Strange Question

[c172captain]

There is a high possibility that this question is on the same level as a non pilot asking me if there is such thing as an eject button in my C172 but....


I've always wondered this: Is there any kind of instrumentation in the helicopter that'll tell you if you're moving while in a hover? Just something that'll indicate if you're drifting or what not.

Thanks

[Ian J]

The AH-64D Apache has a screen on its MFD that will show your drift from a given point while in a hover. It is used because the Apache will typically sit in a hover for a long time while both pilots concentrate on targeting and it helps with situational awareness.

Other than that, I don't know of any conventional helicopter that does that. You just normally have to use your Mark I eyeballs to gauge drift.

[Blackhawk]

The MH-60 had this in the FLIR- similar what the AH-64 has.
The HUD (heads up display) has this. The difference from the MH-60 is that the MH-60 has a "doghouse" that represents your desired GPS position, but the HUD does not have this. There is just a vector line that tells you if you are drifting.

[Velocipede]

The H-46 relied on the Mk1 Mod 0 eyeball.

[Blackhawk]

Originally Posted by Velocipede

The H-46 relied on the Mk1 Mod 0 eyeball.

Which unfortunately does not work very well over areas of low/no contrast, such as over water or desert at night or in low visibility conditions. With the MH-60 we could actually conduct a 0/0 hover and approach. Does not work as well with the HUD as it does not have the GPS point store.

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by Blackhawk

Which unfortunately does not work very well over areas of low/no contrast, such as over water or desert at night or in low visibility conditions.

No doubt. My scariest times in Iraq/Afghanistan had nothing to do with the enemy and everything to do with what you wrote above.

[Blackhawk]

Originally Posted by Ian J

No doubt. My scariest times in Iraq/Afghanistan had nothing to do with the enemy and everything to do with what you wrote above.

WO1 to me while conducting NVG dust landing training on a 0 moon 0% illum. night: "When do you stop getting apprehensive about doing these?"
Me: "You don't."

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by Blackhawk

WO1 to me while conducting NVG dust landing training on a 0 moon 0% illum. night: "When do you stop getting apprehensive about doing these?"
Me: "You don't."

Nice.

My thoughts on my first flight as an NVG PIC: "Wait, why did I want to take that checkride again?"

[The Fez]

Originally Posted by Blackhawk

The MH-60 had this in the FLIR- similar what the AH-64 has.
The HUD (heads up display) has this. The difference from the MH-60 is that the MH-60 has a "doghouse" that represents your desired GPS position, but the HUD does not have this. There is just a vector line that tells you if you are drifting.

Could you explain a little how the "doghouse" works in the H-60? I'm trying to imagine the ways such a depiction could tell me my position in a hover.

I've always been curious how helo pilots are able to land in pitch-black/brown-out conditions. On that note, is there a common variable (aside from the wx) in mishaps that occur in adverse landing conditions?

[Heli411]

Speaking as a former ENG (Electronic News Gathering) Pilot ... It's all about the eyeball. Picking out a ground reference (while remembering to scan for traffic) and using it as a reference. My personal best is about a one hour hover while maintaining a good camera shot

[AfghanSkidKid]

The Crewchief or Door Gunner (depending on customer) is a good drift indicator.

[FlyDon]

The Navy used hover drift indicators in some aircraft. Pretty much impossible to hover over a spot in the open sea at night without it.

[Blackhawk]

Originally Posted by The Fez

Could you explain a little how the "doghouse" works in the H-60? I'm trying to imagine the ways such a depiction could tell me my position in a hover.

I've always been curious how helo pilots are able to land in pitch-black/brown-out conditions. On that note, is there a common variable (aside from the wx) in mishaps that occur in adverse landing conditions?

