Refusing To ##### Myself - Page 4

CapnJim · January 10th, 2006, 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonnyb

First of all, the Fracs. have union representation. I've never been or plan on being ANYONE's "personal servant" (what the hell is that all about?). Decade to upgrade? You don't know what you're talking about. 2 years flight instructing? Maybe more common now but still not always necessary depending on one's contacts; I instructed for 8 1/2 mos.

I think you're a good dude Jim, but talking about what you don't know much or anything about, is lame.

You know, I shouldn't have lumped the Fracts in with the corprate jobs; it looks like I'm saying that Fracts have no union representation and have to do secretarial work. My bad- those points were for the corprate end. But from what I've heard upgrade times at the fractionals are not good at all, and I've heard tell about many corporate pilots who double as secretaries.
121 time not important? Not required perhaps, but will certainly make you more competitive.

So I'm not just talking out of my ass here jonnyb- I should have made those distinctions more visible.
Besides, those details are beside the point-- the main idea is that regionals can be a good choice for someone, although I can see that they're not for everyone.

NJA_Capt · January 10th, 2006, 17:08

Reference fractional:

Quote:

Originally Posted by CapnJim

… if you don't mind never being home…

16 days off per month

Quote:

having little to no job security…

NetJets total fleet (600+ a/c) is equal to the worlds 2nd largest airline

Quote:

no union representation…

IBT Airline Division Local 1108

Quote:

being a personal servant….

Not even close

Quote:

can tolerate a decade to upgrade….

OK…..currently 4 years. It has been as low as 2 weeks. There have been close to 100 Capt bids since the new contract came out.

Quote:

as well as spending 2 more years of your career flight instructing to get the mins, by all means go fly corporate or fractional

OK. You got me there. No way around the 2500 hour rule.

*************************
Reference Airline:

Quote:

Or you can make peanuts your first year….

First yr FO at NetJets $47K.

Quote:

good pay as captain after a few years

First yr Capt at NetJets $52K

Quote:

have a good QOL, nice benefits, union representation…

Got it, got it, got it.

Quote:

121 time

Don’t want it.

Quote:

…sleep in a Doubletree

Well, DT is our third choice down, but not too bad.

Quote:

…take your wife to Paris, 1st class, for FREE.

Got it……Plus the hotel is free too. How ‘bout yours?

Quote:

some people have different experiences and for some people those are better options.

I agree

Quote:

My point is that at the 1000-2500TT level, you can't have it all.

Quote:

I really agree

Quote:

Why would anyone apply for the Majors?

I wonder that myself

CapnJim · January 10th, 2006, 17:15

Wow. Guess you failed to read the post just above yours, huh NJA? Might have saved you a lot of typing.

All good points though, although I should point out that first year pay for Captains in the regionals is about $60/yr.

Did you miss that in my other post too?

Texasspilot · January 10th, 2006, 17:32

Or you could jump in with both feet...end up tied to a regional. Get paid crap, have few days off, hope you upgrade before they go bankrupt or furlough you so that you can put your resume in with a stack of 7,000 others. Of course if they do furlough you, you'll have thousands of hours of 121 SIC time which isn't really looked at very well by many corporate places you could try to fly single engine freight but many companies would think twice after you've been sitting in an RJ for a couple years. You could of course apply at the next regional and hope for a job and the process repeats.

BUT.....................................thats neither here nor there.

At one point there wasn't as much job security in the corporate field as there was in the airlines. But with the recent FlyI happenings, bankruptcys and thousands of pilots on furlough I don't know how valid that is anymore. Also most corporate pilots are aircraft managers as well...not secretaries. This means they call the shots on MX and other issues with the aircraft which makes it even better.

B767Driver · January 10th, 2006, 17:40

Jim's got it right..IMO...when he talks about the "crossover" point where a regional becomes better than some other jobs. It's probably around the 5 year point where the pay/schedule/seniority starts to improve.

I've done several different types of civilian flying...and I like airline flying the best. Fractional flying may be more secure, but airline flying is better.

