A new flavor of PFJ?

[BrettInLJ]

I was wondering what people here would think of this scenario and how it affects the industry as opposed to a traditional PFJ:

A big academy flight school cuts a deal with a regional airline where the airline will typically hire the graduates of a costly program with very low hours (lets say 600-800). In order to graduate from this program, students have to pay 10's of thousands of dollars more than an equivalent student getting the same or, more likely, better quality of training at a flight school that does not have a deal with the regional. I am going under the assumption that money or some other benefit has changed hands between the academy and the regional, somehow both benefiting from the $$ that the students have forked over.

Now, another pilot with much more experience that did not drop the big dough could only get into the regional as an FO with something like 1200/250 hours. Because the student had to spend a large sum of money for the privlege to get into the FO position earlier, with less experience, does this drive down the industry?

Discuss.

[wheelsup]

Think about why the regionals would take an applicant with lower time but "additional training". My regional takes people from the CAE program with types in the CRJ. I'm pretty sure they do this because if someone can get typed in the CRJ at, say, 400 hours, they *most likely* will pass training at minimal extra cost to the regional.

This lowers the regional's risk with the applicant. If these applicants failed training at said regional more than passing, these programs most likely would not exist (or if they did, they applicants wouldn't be hired as much). I don't think, for the most part, money is being "kicked back" to the regional, IMO.

Out of 10 people in my class, 2 failed out to the tune of somewhere between $20-$25k per person (if they fail out during the sim portion). Both of the people that failed out were prior 121, Colgan and Gulfstream CAPTAINS. Go figure! The lower time 400 guys with types sailed right through.

~wheelsup

[BrettInLJ]

So what you're saying is that by paying for their training, they are lowering the risk factor to the regional because if they wash out, it was at their own expense?

[WAFlyBoy]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

This lowers the regional's risk with the applicant. If these applicants failed training at said regional more than passing, these programs most likely would not exist (or if they did, they applicants wouldn't be hired as much). I don't think, for the most part, money is being "kicked back" to the regional, IMO.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by wheelsup

Both of the people that failed out were prior 121, Colgan and Gulfstream CAPTAINS. Go figure! The lower time 400 guys with types sailed right through.

Very interesting. On a similar note, I recently signed a fella off for a couple of CFI add-ons. He went to.... I think Flight Safety... and started flying the EMB-120 at 350 hours. I don't know if it was the primary training he received or his experiences as a first officer, but he is one of the darn finest pilots I've flown with.

[casey]

Originally Posted by BrettInLJ

So what you're saying is that by paying for their training, they are lowering the risk factor to the regional because if they wash out, it was at their own expense?

no, they are lowering thier risk factor by hiring someone less likely (in theory) to wash out in the first place.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by BrettInLJ

So what you're saying is that by paying for their training, they are lowering the risk factor to the regional because if they wash out, it was at their own expense?

These people aren't paying the regional for any training AT ALL. At my regional, the new hires (bridge program guys included) receive full pay from day one and single occupency hotel.

These bridge programs aren't anything more than you going out and buying, say, 300 hours of multi time to be more competitive. They are just using the $$ to show that they can handle working in a two-crew transport category aircraft to a prospective employer. I think that pretty much anyone can handle that, even at low time, so it's not that big of an accomplishment (flying the CRJ is much easier than flying the seminole, IMO, except maybe for landing the sucker - my nemesis).

However, these lower time guys are missing some other skills that go along with being a pilot, IMO. Flying isn't really about the physical manipulation of the controls...although that is part of it.

~wheelsup

[BrettInLJ]

Originally Posted by casey

no, they are lowering thier risk factor by hiring someone less likely (in theory) to wash out in the first place.

Wouldn't that be the same case with someone who spent a lesser some of money to go get his or her type rating in an RJ? The privlege of getting hired with less hours would still go to the pilot who spent $20k-$30k the said "program", yet the risk factor we are speaking of would now be mitigated in the higher time pilot who got lots of experience instructing, since they paid for thier type rating.

[UAL747400]

Just using UND as an example. They have several airlines that will hire UND grads with lower mins. Air wisconsin, horizon, american eagle just to name a few.

UND isnt expensive though. Its very very very cheap. Significantly cheaper than the reg. college/FBO options I had back home. Flying newer equipment among a few other things no less. I dont think we get type rated in the CRJ though. I havent looked deeper into our CRJ class though, so I could be mistaken.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by BrettInLJ

Wouldn't that be the same case with someone who spent a lesser some of money to go get his or her type rating in an RJ? The privlege of getting hired with less hours would still go to the pilot who spent $20k-$30k the said "program", yet the risk factor we are speaking of would now be mitigated in the higher time pilot who got lots of experience instructing, since they paid for thier type rating.

