pilots on that list whatsoever. Even amongst the 'bid restricted second officers'.

Sounds like someone's 'busted'!

[fly22]

Originally Posted by Chris_Ford

I like my posts like I like my sex. Over with quickly and only pleasing to me.

Thats just how it is when you're alone.

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by ian

i agree with you guys completely on the whole PFJ/PFT thing, but why do you chastise the people that do it so much?

Because when you try to negotiate a cost-of-living adjustment in your contract, every time, without fail, management will tell you 'There are guys that will pay US to do this job and you have the cajones to ask for a raise? There are 200 guys that'll do your job at today's rates and chances are, they'll do it for LESS and even pay for their own 'training costs'"*

I saw it at my last airline.

I can easily imagine that's what's going on behind the scenes at my present employer where we've got subcontractors demanding to fly larger and longer range jet aircraft and pilots that'll strangle their mothers to do it.

Clear as a heavy lead curtain?

Notes:
* It doesn't take $24,000 to train a Beech 1900 pilot. I doubt if it's much more than a few thousand as you can get a 737 type rating for far less. That's probably the 'market price' for an FO seat.

[Maximillian_Jenius]

Originally Posted by ian

i agree with you guys completely on the whole PFJ/PFT thing, but why do you chastise the people that do it so much? its their decison to do and they end up getting what they want even though they paid a lot for it. Just because the aviation community 'frowns upon it' doesnt mean its wrong. Its like you guys have the mentality that since you did it a different way its a rite of passage and they should do it the same way...they dont affect you...so i just dont get it..
Again, im not trying to start anything, and i agree with the people against it, i just dont understand why people have to be so adamant about it.

Because it is bringing down pay,safety and credibilty/respect of the industry. In DE's day you had to prove your worth to be up front in that cockpit with thousand of hours behind you. Now today ANYONE can pay to be up there. I could agree with what you were saying if you were talking about huge academies vs. the FBO route. Which is something else DE is very passionate about and all are free to agree with or not. But PFT/PFJ should be viewed as a huge threat to our profession and the industry at large at all levels.

[ian]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Because when you try to negotiate a cost-of-living adjustment in your contract, every time, without fail, management will tell you 'There are guys that will pay US to do this job and you have the cajones to ask for a raise? There are 200 guys that'll do your job at today's rates and chances are, they'll do it for LESS and even pay for their own 'training costs'"*

I saw it at my last airline.

I can easily imagine that's what's going on behind the scenes at my present employer where we've got subcontractors demanding to fly larger and longer range jet aircraft and pilots that'll strangle their mothers to do it.

Clear as a heavy lead curtain?

Notes:
* It doesn't take $24,000 to train a Beech 1900 pilot. I doubt if it's much more than a few thousand as you can get a 737 type rating for far less. That's probably the 'market price' for an FO seat.

That makes sense then...i just never understood the reasoning before. THanks for clearing it up

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by ian

That makes sense then...i just never understood the reasoning before. THanks for clearing it up

No problem! The more people we save from "The Dark Side", the better.

[Kristie]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Word from one of my pals is that they had called Gulfstream and he was notified that they were 'bid restricted second officers from Pan Am" that got their licenses in order to qualify for a pilot position and had retired recently, which is why they're not on the seniority list.

My pal then looked at the seniority list again and saw no trace of either of these pilots at all so it looks like he was given a load of poop. Generally, even after retirement I'm told that they stay on the pilot records but there is no trace of either of these pilots on that list whatsoever. Even amongst the 'bid restricted second officers'.

Sounds like someone's 'busted'!

they don't even look old enough to retire!

[Grabo172]

"I stated the program 14 months ago with 260 hours, now I have over 1300 hours looking at Captain upgrade in 3 months."
UPDATE
Clay Murphy
Gulfstream International Airlines
Captain

They can't even spell!!!

[Grabo172]

I felt I needed to vent so I sent an email to them. See it attached below.

Hi,

I have a few questions regarding your program.

You are a part 121 carrier, correct? That means you are REQUIRED to have a SIC for all your 121 flights. So instead of hiring a QUALIFIED pilot and paying a decent wage, you sell this position, is this correct?

Just wondering why you are destroying the industry? How are pilot's today supposed to earn a decent living wage when airline management sees programs like this where pilots pay to fill a required position? They argue that "if you don't take this 40% pay cut, we can just hire someone else to fill your spot for 60% less salary (or even pay US) and we'll furlough you". Airline pilots are one of the very very few positions that have LOST wages over the last 2 decades.

I don't know what is worse, the fact that you offer this "Program" or that some people actually are paying to take jobs away from the qualified pilots.

This is from your web site...

"First Officer Program Price $29,684*
*After receiving $2,000 in flight pay, program cost is just $27,684."

WOW!! You'll pay me $2000 to fly for you for how long? That's incredible! You've got to be kidding! And all I have to do is pay you $27, 684! What a deal! (note the sarcasm)

I can remember when pilots used to GET PAID to be a First Officer, and earn a decent living wage at that. Whatever happened to hard work, instructing while getting paid; then one day your dreams come true and you move into a first officer position for an airline and finally can say you made it? All while your employers pay YOU to do a job. If I work for someone, I'd EXPECT to get paid. I wouldn't pay General Electric to get hired as a new engineer, I wouldn't pay a law firm to be brought in as a new associate attorney, what make you think you should demand a pilot to PAY YOU to be a First Officer?

I can't believe your program even exists! I can think of no other legitimate industry that would even fathom a program similar to this (piloting USED TO BE a legitimate industry, until programs like yours came along).

I know you'll probably ignore this email (I'd hope you get at least 1 or 2 of these a day) but I had to write it anyway. As a member of the armed forces and a CFI, I had planned to exit the military and pursue a career as an airline pilot. But thanks to programs like yours, the starting wage for the airlines is less than 1/3 of my military pay! That, in itself, is unbelievable! Thanks for destroying 10 years of hard work!

So, in closing, I would like to thank you and you company for devastating a once prestigious, lucrative, and noble profession!

-Erik Grabowski
CFI/CFII

[desertdog71]

[Kingairer]

thatll show em. we dont need no stinkin badges

[Grabo172]

Their email doesn't work! I got this...

This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification.

Delivery to the following recipients failed.

Robert.Elimeleck@gulfstreamacademy.com


Reporting-MTA: dns;gulfstreamacademy.com
Received-From-MTA: dns;ms-smtp-03-eri0.southeast.rr.com
Arrival-Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 19:47:28 -0500

Final-Recipient: rfc822;Robert.Elimeleck@gulfstreamacademy.com
Action: failed
Status: 5.2.1
X-Display-Name: Elimeleck, Robert

I guess they'd better get a Webmaster First Officer Program and have someone pay them to come run their computer sytems!

[Kingairer]

fly@gulfstreamacademy.com

[Grabo172]

Originally Posted by Kingairer

fly@gulfstreamacademy.com

That's the one I used, but it came back like above?

Hmmmmm?

[sopdan]

Another way to look at PFJ/PFT is to apply it to other job fields. How many people pay a school district $30,000 to have the opportunity to teach? How many people pay for the priviledge to do someone's taxes? etc.

I would bet the answer is zero. Why? Because nobody in their right mind would pay to do something they should be paid to do. Unfortunately, for some reason there are some in the aviation industry that are not in their right mind.