My reasons:

1. Ability to travel anywhere in the world free. Maybe it's not a biggy with some people...for me...I love being able to show my kids places they would otherwise never be able to visit.

2. Fying big airplanes. When I used to fly in and out of coporate FBO's, every pilot on the ramp would stop to watch an L1011/B747 takeoff. When a Citation/KingAir would come and go...nobody paid any attention. People might say an airplane is an airplane...not so with me. They all have their own DNA, charactertics and charm. Well, some have more charm than others. Personally, I get a kick out of flying something that weighs over 400,000#.

3. The infrastructure provided by Part 121. Some Part 135/Part 91 Sub (k) operators have an airline like infrastructure...but having a dispatch center, crew accomodations/tracking, meteorology department, etc...well, it's nice to have those levels of support.

Those 3 issues are huge, however, in order to put up with a lot of crap that goes along with airline flying. Namely, poor customer service, hubs, financial instability, irresponsible management.

CapnJim · January 10th, 2006, 17:41

B767-
Once again, we find ourselves in agreement.

Texasspilot-
I guess you're not reading my posts either. BTW, I have 22 days off this month, thanks to some crafty bidding. And I usually have 16. Crappy pay? Only the first year, as I've pointed out several times. Again, 1st year CA pay-$60K. Two to three year upgrade. Furloughs? Fact of life everywhere. If you think you're immune you may have a nasty suprise one day.

ONCE AGAIN- It's not my intent to bag on the fracts. It's a good job! I just prefer the 'better' regionals, for reasons I have already throroughly delineated.

NJA_Capt · January 10th, 2006, 17:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by CapnJim

Guess you failed to read the post just above yours, huh NJA? Might have saved you a lot of typing.

You post wasn't there when I started typing. But, now some points of reference are available so others will not be mislead.

Quote:

although I should point out that first year pay for Captains in the regionals is about $60/yr.

Just a point of reference. Nothing more nothing less.
But, it does depend on the baseline for Captains pay. Whether Capt pay is based as time in position or years of service. Ours is based on years of service, meaning a 2 year FO would start at 2nd year Capt pay. 1st yr capt pay at NJA depends on schedule either $52,500 or $62,300.

CapnJim · January 10th, 2006, 17:51

I wan't offended, NJA. I appreciate the info; there were some details I didn't know about fractionals that I do now.

At any rate, we're getting bogged down in the details. Granted, it was because of my crappy post lumping the fracts with the corporate guys, for which I have already atoned, but the essential arithmetic is still valid:

The 'better' regionals are a good option. Not the only one, of course; different people have different needs and wants. But it is my no means '#######' yourself to work for a place like ASA or ExpressJet. Mesa and pinnacle on the other hand...

GaTechKid · January 10th, 2006, 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by CapnJim

The 'better' regionals are a good option. Not the only one, of course; different people have different needs and wants. But it is my no means '#######' yourself to work for a place like ASA or ExpressJet. Mesa and pinnacle on the other hand...

This made me think of a quote I remember reading in an aviation forum:

Having the best regional contract is like winning the special olympics. It sure feels good but in the end you're still retarded.

Alright, back to ####### myself out as I study for the systems test.

FlyChicaga · January 10th, 2006, 19:32

Just different strokes for different folks, that's all. We can't all be happy with the same jobs, cars, houses, etc. etc. etc... So one man's hell is another man's heaven. I, myself, enjoy working where I do for the airlines, even with the current turmoil. I can't say I will steer clear of corporate/fractional aviation forever, but at the moment I'm sticking with what makes me happy. We can argue until the world ends about which is a better job, but it's pointless, since it's all personal opinion and perspectives.

If every man in the world wanted blondes, who would date the brunettes? We all have differing tastes.