Sorry for taking so long to respond. I just noticed your post.
The doghouse is symbology that looks... well, like a dog house. It represents your desired GPS position. You then have a circle that represents the helicopter. You try to keep the circle in the doghouse. If the circle goes to the right, you need left cyclic. You also have a vector indicator, a line that goes from your circle and indicates your direction of drift and increases in size as your drift speed increases. You also have a radar altimeter read out. It's kind of like a video game... keep the circle in the doghouse, vector trend at 0, lower the collective and use the radar altimeter for distance to the ground. Works pretty good. Also good for over water hovering, such as with hoist operations. After about 5 minutes of it, however, your eyeballs are ready to melt.
The common variable in adverse landing (and take off) condition accidents is drift. Drift leads to dynamic rollover during takeoffs and landings in dust. Also, skid helicopters are usually more susceptible to them as they usually have a lower dynamic roll over critical angle as opposed to wheel helicopters.

[The Fez]

Originally Posted by Blackhawk

Sorry for taking so long to respond. I just noticed your post.
The doghouse is symbology that looks... well, like a dog house. It represents your desired GPS position. You then have a circle that represents the helicopter. You try to keep the circle in the doghouse. If the circle goes to the right, you need left cyclic. You also have a vector indicator, a line that goes from your circle and indicates your direction of drift and increases in size as your drift speed increases. You also have a radar altimeter read out. It's kind of like a video game... keep the circle in the doghouse, vector trend at 0, lower the collective and use the radar altimeter for distance to the ground. Works pretty good. Also good for over water hovering, such as with hoist operations. After about 5 minutes of it, however, your eyeballs are ready to melt.
The common variable in adverse landing (and take off) condition accidents is drift. Drift leads to dynamic rollover during takeoffs and landings in dust. Also, skid helicopters are usually more susceptible to them as they usually have a lower dynamic roll over critical angle as opposed to wheel helicopters.

Cool, thanks. That display seems to make sense. I was imagining something similar, but the doghouse kept throwing me off.

It all sounds pretty straightforward...until its dark, dusty, and there's the possibility of someone shooting at you. I'm sure it will make more sense when I'm staring at it in person.

[Low_Level_Hell]

Originally Posted by Ian J

The AH-64D Apache has a screen on its MFD that will show your drift from a given point while in a hover. It is used because the Apache will typically sit in a hover for a long time while both pilots concentrate on targeting and it helps with situational awareness.

Other than that, I don't know of any conventional helicopter that does that. You just normally have to use your Mark I eyeballs to gauge drift.

Its ususally displayed on our helmet mounted display that sits right on our eyeball. Works very well and gives us a velocity vector, cyclic displasment, weapon/sensor info, head tracker, target/waypoint aquisition, attitude, altitude, heading and infrared image if we need it all displayed on one itty bitty screen. Now that I think about it I'm probably incapable of flying with out symbology.

[The Fez]

Originally Posted by Low_Level_Hell

Its ususally displayed on our helmet mounted display that sits right on our eyeball. Works very well and gives us a velocity vector, cyclic displasment, weapon/sensor info, head tracker, target/waypoint aquisition, attitude, altitude, heading and infrared image if we need it all displayed on one itty bitty screen. Now that I think about it I'm probably incapable of flying with out symbology.

With that much info travelling on one ocular nerve, I'm surprised you can fly at all! Seriously, I can see how something like an R-22 might be too basic after flying something that complicated.

[Blackhawk]

Originally Posted by The Fez

With that much info travelling on one ocular nerve, I'm surprised you can fly at all! Seriously, I can see how something like an R-22 might be too basic after flying something that complicated.

It's actually great information to have while flying low level at night and you learn to compartmentalize the information. In the past while flying NVGs you either had to rely on your copilot to relay information or glance in the cockpit. Not something you like to do low level, on approach to the sand... other situations. Heck, in the dark days of NVG flying we had to turn off all the panel lights as they shut down the NVGs. That was... interesting. It's also great while navigating as you no longer have to look inside the cockpit for navigation information as it is displayed on your HUD.
Now you can glance through your HUD on the goggles or TADS and see your RADAR altimeter read out, GPS course pointer, ground speed, airspeed, engine information... what ever else you want. Don't know about the TADS, but I'm sure it's like the NVG HUD where you have different pages you can select with different items, or a decluter page.
It's kind of like going from a simple airplane to a comlex airplane. After a while you get used to the information.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by Blackhawk

Heck, in the dark days of NVG flying we had to turn off all the panel lights as they shut down the NVGs. That was... interesting. .