I don't understand this at all. Could you explain the statements a bit better (not a stab at you, I just can't follow it)?

~wheelsup

[BrettInLJ]

Originally Posted by UAL747400

Just using UND as an example. They have several airlines that will hire UND grads with lower mins. Air wisconsin, horizon, american eagle just to name a few.

UND isnt expensive though. Its very very very cheap. Significantly cheaper than the reg. college/FBO options I had back home. Flying newer equipment among a few other things no less. I dont think we get type rated in the CRJ though. I havent looked deeper into our CRJ class though, so I could be mistaken.

I have no problem with this scenario. If someone wants to hire someone else because they percieved that they have very high quality training that is fine. It's if they give preference to a school because of a high-cost program rather than the fact that their training is superior.

Pilot 1: 800/200, most of both times as instruction given in the past year.
Pilot 2: 600/120, most of multi time done as shared time-building, no instruction given, dropped $25k on the program.

Now, pilot 1 could not get the job without having over 1200 hours. Lets say pilot 1 got a CRJ type rating (I assume they cost much less than $25k, correct me if I'm wrong). And on top of it, his or her training and experience are probably better than Pilot 2.

To me, something just doesn't seem right that Pilot 2 gets the job because they spent a lump sum of money for timebuilding and the type rating over a couple months. I really want to know if I should not have a bad taste in my mouth over this... it just doesn't seem right.

[BrettInLJ]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

I don't understand this at all. Could you explain the statements a bit better (not a stab at you, I just can't follow it)?

~wheelsup

The logic was that since the program pilot has the CRJ type rating, they are less likely to drop out of training and cost the airline money. That is why they are hired with lower hours.

Now if the pilot who did not buy his multi time as shared hood time goes out and gets a CRJ type rating, then the airline should look at him as low risk as well. And on top of it, his or her greater hours are from instructing, not shared timebuilding. Why should the program pilot be given the preference?

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by BrettInLJ

The logic was that since the program pilot has the CRJ type rating, they are less likely to drop out of training and cost the airline money. That is why they are hired with lower hours.

Hours don't matter at all. They just have lower time because if they had high time they wouldn't of done the program (most likely). I'm not sure if there are any stats as to the typical hour accumulation up to the point of the type or not, but I'm guessing on the whole these people have less TT.

Now if the pilot who did not buy his multi time as shared hood time goes out and gets a CRJ type rating, then the airline should look at him as low risk as well.

They don't? I would think having a type would put them equal with the other guy with the type. Are you saying airlines DON'T look at them equally? What are you basing that on (ie stats?)?

And on top of it, his or her greater hours are from instructing, not shared timebuilding. Why should the program pilot be given the preference?

I'm still missing something. BOTH pilots have type ratings? Are there any stats that say the lower time pilots are hired over and above higher time, but still type rated pilots?

~wheelsup

[BrettInLJ]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

They don't? I would think having a type would put them equal with the other guy with the type. Are you saying airlines DON'T look at them equally? What are you basing that on (ie stats?)?



I'm still missing something. BOTH pilots have type ratings? Are there any stats that say the lower time pilots are hired over and above higher time, but still type rated pilots?

~wheelsup

I'm basing that on non-program pilots getting a form letter in the mail stating that their minimums are XXXX hours, while program pilots are getting hired at the same time with less hours than he has (refer to the other thread that you had responded to about this). Now, I am going out on a limb to assume that he would have got this letter with the CRJ type rating. Can't be sure about that.

[DE727UPS]

"I really want to know if I should not have a bad taste in my mouth over this... it just doesn't seem right"

It doesn't seem right to me, either, but the airlines seem to like it so that's the way it is. Yeah, any idiot who pays 25K for an RJ type rating and then goes to RJ airline ground school is not going to have too much trouble getting through. Of course, back in the day, getting a type rating meant you were ready, and expected, to be the PIC is said aircraft with pax behind you and an F/O beside you. But I digress...

The real question is why be in such a big hurry? So you spend 25K to save six months or a year for a job that pays 20K a year. What kind of sense does that make?

This business has become more about money talks than integrity and honor. Most of you will laugh at that but I remember when earning the job and paying your dues meant something. Nobody ever heard of buying your way in back then. You just worked your way up. 1500/200 and you got a 135 freight job and 2000/500 and you got on at a regional.

That's the way it was...

And I liked it.

[Texasspilot]

If you guys really wanna waste 25,000 on something theres some 18 and up BYOB bars down the highway from me. I guaruntee you that if you walk in there with 25K you'll be telling stories about it the rest of your life.

[meritflyer]

So, would this type of training be advisable or not? It is obvious the type rating programs are a higher end training. I know several schools offer type programs. If its what the airlines like, why not? That is where we are trying to go right? Than why not train ourselves to meet their hiring preferences.