CapnJim · January 10th, 2006, 19:58

Brilliantly put FlyChicaga, that sums it up perfectly.

jonnyb · January 10th, 2006, 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyChicaga

Just different strokes for different folks, that's all. We can't all be happy with the same jobs, cars, houses, etc. etc. etc... So one man's hell is another man's heaven. I, myself, enjoy working where I do for the airlines, even with the current turmoil. I can't say I will steer clear of corporate/fractional aviation forever, but at the moment I'm sticking with what makes me happy. We can argue until the world ends about which is a better job, but it's pointless, since it's all personal opinion and perspectives.

If every man in the world wanted blondes, who would date the brunettes? We all have differing tastes.

Well said dude.

Bigey · January 10th, 2006, 21:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonnyb

First of all, the Fracs. have union representation. I've never been or plan on being ANYONE's "personal servant" (what the hell is that all about?). Decade to upgrade? You don't know what you're talking about. 2 years flight instructing? Maybe more common now but still not always necessary depending on one's contacts; I instructed for 8 1/2 mos.

I think you're a good dude Jim, but talking about what you don't know much or anything about, is lame.

A.....who cares. Not me or anyone I know.

Now, there's a definite advantage! That would be nice. Guess I'll just have to buy a ticket. Dang! (not being sarcastic by the way, I really mean this).

You make some valid points Jim. The pay for equipment is the no brain kicker for me, so I'll never recommend the "regional" route. But I understand where you're coming from. I also understand that you don't know nearly as much as you should about the other facets of aviation to make a truly informed decision. But hey, it's already been made and you're enjoying yourself (that is, when your incompetent "captain" isn't trying to kill you by "going below").

Bottom line; many young people don't get as informed as they should when they make big decisions like this. They do what they want. If someone gets an opportunity to fly a "big" regional jet fresh out of flight instructing, many just do it without really thinking it through. Plain and simple.

Myself personally, if i could get into Corp Aviation, i would love to. From what i hear from our family friend he loves it to death!

Although, my very end goal is to fly for an airline, ideas might change once i experience (if possible) corporate aviation vs. airline (if possible) flying.

As of now though, they all seem like possibilities for me. Airlines (1) Corporate (2) Military (3).

If i was able to choose, that's how i'd go as of now. Stuff might change, never know!

wheelsup · January 11th, 2006, 00:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by NJA_Capt

Ours is based on years of service, meaning a 2 year FO would start at 2nd year Capt pay.

I'm sure there's a select few out there, but most airlines' pay are also driven off of this model.

IOW a 3 year f/o goes to 3 year CA pay when upgraded.

subpilot · January 11th, 2006, 14:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by wheelsup

I'm sure there's a select few out there, but most airlines' pay are also driven off of this model.

IOW a 3 year f/o goes to 3 year CA pay when upgraded.

I was always wondering this. Thanks

CapnJim · January 11th, 2006, 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by wheelsup

I'm sure there's a select few out there, but most airlines' pay are also driven off of this model.

IOW a 3 year f/o goes to 3 year CA pay when upgraded.

Express is based on the same model. Assuing I upgrade two years from now, I will make $67K+ 1st year Capt., 3rd Year of Service.

PFactor · January 11th, 2006, 16:15

I just turned down an offer to interview with Pinnicale. Within moments I recieved an email asking me to explain why I decided to pass on their interview invitation. Here is my response,

PHigh@nwairlink.com wrote:

Robert, can you please tell me why you made this decision. Be as blunt as you like.

Paola,

I think most pilots dream of flying for the airlines at some point in their career training. Unfortunately, somewhere down the line, the airlines have come to the conclusion that they can pay dirt wages for FO's and get away with it because of a pilots love of flying. I do not blame the airlines entirely, as passengers want to travel for low fairs, operating cost are rising all the time, and there seems to be an abundance of new hires that are supported by mom and dad and can afford to work for next to nothing. However, the more I analyze the situation, it seems foolish to pursue the airline career path, no matter how much I would love to fly for the airlines. Especially since I am seeking to stay at a company as a long term employee. I have listed the reasons for my decision as per your request, and I would like to thank you for the opportunity to both interview, as well as read my rant. I truly hope the industry wakes up on day, as they are losing many dedicated employees that are now forced to seek other avenues of employment.