Before the Glendale green NVG cockpit lighting refit, we had to do the same, as well as have the velcro'd chem lights on different parts of the panel.

[woutlaw]

I have no idea how you guys can fly those things.

Dynamic roll over, loss of tail rotor effectiveness, retreating blade stall, lord knows what else that can go wrong. Just thinking about it makes my head hurt.

I'd love to give it a go one of these days because they are so friggin cool, but man, there's a lot of moving parts.

I've never met a helo pilot who wasn't, um, really strange. And I honestly mean that as a compliment.

[Blackhawk]

Originally Posted by MikeD

Before the Glendale green NVG cockpit lighting refit, we had to do the same, as well as have the velcro'd chem lights on different parts of the panel.

Fortunately I just missed the full face PVS-5 days- I first flew with the cut-away 5s.

[Blackhawk]

Originally Posted by MikeD

Before the Glendale green NVG cockpit lighting refit, we had to do the same, as well as have the velcro'd chem lights on different parts of the panel.

BTW, you know Matt Benson? He use to be over in one of the AZ branches.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by Blackhawk

BTW, you know Matt Benson? He use to be over in one of the AZ branches.

Yes. He's an H-60 guy in my Air Branch here in DMA.

[Blackhawk]

Originally Posted by MikeD

Yes. He's an H-60 guy in my Air Branch here in DMA.

Yeah, that's him. He and I were room mates in Korea back in '89.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by Blackhawk

Yeah, that's him. He and I were room mates in Korea back in '89.

Yeah, I believe he's out of the AZ Army Guard for good now, just flying CBP.

Korea.....I remember getting in trouble at Camp Page once. Took an A-10 on a local single-ship hop. Couldn't find any fighters to FAC for (the two flights I had canx'd) at OP 2/3, so decided to drop into Page to beat up the pattern at that post that apparently had rotary-wing only. Tower there didn't mind having me there, but somehow the AF got wind of it and went ape about it. Didn't see what the issue was.....I'm working the pattern at an Army post, no different than me dropping into Libby/Laguna/Seneca/Michael AAF etc, here in CONUS and doing the same. Army didn't seem to care.

Korea.....land of the not quite right.

[Blackhawk]

Originally Posted by MikeD

Yeah, I believe he's out of the AZ Army Guard for good now, just flying CBP.

Korea.....I remember getting in trouble at Camp Page once. Took an A-10 on a local single-ship hop. Couldn't find any fighters to FAC for (the two flights I had canx'd) at OP 2/3, so decided to drop into Page to beat up the pattern at that post that apparently had rotary-wing only. Tower there didn't mind having me there, but somehow the AF got wind of it and went ape about it. Didn't see what the issue was.....I'm working the pattern at an Army post, no different than me dropping into Libby/Laguna/Seneca/Michael AAF etc, here in CONUS and doing the same. Army didn't seem to care.

Korea.....land of the not quite right.

Land of the no rules. (Just don't fly into P-73 or cross the DMZ).
I remember crossing a ridge line and passing an A-10 going the other way. He must have had the same idea we had as he immediately honked into a steep bank and began trying to get a bead on us. We both came over guard at the same time, "Guns guns guns." I think his 30mm Gatling gun would have done a little more damage than our 7.62 Gatling gun, but he missed us and we got him.
Ahh... going to Osan and chasing Air Force chicks... taxi cab races... having a C-5 cut us off at Humphreys at night (that pesky localizer was almost the same as Osan's).
So many stories from over there that I would post but I'd be afraid of the Army hauling me back on active duty for a court martial. Is there a statute of limitations on being a young, dumb, invincible LT with the keys to a $10,000,000 aircraft and no adult supervision?