Upgrade time in airlines.

[Aero_Engineer]

I always had this question in my mind that how long does it take for a new hire at one of the legacy careers to upgrade to the left (captain) seat of a widebody aircraft, bigger aircraft in general. Let's take Continental for example how long do you think it will take for the new hires right now to move to the left seat of a 757 or 767.
I am just curious and I would love some answers from you pros out there. I appreciate your comments on this.

Armen

[Doug Taylor]

Widely varies.

Let's take United for example. I had a friend that got hired there in 1995 and was a 737 captain by 1999. I lost touch with him, but he still might be a captain or he may have been downgraded, who knows.

I could hold 737-200 captain in 2001 and but now I'm probably 400 seniority numbers away from MD-88 captain.

Upgrade times are very tidal. When the industry makes the inevitable upswing, upgrade times decrease. When the industry makes the requisite downturn, upgrade times increase. Ebb and flow.

Lots of guys say "Hey, go to Zantop because they've got three year captains!" but by the time you actually get there, it might be a decade. Seriously.

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Mr. Taylor, Is there a reason why you decided to switch to the MD aircraft as FO instead of upgrading to 737 CA?

[jdflight]

Who's Mr. Taylor?

[Doug Taylor]

[ QUOTE ]
Mr. Taylor, Is there a reason why you decided to switch to the MD aircraft as FO instead of upgrading to 737 CA?

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't in a big hurry and I moved to Arizona.

Plus, then 9/11 went down and I would have gotten displaced anyway.

[seagull]

Your question pertained to widebodies or the large narrow bodies. Part of the issue at the pax carriers is that widebodies make up a very small percentage of their fleets. Look at the numbers, typically only 10% of the pilots are flying widebodies there. That as opposed to companies like FedEx, where widebody flying makes up 65% or more of the flying, you have a dramatically different career progression, and a huge impact on career earnings. People tend to overlook that when running the numbers on the relative career value.

[Maximillian_Jenius]

So what is the typical upgrade time at the major cargo airlines.That are kinda top heavy with widebodies?

-Matthew

[scoobs]

At Fedex it seems the Bus is more senior then the MD. Somebody on flightinfo said that upgrades to the 727 were at 4 years.

[seagull]

I would venture that, with our Subic Bay base excluded, the upgrade to left seat of a widebody is probably sitting at 8 years or so.

[DE727UPS]

UPS is running about 10 years. Hourly pay is the same no matter which aircraft you fly.

[MQAAord]

Bill's coming up on his 6th year anniversary, and there's no upgrade in sight anytime soon.

Right before 9/11, the most senior guy in his class got a 737 CA bid for the former Express operation in MCO. Obviously, his 4th stripe got ripped back off pretty quick.

When I was first hired at Simmons/Eagle in 1995, Simmons upgrades were about 8 years. By 1999 that number fell to 2 years, possibly less. Now, it's back up to 8.

Ebb and flow.

[scoobs]

So how long would upgrade to the Bus take?

[typhoonpilot]

It's pretty funny that when I got into this business the question was, " how long will I have to be a flight engineer for? " If the legacy carrier in question offered anything less than 5 years that was really good. Nobody really thought about the upgrade to widebody captain. If you got hired at a young enough age then maybe you could expect it for your last few years of flying. At my first legacy airline interview in 1989 ( TWA ) they were saying that guys hired in November, 1968 were currently upgrading on the DC-9. Holy crap Fortunately I blew that interview and got hired by USAir a month later and went straight to the right seat of a DC-9. I was very happy to have bypassed the flight engineer seat. They were about the only carrier that you could hope for that to happen back then. Guys were upgrading on narrow body equipment in 5 years.

Fast forward to today and I am a furloughed USAirways first officer. The junior captain on the property has 19 years of seniority or more. The junior widebody skipper probably has 25 years. If USAirways/AWA survive and merge their seniority lists it is likely that I would never be able to hold widebody captain ( and I was 24 years old when I was hired ). If USAirways survived as a stand alone carrier I would upgrade on a widebody at the age of 55, after 31 years

At American Airlines I would bet the junior 757 skipper was hired around 1986/87. At United I would guess that early to mid 90s hire dates could hold 757 skipper. At Northwest it would be early 90s or late 80s. Doug can tell us what it is at Delta.

Life isn't about flying a widebody. It isn't that great really. You get more takeoff and landings in a narrow body and the job is more enjoyable. You have fewer time zone changes and feel better. The guys at SWA, JBLU, Air Tran, etc that have good paying narrow body jobs in a good working environment have the best jobs going.


Typhoonpilot

[Maximillian_Jenius]

[ QUOTE ]

Life isn't about flying a widebody. It isn't that great really. You get more takeoff and landings in a narrow body and the job is more enjoyable. You have fewer time zone changes and feel better. The guys at SWA, JBLU, Air Tran, etc that have good paying narrow body jobs in a good working environment have the best jobs going.


[/ QUOTE ]


I agree with you whole heartedly. I have no real desire (at this venture) to fly international i.e. europe/asia.
I want to fly 737-800/900,757/767,787,777,A320 & A330 transcon. And do some South America/Canada flying. I think that would be fun.But check back with me in 10-20 yrs should I ever make it onto a legacy and this could have all changed!

-Matthew

[seagull]

I am glad you are satisfied with your current position, but, frankly, this sounds like rationalization to me. Multiple legs gets old. Most of our guys view that sort of operation as just a glorified version of the regional they struggled to get away from.

