Flying entire life without AFD - Page 3

Polar742 · November 3rd, 2009, 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

All I'm saying is protect yourself against the unexpected.

I think if you're at the big brown desk talking to the FAA and I said, "Well, AirNav didn't mention anything about XYZ", I'd expect a very blank stare!

Protect yourself.

Just to bolster.....

A conversation with the FAA went like this after someone took an intersection takeoff without legit data (even though the airplane needed about 5000 BFL and they were 200' down a 10,000' RWY) with the whole FSDO watching. The FSDO was in the airplane that was blocking the full length TO distance.:

FAA: "So, where'd you get the takeoff data"

CA: "Here"

FAA didn't see any humor in that.

aevfo · November 3rd, 2009, 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtpilot

The instructor in me also has to point out that your VFR sectionals are not current without a current AFD.

ummmmm...... what?

minitour · November 3rd, 2009, 18:44

fltplan.com + Jeppview + Binder 1 = All I need. Anything else is covered under my PIC emergency authority under 91.3

-mini

MikeD · November 3rd, 2009, 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by minitour

fltplan.com + Jeppview + Binder 1 = All I need. Anything else is covered under my PIC emergency authority under 91.3

-mini

In my situation, the legal was not an issue. Having the ability to find info on my own quickly paid dividends.

It's surprising how many people are so against adding to their SA bag with a small 1 lb book that's 6 inches long by 4 inches or so wide and less than a half inch thick, and cheap cost to boot. Again, you're not unsafe without it, but the abject animosity against it here is surprising.

In aviation, never say never, and never say always. It usually depends.

As I've always said: Anything and Everything can happen at any given time, with or without prior notice.

Polar742 · November 3rd, 2009, 18:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeD

In my situation, the legal was not an issue. Having the ability to find info on my own quickly paid dividends.

It's surprising how many people are so against adding to their SA bag with a small 1 lb book that's 6 inches long by 4 inches or so wide and less than a half inch thick, and cheap cost to boot.

In aviation, never say never, and never say always. It usually depends.

You need some real world experience.

Jake Busey is sad....

MikeD · November 3rd, 2009, 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polar742

You need some real world experience.

Jake Busey is sad....

Champcar · November 3rd, 2009, 18:57

When I fly I always try to have as much info as I can with me for my route and surrounding areas. I don't get why pilots make things so difficult, just carry the 4 dollar book. Its a trivial thing to argue about.

CaptQuagmire · November 3rd, 2009, 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeD

In my situation, the legal was not an issue. Having the ability to find info on my own quickly paid dividends.

It's surprising how many people are so against adding to their SA bag with a small 1 lb book that's 6 inches long by 4 inches or so wide and less than a half inch thick, and cheap cost to boot. Again, you're not unsafe without it, but the abject animosity against it here is surprising.

In aviation, never say never, and never say always. It usually depends.

As I've always said: Anything and Everything can happen at any given time, with or without prior notice.

That would be handy if I flew in only one region. I fly in all seven regions. Many times in two or 3 days. Should I have to carry all seven books? I don't have room for an extra 7 pound cube that's 6x4x7. Where would I keep the candy and pringles?

MikeD · November 3rd, 2009, 18:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptQuagmire

That would be handy if I flew in only one region. I fly in all seven regions. Many times in two or 3 days. Should I have to carry all seven books? I don't have room for an extra 7 pound cube that's 6x4x7. Where would I keep the candy and pringles?

Use it as you see fit, if you desire. I'm just putting out there where something that I'd thought I never really needed came in very handy in the right situation. Doesn't mean you have to carry a USAF Navigator's case.

Doug Taylor · November 3rd, 2009, 19:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polar742

You need some real world experience.

Jake Busey is sad....

Quote o' the day!

ppragman · November 3rd, 2009, 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Champcar

When I fly I always try to have as much info as I can with me for my route and surrounding areas. I don't get why pilots make things so difficult, just carry the 4 dollar book. Its a trivial thing to argue about.

But but! Accidents don't happen to me, nothing goes wrong, and I can always make it to my destination airport as planned.