1) Northwest is in the toilet
2) FO pay is ridiculously low
3) the interview process is intrusive and unrealistic considering the low wages offered
4) I have read the interview gouges and cannot believe the type of questions asked . Do these interviewers realize most applicants fly piston engine aircraft? After 4 years of college, 40K in training costs, and 2 yrs flight instructing, I refuse to subject myself to an interview process that will most likely lead to a low paying, unsecured future due to a poorly managed industry.

Texasspilot · January 11th, 2006, 16:17

Capn are you figuring in any reserve months in that or just averaging 100hrs a month right after upgrade?

PF thats both funny and sad.

The letter I wrote to XJET was a little less harsh but was along the lines of I felt that with the potential loss of aircraft next year as well as the low wages for the first couple of years now is not the best time to come into the airline.

CapnJim · January 11th, 2006, 17:34

Pfactor- God bless you. We need about 10,000 more just like you.

Texasspilot- I based the pay on hourly X 85hrs/month X 12 mos. Our min guarantee is 75, but with overs and reserve coverage we realistically earn more. 100 would be too much, 75 not enough. The actual computed number was ~$68, but I wanted to figure a little lower for realism. Sound fair?

Also, after OT, vacation, profit sharing, and line values, I made about $25.6 1st year pay. Still terrible, but better than most.

Texasspilot · January 11th, 2006, 17:48

Yah i was just wonderin cause i was figuring 4 year upgrade at 80 hours and 57 an hour I was gettin around 55K a year. I guess my hourly rates off.

Alchemy · January 11th, 2006, 18:33

4 year upgrade at Expressjet? Ha. After Continental removes half of the aircraft from our fleet we'll be lucky to have a 20 year upgrade if we're not on the street.

Quote:

If withdrawing 69 aircraft saves us money, why didn’t we do it sooner and why not transition all the regional jet flying to a lower-cost operator?

Under the terms of the agreement, this is the earliest we could take action.
The 69 aircraft we’re withdrawing are the most we’re allowed to withdraw at this time. Our only other option is to terminate the entire agreement with XJT. If XJT is able to lower its costs to a competitive level over time, we want them to continue flying the remaining aircraft for us. Ultimately, we must achieve competitive rates for all our
regional jet capacity.

Continental will "transistion" as many of these aircraft to a "lower cost operator" as soon as they can.

CapnJim · January 11th, 2006, 18:46

Well, Alchemy, what can I say but "I hope you're wrong"?

Half? 69 aircraft is 25%. That's one quarter. Not that it changes your essential point, just that things are not as terrible as all that. The name of the game is "Best decision based on all the information available", not "Run around like chickens with our heads cut off." Steady on, my friend.

What you are quoting is company literatue put out during time of contract negotiation, and should be viewed in that light. I'm sure you will remember that when our orignal contract was negotiated Mesa was right there champing at the bit, but we got the bid. Given CAL is more profitable now, what has changed? I think thier desire is to shift more flying to the 73's and away from regional jets.

Mind you, this is all conjecture. We'll know what's going to happen for sure by the end of the year, at which time you are free to tell me "I told you so!" I may not hear you though, since I will be running around like a chicken with my head cut off.

Alchemy · January 11th, 2006, 18:58

I hope I'm wrong too man! By saying half I mean that I believe they will cut the Expressjet ERJ fleet in half when they can.....69 is the most they can decide to remove right now, and it wouldn't suprise me at all to see another 69 get the axe. I don't consider myself a pessimist either....I never figured CAL would do this to us. I always thought they would probably award any new Regional growth to carriers other than expressjet, but never believed they would actually try to slide the aircraft we operate to another provider. Continental truly only cares about the bottom line right now....look who they picked to do the turboprop flying, COLGAN (no offense to you guys at Colgan).

I still can't believe we gave up on the turboprops.