Personally, I can't disagree more. International flying (if you are doing it right, especially) is FAR more challenging, diverse and interesting than domestic. At the end of my career, I can remember back to flying the IGS into HKG, wild approaches into airports in Asia, crossing the Himalaya, touring the great cities of the World (International layovers are way better), making friends all over the globe, etc.

As for widebody flying, I'll admit that my ego is boosted by big airplanes, but ego aside, it has a significant impact on your career earnings and retirement.

I've flown domestic, and at my place you can do both, switch monthly if you want. I had a few students in IOE who started out telling me that they knew they had to do an International trip for IOE, but afterwards they were going back to domestic flying (which is all they had done up to that point). Well, I showed them International, the flying, the layovers. Suffice to say that all of those that said that now choose to fly International EVERY month! I am personally proud of that record!

Of course, a big problem at the pax carriers is that for most, by the time you get out there making the big bucks, you're too old to properly enjoy it! Much better to have that fast upgrade and be out flying it in your 30s to 40s!

[ QUOTE ]

Life isn't about flying a widebody. It isn't that great really. You get more takeoff and landings in a narrow body and the job is more enjoyable. You have fewer time zone changes and feel better. The guys at SWA, JBLU, Air Tran, etc that have good paying narrow body jobs in a good working environment have the best jobs going.
Typhoonpilot

[/ QUOTE ]

[FlyChicaga]

I had to have this beat into my head by a friend:

"A pilots career is not about the destination. It's about the journey to the destination."

Enjoy the ride. You'll go up, you'll go down. Who knows WHAT you'll be flying in 35 years. It doesn't matter. It's all about the people you meet and the places you see along the way. The airlines of today are still in a big shakeup. I wouldn't be surprised to see the entire airline environment changed in 10 years. You can just fly, work hard, always learn, and dammit have some fun! If you are stressing about getting so much flight time or this and that, you are going to miss out on some real good times.

[typhoonpilot]

[ QUOTE ]
I am glad you are satisfied with your current position, but, frankly, this sounds like rationalization to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually I'm a B777 Captain for one of the top international airlines in the world. I average 18 sectors per month, which is way more than a 777 Captain at a U.S. legacy would have. I also have over 80 international destinations on my carriers network to choose from. Depending on my mood and the season I bid Europe flights, Asia flights, places I haven't been in awhile, or local out and backs. Our layovers are in much better hotels than a U.S. carrier would have. All this and I would still choose the aforementioned carriers over what I do.

I don't suffer from Shiny Jet Syndrome, nor do I care about size ( other than in my paycheck )

The point I am trying to make is that a new pilot in this industry should make sure he is chasing the right thing. Big jets and international destinations are nice but they may not provide the best lifestyle for you and your family.

Typhoonpilot

[typhoonpilot]

[ QUOTE ]
I had to have this beat into my head by a friend:

"A pilots career is not about the destination. It's about the journey to the destination."

Enjoy the ride. You'll go up, you'll go down. Who knows WHAT you'll be flying in 35 years. It doesn't matter. It's all about the people you meet and the places you see along the way. The airlines of today are still in a big shakeup. I wouldn't be surprised to see the entire airline environment changed in 10 years. You can just fly, work hard, always learn, and dammit have some fun! If you are stressing about getting so much flight time or this and that, you are going to miss out on some real good times.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very well said Matt.


TP

[MikeD]

I would likely say it all depends on the person and what they like. Some like seeing the world, others don't. Some like quick trips, regional style, but in bigger equipment; others prefer the longer hauls. I wouldn't necessarily say that any one is better than any other. Just different. Personally, I'd love to fly a DC-4, or C-123...or nearly anything else radial-engined, since I find jets to be rather......well......too modern.

But that's just me. Currently I have no choice, I'm stuck in the world of FMS. But there is a line on some international exchange flying I've got a line on, so we'll see.

[Doug Taylor]

It's all the ride!

I tell people that I've really enjoyed the journey getting to where I am, but some think that it's sacrilege when I don't speak of flying jets for a major airline as this life-affirming position.

It's all about the people I've met along the way. The good, the bad, the ebb and the flow.

[fender_jag]

Excellent posts, everyone. It's easy to be focused only on the future and lose track of where you are and how you got here. There is absolutely no way to predict what we'll be flying, how much we'll make, whom our employer will be, where our domicile is, etc.

[scoobs]

My question is how do you keep from getting bored during the long international flights?

[seagull]

I would agree that it's in the ride as well.

Typhoon, if you work for the carrier I think you do, we share many hotels around the World....

I think that International carriers are a whole different ball of wax, partly due to the amount you fly. I know that CX, in particular, seems to work their pilots a lot, as does Singapore and a few others.

For most domestic U.S. pilots, there is little difference in a career at a "legacy" carrier or SWA (except the latter offers more job stability, currently).

[Chris_Ford]

[ QUOTE ]
It's all the ride!

I tell people that I've really enjoyed the journey getting to where I am, but some think that it's sacrilege when I don't speak of flying jets for a major airline as this life-affirming position.

It's all about the people I've met along the way. The good, the bad, the ebb and the flow.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's just like life. You spend the first half wishing you were older, and the second half wishing you were younger

[seagull]

Bored? Heck, there is a lot to do. In the cockpit, fairly constant "housekeeping" with navigation, fuel, wx checks, position reports, etc. Plus, you have your meals, your time sleeping in the back, etc. It goes by surprisingly fast!