MarkE · November 3rd, 2009, 19:07

As a lowly private pilot and because my instructor and DPE drilled it in to my head to use current materials, I bought one a while back at the local pilot supply store along with new charts. The clerk asked if I had a checkride coming up. Said nope, just wanted current publications. He said, well, don't see that every day.

minitour · November 3rd, 2009, 19:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeD

As I've always said: Anything and Everything can happen at any given time, with or without prior notice.

Which is why I'm sure you carry all paper charts, both VFR and IFR for the entire route of your flight as well as any possible diversions, right? I just don't have that kind of room in the plane.

Anything I need to know about an airport, I can pull up in Jeppview on the EFB in about 5 finger pokes. fltplan.com+Jeppview+Binder 1=Plenty of information.

Between that and the FMS, ATC, other pilots on frequency, etc...I'm not too concerned.

-mini

Roger, Roger · November 3rd, 2009, 19:11

There's a lot of useful info in the A/FD that's NOT on Airnav. Plus I've never been able to get on Airnav in flight...

TFaudree_ERAU · November 3rd, 2009, 19:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by mojo6911

So runway length on a sectional chart or TPP isn't legal? Also, the airport diagram on Airnav comes directly from NACO.

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0911/06039AD.PDF

Just because there is 5000' of pavement doesn't necessarily mean that all 5000' of it is available in your take off calculations. See below.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhugz

Can you reference that for me?

Quote:

Originally Posted by aevfo

So you are saying that a 10-9 is not a legal source for t/o and landing distances?

Take a look at Naples, FL (KAPF). Runway 14/32 to be specific. The 10-9 doesn't show anything about a limit to the runway distance for take off. Naturally, one would assume that all 5000' is available.

However, if you dig into the A/FD, you will find that the published ASDA (Accelerate-Stop Distance Available) for runway 14 is 4,550' and for runway 32 it is 4,870'. The limiting factor for take off performance calculations for Part 25 aircraft is the shortest of the Take Off Runway Available (TORA), Take Off Distance Available (TODA) or the ASDA.

Old standards required only a 200' Runway Safety Area (RSA) past the end of the runway. In keeping up with ICAO standards, the FAA now requires a minimum of 1000'. What that means is that if there is an obstacle 500' off the end of a 5000' runway, your ASDA is reduced to 4,500'. Again, you can't find this information anywhere other than the A/FD.

MikeD · November 3rd, 2009, 19:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by minitour

Which is why I'm sure you carry all paper charts, both VFR and IFR for the entire route of your flight as well as any possible diversions, right? I just don't have that kind of room in the plane.

Anything I need to know about an airport, I can pull up in Jeppview on the EFB in about 5 finger pokes. fltplan.com+Jeppview+Binder 1=Plenty of information.

Between that and the FMS, ATC, other pilots on frequency, etc...I'm not too concerned.

-mini

I carry what I can, within reason. And to me, the AFD is now reasonable for the above described reasons. No room for it? What are you flying, an F-15? Will Jeppview help you in the cockpit (is it accessible up there at all times?) Again, my situation was unique. For me, the $4 spent on an AFD came in super handy at a time when I needed to make things happen quickly. ATC, other pilots, etc....weren't much help due to limitations outside their control. Instead of depending on outside sources to take care of you, you've got to take care of yourself for when the crutches don't work.

If you're so against a little non-technolgy book, thats up to you. Nothing illegal there. Hate to need it and not have it though.....

Champcar · November 3rd, 2009, 19:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by ppragman

But but! Accidents don't happen to me, nothing goes wrong, and I can always make it to my destination airport as planned.

If you have a set of jepps then that's cool. But if someone is just going out there with what they have printed off of fltplan.com then I find that kind of ignorant. Why do pilots feel the need to push these things? I just find the arguement of "this is how the regs are inturpreted" just lazy. Maybe its because they feel bad ass cause they don't carry the green book...the next chuck yegar

CaptQuagmire · November 3rd, 2009, 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeD

No room for it? What are you flying, an F-15?

Ever have to squeeze into a 20 series Lear Jet?