CapnJim · January 11th, 2006, 19:11

There's no question but that our days are numbered, but I may be alone in thinking that's a good thing! All this regional undercutting is hurting the airlines as a whole, and although we work at one of the best ones, were not immune. It was great while the going was rough: we got lots of flying and the airlines got thier fat, lethargic asses saved from Chap. 13. But now that there's some relief, we can't expect to be saved under the same umbrealla.

Express is still a good company. All our problems are caused by mainline animosity, hubris, and greed. Ever see a 75 wait for rampers? Me either. I believe the future of Express is not with Continental, and not with 50 seat jets. Given our established reationship with Embraer, I think our future lies in 170 and 190 seat aircraft, operating as a top-shelf national. BUt now, I am afraid I have stepped about as far into the realm of fantasy as I am willing to go for one evening. See you on the soup line!

Bigey · January 11th, 2006, 22:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by CapnJim

There's no question but that our days are numbered, but I may be alone in thinking that's a good thing! All this regional undercutting is hurting the airlines as a whole, and although we work at one of the best ones, were not immune. It was great while the going was rough: we got lots of flying and the airlines got thier fat, lethargic asses saved from Chap. 13. But now that there's some relief, we can't expect to be saved under the same umbrealla.

Express is still a good company. All our problems are caused by mainline animosity, hubris, and greed. Ever see a 75 wait for rampers? Me either. I believe the future of Express is not with Continental, and not with 50 seat jets. Given our established reationship with Embraer, I think our future lies in 170 and 190 seat aircraft, operating as a top-shelf national. BUt now, I am afraid I have stepped about as far into the realm of fantasy as I am willing to go for one evening. See you on the soup line!

Haha soup line.

Well if Xjet breaks off to become a national do you mean an airline such as Midwest? Would it fit into the same category?

Also, if they put the 170/190 in the fleet, i hope it's for mainline pay. I saw Jetblue's payrates for the 190 and it looks pretty disappointing.

January 10th, 2006, 19:32	#85
FlyChicaga Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 4,833	Just different strokes for different folks, that's all. We can't all be happy with the same jobs, cars, houses, etc. etc. etc... So one man's hell is another man's heaven. I, myself, enjoy working where I do for the airlines, even with the current turmoil. I can't say I will steer clear of corporate/fractional aviation forever, but at the moment I'm sticking with what makes me happy. We can argue until the world ends about which is a better job, but it's pointless, since it's all personal opinion and perspectives. If every man in the world wanted blondes, who would date the brunettes? We all have differing tastes. __________________ "Anyone can do the job when things are going right. In this business we play for keeps." Ernest K. Gann

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

January 10th, 2006, 17:15	#78
CapnJim Old Skool Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: G-town, Near D-town. In T-state... er... whatever Posts: 4,499	Wow. Guess you failed to read the post just above yours, huh NJA? Might have saved you a lot of typing. All good points though, although I should point out that first year pay for Captains in the regionals is about $60/yr. Did you miss that in my other post too?

January 10th, 2006, 17:32	#79
Texasspilot Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 2,080	Or you could jump in with both feet...end up tied to a regional. Get paid crap, have few days off, hope you upgrade before they go bankrupt or furlough you so that you can put your resume in with a stack of 7,000 others. Of course if they do furlough you, you'll have thousands of hours of 121 SIC time which isn't really looked at very well by many corporate places you could try to fly single engine freight but many companies would think twice after you've been sitting in an RJ for a couple years. You could of course apply at the next regional and hope for a job and the process repeats. BUT.....................................thats neither here nor there. At one point there wasn't as much job security in the corporate field as there was in the airlines. But with the recent FlyI happenings, bankruptcys and thousands of pilots on furlough I don't know how valid that is anymore. Also most corporate pilots are aircraft managers as well...not secretaries. This means they call the shots on MX and other issues with the aircraft which makes it even better.

