Gulfstream, good? bad? I don't know..

[eeg]

Question,

How many of you have gone through Their FO Program?
How many of you know people that have gone through their FO Program?
How many of you have visited their facilities?
How many of you know their training Captains? Instructors?

The truth about Gulfstream is that it works. I’ve meet many people that have gone though the program and gotten hired with other airlines. I’ve also meet many that have washed out of it. It’s not easy training, or spoon fed like many make it out to be. Training last about 3 months, then they ship you to either Daytona or Denver for your Sims and 85% of your check-ride then you complete the last 15% in the real airplane. If you can’t fly, or don’t pass your evals your gone simple as that. After that it’s IOE and then the line for 250 hours. While you’re flying the line it’s like any other airline, the captain flies his leg and the FO flies his. After you complete the 250 hours as SIC in the Beech 1900 then Gulfstream will either hire you or set you up with other airlines that WILL hire you, like Pinnacle, Cogan, Commutair, Great Lakes, ExpressJet, etc. I’ve seen about 250 to 300 pilots get hired this way. I’ve also seen about 30 fail.

Now before you guy’s jump all over me let me remind you that I DID NOT PFT. I did their ab initio program, and NO I don’t work for them either.

I just wrote this to give you guy’s an inside look at Gulfstream.

Is it good? Yes if you get hired and you’re happy
Is it bad? Yes, if you don’t get hired and you’re miserable.
One thing is sure though, Instructing is the only sure way.

[LFC]

uhhh...check out the "PFT Testimonials" post. It has just about everyones opinion on gulfstream. Its pretty funny.

[eeg]

Already did, Very funny

[kellwolf]

To me, it's not about if it works or not, it's what is it doing to the industry. I know it works. I've seen plenty of Pinnacle guys with "Gulftsream Academy" proudly diplayed on their Jepp cases. For me, instructing is gonna be the way to go. It might take me longer to get there, but I know I SHOULD be able to find that entry level job instructing, and it costs a LOT less. With a kid on the way in April, I need all the cost saving initiatives I can get.

[Doug Taylor]

Usually these threads pop up on a reliable basis, but this time we were about two weeks later than usual!

Strange, but very predictible!

[GatorFC]

[ QUOTE ]
Usually these threads pop up on a reliable basis, but this time we were about two weeks later than usual!

Strange, but very predictible!

[/ QUOTE ]You sound like the "Architect", Doug, and these PFT/Gulfstream threads are the "systemic anomalies" to your JC Matrix. Is this the sixth emergence of the anomaly?

[pscraig]

So what's your point???

[Doug Taylor]

Almost! Seriously, one could almost do a pretty extensive research paper on social trends and dynamics using a busy forum as a case study.

[Kristie]

not a bad idea really!

[John2375]

Yeah this topic definitly gets people's blood pressures rising!


If this hurts the industry so bad, then shouldn't the industry police itself? Obviously it can't, and according to the other thread, other countries and airlines use this method almost exclusively, so if you're flying over the Pacific there's a good chance you're relief crew barely has 1000 hours between them yet they forked over 100K or whatever to get on with the airline.

People who want to instruct are awesome- don't get me wrong! I have the highest respect for them and obviously none of us would have any flying expereince w/o them.

It all comes down to people wanting what they want...some want to take an "easier" way but it's not easier at all - putting yourself into an airline environment w/checkrides and so forth is tough on anyone.
The most important thing HAS to be: Be the best pilot you can be, professional and competent at all times, and everything else will fall into place. If you're not competent, you're not going to make it either route.

If you're flying for Delta 15 years from now, Doug won't throw you out of the cockpit just because you didn't do it like him, unless you start an approach to the wrong airport or something but that's not going to happen either!
If an interviewer asked you if you bought your time, you would obviously explain NO, you bought your training and then were hired as a paid crew member by xyz company . If they're anti-FPT, then I don't want to work for them anyhow. And people DO get hired and not blackballed after PFT programs, so it's not a waste. AND...even if not *every* company hires you, someone will...stay on w/them and get a couple thousand hours and you'll be getting hired somewhere else if you're looking.

In 15 years we'll see if these FPT guys are still going strong or working at McDonald's...and we'll see if the industry is thriving or if people are taking trains instead.
And all these people here so sore about this will still have gotten a job and we'll all have what we want.

[Doug Taylor]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah this topic definitly gets people's blood pressures rising!