Thoughts?

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by BrettInLJ

I'm basing that on non-program pilots getting a form letter in the mail stating that their minimums are XXXX hours, while program pilots are getting hired at the same time with less hours than he has (refer to the other thread that you had responded to about this).

You're comparing apples to oranges. Kell didn't have a type. If he had a type, and was turned down, your argument would have some merit...

Now, I am going out on a limb to assume that he would have got this letter with the CRJ type rating. Can't be sure about that.

A limb? More like a twig ...

I understand where Kell is coming from. *IF* somewhere down the line, say in 5 years, EVERY airline required a type rating to apply (a la SOUTHWEST) the cost of entering the profession would increase, and he sees that as unfair. I do too, but there isn't a thing we can do it about. As long as the airlines are able to fill groundschools, that's all they care about. On the flipside, you will get there much faster-on the order of 12-24 months. It doesn't matter you say? Well, let's say a regional CA tops out at say, $70k. If you get to the job 1 year faster, that's one more year of making $70k vs. $15k as a CFI. How is that bad for the individual? Again, I'm not agreeing with the practice, just playing devils advocate. HOPEFULLY the world of aviation won't come to this, because it would severely limit the amount of people that could work their way up.

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

You just worked your way up. 1500/200 and you got a 135 freight job and 2000/500 and you got on at a regional...

...and then had to PFT to work there. I believe COMAIR, Chiago Express, and COEX were a few. I'm sure there are more. Personally, I'm glad the unions were able to kill that idea. The world of commercial aviation is quite a bit different then it used to be. However I'm guessing there were airlines that weren't PFT, but they probably had lines out the doors to get in there . No different than today...(except it's become a "training contract" vs. paying up front).

[FlyChicaga]

While these programs will prepare you for the rigors of airline ground school, the sim sessions, and basic line flying, I don't see any of these schools teaching pilots to think and fly outside the box. Airlines like them, because they see a desire (you put down lots of money) and trainability (reduce their training costs and put it on you). Therefore, they win. Problem is, if you don't learn from the beginning just piloting, without all the fancy checklists, callouts, etc., then you are at a great disadvantage IMHO. When it comes down to it, the RJ (CRJ, ERJ, FRJ, any of them) are all just airplanes. When the crap hits the fan, you need to have some basic flying fundamental knowledge and skill to fall back on. If your training only consisted of learning to fly the "airline way" and to attain a CRJ type in 500 hours, you aren't getting some things that could really help you someday.

When it comes down to it, I don't think the hours will matter much, but it is the foundation of your training and experience from the early stages of learning that will really determine your success in the airlines. I'm not talking success as in getting through training. I'm talking success in being a qualified, well-versed, and effective crewmember.

[meritflyer]

There is an academy here in Arizona that offers a 10-week RJ systems and type rating program through CAE for about $27,000. Why would this be such a bad option for the 500-600/100me pilot? You would get to your job quicker and get moving up the ladder, so to speak. If you can train hard at a good academy, get you basic fundamentals down then proceed to advanced jet training - I really dont see the bad part of this. There are accelerated ways of doing virtually everything from medical school to a high school diploma. Why would it be any different for aviation?

If you get to the airlines a year quicker by not having to CFI or timebuild, you get your seniority number, healthcare benefits, hours, ect. I think that if a pilot has quality basic skills, the type rating programs, less the cost, are a viable option to an airline job.

Thoughts?

[Doug Taylor]

Does anyone bother to read the actual website anymore?

[meritflyer]

There are more ways than one to an airline job. I think the general idea portrayed on this website is you MUST

1. Get your ratings (CMEL - CFIIME).
2. Instruct, instruct, instruct.
3. Apply, apply, apply.

I think there is more than one way to achieve the ultimate goal of an airline job that is still challenging and effective. Its as if you dont go the through the steps I listed above - you suck! I think that there are MANY extraordinary pilots who dont follow this route. The type programs seem like one of them.

[Doug Taylor]

Are you 'trolling'?

If so, you really don't want to troll. It's not pretty and very humiliating.

[mtsu_av8er]

Merit - don't forget Lloyd's "Beat Feet to The Right Seat" program!!!

I might have to go ferry an Aztec from Little Rock in a week or so - For $1200, you can ride along, talk to ATC, fly, and watch for traffic!!

[Doug Taylor]

Lloyd, don't be so Wal Mart about it. Gotta think like "Sharper Image", bro!

I'll offer the program for $1,500, I'll keep $300 as a 'administrative fee' and then forward you $1,200 free 'n clear. So when our customer gets himself burned, I have deniability because I only acted as an agent and you'll have protection because you're simply a sub-contractor.

[FlyChicaga]

Yes, it seems with "meritflyer" we have a rolling trend here with posts.