January 10th, 2006, 17:40	#80
B767Driver Old Skool Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,888	Jim's got it right..IMO...when he talks about the "crossover" point where a regional becomes better than some other jobs. It's probably around the 5 year point where the pay/schedule/seniority starts to improve. I've done several different types of civilian flying...and I like airline flying the best. Fractional flying may be more secure, but airline flying is better. My reasons: 1. Ability to travel anywhere in the world free. Maybe it's not a biggy with some people...for me...I love being able to show my kids places they would otherwise never be able to visit. 2. Fying big airplanes. When I used to fly in and out of coporate FBO's, every pilot on the ramp would stop to watch an L1011/B747 takeoff. When a Citation/KingAir would come and go...nobody paid any attention. People might say an airplane is an airplane...not so with me. They all have their own DNA, charactertics and charm. Well, some have more charm than others. Personally, I get a kick out of flying something that weighs over 400,000#. 3. The infrastructure provided by Part 121. Some Part 135/Part 91 Sub (k) operators have an airline like infrastructure...but having a dispatch center, crew accomodations/tracking, meteorology department, etc...well, it's nice to have those levels of support. Those 3 issues are huge, however, in order to put up with a lot of crap that goes along with airline flying. Namely, poor customer service, hubs, financial instability, irresponsible management.

January 10th, 2006, 17:41	#81
CapnJim Old Skool Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: G-town, Near D-town. In T-state... er... whatever Posts: 4,499	B767- Once again, we find ourselves in agreement. Texasspilot- I guess you're not reading my posts either. BTW, I have 22 days off this month, thanks to some crafty bidding. And I usually have 16. Crappy pay? Only the first year, as I've pointed out several times. Again, 1st year CA pay-$60K. Two to three year upgrade. Furloughs? Fact of life everywhere. If you think you're immune you may have a nasty suprise one day. ONCE AGAIN- It's not my intent to bag on the fracts. It's a good job! I just prefer the 'better' regionals, for reasons I have already throroughly delineated.

January 10th, 2006, 17:51	#83
CapnJim Old Skool Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: G-town, Near D-town. In T-state... er... whatever Posts: 4,499	I wan't offended, NJA. I appreciate the info; there were some details I didn't know about fractionals that I do now. At any rate, we're getting bogged down in the details. Granted, it was because of my crappy post lumping the fracts with the corporate guys, for which I have already atoned, but the essential arithmetic is still valid: The 'better' regionals are a good option. Not the only one, of course; different people have different needs and wants. But it is my no means '#######' yourself to work for a place like ASA or ExpressJet. Mesa and pinnacle on the other hand...

January 10th, 2006, 19:58	#86
CapnJim Old Skool Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: G-town, Near D-town. In T-state... er... whatever Posts: 4,499	Brilliantly put FlyChicaga, that sums it up perfectly.

January 11th, 2006, 16:15	#92
PFactor Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 135	I just turned down an offer to interview with Pinnicale. Within moments I recieved an email asking me to explain why I decided to pass on their interview invitation. Here is my response, PHigh@nwairlink.com wrote: Robert, can you please tell me why you made this decision. Be as blunt as you like. Paola, I think most pilots dream of flying for the airlines at some point in their career training. Unfortunately, somewhere down the line, the airlines have come to the conclusion that they can pay dirt wages for FO's and get away with it because of a pilots love of flying. I do not blame the airlines entirely, as passengers want to travel for low fairs, operating cost are rising all the time, and there seems to be an abundance of new hires that are supported by mom and dad and can afford to work for next to nothing. However, the more I analyze the situation, it seems foolish to pursue the airline career path, no matter how much I would love to fly for the airlines. Especially since I am seeking to stay at a company as a long term employee. I have listed the reasons for my decision as per your request, and I would like to thank you for the opportunity to both interview, as well as read my rant. I truly hope the industry wakes up on day, as they are losing many dedicated employees that are now forced to seek other avenues of employment. 1) Northwest is in the toilet 2) FO pay is ridiculously low 3) the interview process is intrusive and unrealistic considering the low wages offered 4) I have read the interview gouges and cannot believe the type of questions asked . Do these interviewers realize most applicants fly piston engine aircraft? After 4 years of college, 40K in training costs, and 2 yrs flight instructing, I refuse to subject myself to an interview process that will most likely lead to a low paying, unsecured future due to a poorly managed industry.