[/ QUOTE ]

Because it comes up time and time again. The people "in the know" say it's a bad idea, the people who had their hearts set on a similar program get their feelings hurt and voraciously defend it. It's kind of like when you're 7 years old and you break the code on playing "Tic Tac Toe" and your cousin just absolutely insists on playing it on an 18 hour drive through Texas.

[ QUOTE ]
If this hurts the industry so bad, then shouldn't the industry police itself?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because people don't listen to advice and it's extraordinarily profitable. As long as people have the "I'll Fly For Food" attitude, there's going to be a market to serve those individuals.

[ QUOTE ]
If you're flying for Delta 15 years from now, Doug won't throw you out of the cockpit just because you didn't do it like him, unless you start an approach to the wrong airport or something but that's not going to happen either!

[/ QUOTE ]

???

[ QUOTE ]
If an interviewer asked you if you bought your time, you would obviously explain NO, you bought your training and then were hired as a paid crew member by xyz company .

[/ QUOTE ]

About the 8th paragraph down. - something I got from a "Former Manager of Pilot Selection" at a major airline.

[aerotim]

Here we go again. Second day in a row.

[H46Bubba]

Gulfstream is bad uuumm kaaayyy!

[montanapilot]

it seems no matter what you tell people they are always looking for their magic snakeoil that will make everything easy for them.

[BCTAv8r]

Ok, so what's the difference between an internship and PFT?

[montanapilot]

Post deleted by montanapilot

[BCTAv8r]

What? I just asked the difference between the two. As in "let's compare".

[John2375]

True...BUT an internship is a nice way for a company to get work done and not have to pay the sucker!
Not just in flying, but at radio stations, sports clubs, etc.. a friend of mine in college did stat work for the Boston Celtics in an unpaid internship program.. ?? They could've paid someone but why not let someone dreaming of one day broadcasting for them do some free work?!?

[DE727UPS]

"The truth about Gulfstream is that it works."

Of course it works, depending on what your defination of what "works" is. To me, it works cause these guys get on at Pinnacle with super low time after paying for a right seat job. It's them paying Gstream to be a required crewmember that is wrong. How can you argue that it's good for the profession for guys to be willing to buy a job? The answer is that it's NOT good for the profession, but it's good for the PFJer.

I think it's interesting to look at the backgrounds of the proponents of PFJ vs those who don't like it. Those of us who don't like it have been in the industry for a while and understand the need for unions and sticking together for the good of the profession...the good of the career. Those who think PFJ is okay are new guys who just see it as another way to break into the field. They are only thinking of themselves and not the career as a whole. I don't really blame them, either, cause I remember when I was the same way......

[DE727UPS]

Internship. You do a job for a compay for little or no pay, but you benefit from learning about the company, the job, and get a foot in the door to work there in the future. Internships are common throughout many industries.

PFJ. You pay cash, upfront, to do a job for little or no pay, that is traditionally a paid, entry level, job at any other company. PFJ is not common in the US airline profession.

[eeg]

[ QUOTE ]
So what's your point???

[/ QUOTE ]

I just wanted to give people the "inside view" of PFT that's all. Allot of people think that you're just sitting there, raising and lowering the gear handle, etc... When in all actuality you're flying the thing.

[montanapilot]

whether your flying or pulling a gear handle still doesnt change the fact that you are stealing jobs from people.

[eeg]

[ QUOTE ]
To me, it's not about if it works or not, it's what is it doing to the industry. I know it works. I've seen plenty of Pinnacle guys with "Gulftsream Academy" proudly diplayed on their Jepp cases. For me, instructing is gonna be the way to go. It might take me longer to get there, but I know I SHOULD be able to find that entry level job instructing, and it costs a LOT less. With a kid on the way in April, I need all the cost saving initiatives I can get.

[/ QUOTE ]

And that's why I'm getting my CFI. I look at it this way; they can PFT all they want. It might take me longer to get there but once I'm there, I'll have more options available within the airline, like; check-airman, Sim instructor, etc...

[BCTAv8r]

Well, it wouldn't be so bad if the person didn't have to pay a thing for training, got a job, but then had to work for free for the next 3 months.

[eeg]

[ QUOTE ]
whether your flying or pulling a gear handle still doesnt change the fact that you are stealing jobs from people.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never said it did. And how is that stealing again? Remember it's not stealing a job it's paying for the training for that job.