January 11th, 2006, 16:17	#93
Texasspilot Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 2,080	Capn are you figuring in any reserve months in that or just averaging 100hrs a month right after upgrade? PF thats both funny and sad. The letter I wrote to XJET was a little less harsh but was along the lines of I felt that with the potential loss of aircraft next year as well as the low wages for the first couple of years now is not the best time to come into the airline.

January 11th, 2006, 17:34	#94
CapnJim Old Skool Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: G-town, Near D-town. In T-state... er... whatever Posts: 4,499	Pfactor- God bless you. We need about 10,000 more just like you. Texasspilot- I based the pay on hourly X 85hrs/month X 12 mos. Our min guarantee is 75, but with overs and reserve coverage we realistically earn more. 100 would be too much, 75 not enough. The actual computed number was ~$68, but I wanted to figure a little lower for realism. Sound fair? Also, after OT, vacation, profit sharing, and line values, I made about $25.6 1st year pay. Still terrible, but better than most.

January 11th, 2006, 17:48	#95
Texasspilot Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 2,080	Yah i was just wonderin cause i was figuring 4 year upgrade at 80 hours and 57 an hour I was gettin around 55K a year. I guess my hourly rates off.

January 11th, 2006, 18:46	#97
CapnJim Old Skool Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: G-town, Near D-town. In T-state... er... whatever Posts: 4,499	Well, Alchemy, what can I say but "I hope you're wrong"? Half? 69 aircraft is 25%. That's one quarter. Not that it changes your essential point, just that things are not as terrible as all that. The name of the game is "Best decision based on all the information available", not "Run around like chickens with our heads cut off." Steady on, my friend. What you are quoting is company literatue put out during time of contract negotiation, and should be viewed in that light. I'm sure you will remember that when our orignal contract was negotiated Mesa was right there champing at the bit, but we got the bid. Given CAL is more profitable now, what has changed? I think thier desire is to shift more flying to the 73's and away from regional jets. Mind you, this is all conjecture. We'll know what's going to happen for sure by the end of the year, at which time you are free to tell me "I told you so!" I may not hear you though, since I will be running around like a chicken with my head cut off.

January 11th, 2006, 18:58	#98
Alchemy Old Skool Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Austin, TX, USA Posts: 1,800	I hope I'm wrong too man! By saying half I mean that I believe they will cut the Expressjet ERJ fleet in half when they can.....69 is the most they can decide to remove right now, and it wouldn't suprise me at all to see another 69 get the axe. I don't consider myself a pessimist either....I never figured CAL would do this to us. I always thought they would probably award any new Regional growth to carriers other than expressjet, but never believed they would actually try to slide the aircraft we operate to another provider. Continental truly only cares about the bottom line right now....look who they picked to do the turboprop flying, COLGAN (no offense to you guys at Colgan). I still can't believe we gave up on the turboprops.

January 11th, 2006, 19:11	#99
CapnJim Old Skool Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: G-town, Near D-town. In T-state... er... whatever Posts: 4,499	There's no question but that our days are numbered, but I may be alone in thinking that's a good thing! All this regional undercutting is hurting the airlines as a whole, and although we work at one of the best ones, were not immune. It was great while the going was rough: we got lots of flying and the airlines got thier fat, lethargic asses saved from Chap. 13. But now that there's some relief, we can't expect to be saved under the same umbrealla. Express is still a good company. All our problems are caused by mainline animosity, hubris, and greed. Ever see a 75 wait for rampers? Me either. I believe the future of Express is not with Continental, and not with 50 seat jets. Given our established reationship with Embraer, I think our future lies in 170 and 190 seat aircraft, operating as a top-shelf national. BUt now, I am afraid I have stepped about as far into the realm of fantasy as I am willing to go for one evening. See you on the soup line!