MikeD · November 3rd, 2009, 19:37

Another thing I find interesting are how many believe that ATC has instant answers for you. ATC will give all the help they can, but oftentimes, answers to questions might be able to be found by you quicker than by waiting for ATC, as in my case. But pilots are always taught that "just ask ATC, they'll make it happen or have the answer," when that's not always the case.

Here's another wives tale that's taught to pilots: That when you declare an emergency, all traffic is instantly and immediately cleared away for you. Wrong. Yes, you're become an immediate priority when you declare, but that doesn't mean ATC instantly drops all other traffic they have to work, or other planes just freeze in place and you're immediately vectored to the field. More often than not it can happen, but thats not always the case. I saw one time where the controller had to still keep his flow going to landing, but work the IFE aircraft in as best as he can in order to not create a traffic conflict just because there's now an emergency. The pilot involved just couldn't seem to understand that. Even me personally, I was once RTB to a field when WX socked in at my destination an over much of the Korean penninsula. Heading to my 2nd divert (first one was low WX in too, tried an approach there but couldn't break out) over a busy freq, I declare an emergency for fuel (two fuel low warning lights) and get shortly switched to approach by the ROK controller, to where I check in as an emergency and request short vectors to the PAR. I'm informed by the ROK approach controller that he copies the emergency and is unable short vectors and gives me a radial/DME to hold at with a quick EFC, reason being that I'm emergency #6 airborne at the field at that moment who's awaiting the PAR: 3 ahead of me with emergency fuel (F-5/F-16), 1 hung ordnance unknown secure/unsecure (F-4), and 1 with an engine malfunction (F-4). The emergency card wasn't buying me much that night.

So things aren't as easy and simple as taught in day to day world of instruction, where everything fits in a nice, neat canned answer.

MikeD · November 3rd, 2009, 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptQuagmire

Ever have to squeeze into a 20 series Lear Jet?

24B yes. Are all your pubs in your lap? There's room between/behind you. Small yes, but not as completely small as a fighter cockpit, and I was able to carry a fairly useful amount.

gtpilot · November 3rd, 2009, 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by wjmiller3

What???

Forgive me, the AFD contains the appropriate chart updates that can also be found in NOTAMs and an FAA inspector will not consider the chart current without those NOTAMs. It's just easier to carry the AFD instead of printing out the NOTAMS.

gtpilot · November 3rd, 2009, 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptQuagmire

Ever have to squeeze into a 20 series Lear Jet?

Always loved trying to stuffing the NACO charts for the entire US into those closets!

CaptQuagmire · November 3rd, 2009, 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeD

24B yes. Are all your pubs in your lap? There's room between/behind you. Small yes, but not as completely small as a fighter cockpit, and I was able to carry a fairly useful amount.

All we can fit between and behind us are the 9 jepp books. I guess since we are ALWAYS a fuel emergency, we're screwed.

MikeD · November 3rd, 2009, 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptQuagmire

All we can fit between and behind us are the 9 jepp books. I guess since we are ALWAYS a fuel emergency, we're screwed.

Well, you didn't mention the 9 Jepp books! Now I'm following you......

On a separate note.....what a fun bird that 20-series.

Polar742 · November 3rd, 2009, 19:44

I'm still hung up on the disturbing fact of MikeD stuffing himself into a Lear 20 series cockpit.

November 3rd, 2009, 18:44	#53
minitour Old Skool Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: . Posts: 4,236	Re: Flying entire life without AFD fltplan.com + Jeppview + Binder 1 = All I need. Anything else is covered under my PIC emergency authority under 91.3 -mini

November 3rd, 2009, 18:57	#57
Champcar Old Skool Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: KROC Posts: 2,360	Re: Flying entire life without AFD When I fly I always try to have as much info as I can with me for my route and surrounding areas. I don't get why pilots make things so difficult, just carry the 4 dollar book. Its a trivial thing to argue about.

November 3rd, 2009, 19:07	#62
MarkE Old Skool Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Tarzana, CA (KVNY) Posts: 2,157	Re: Flying entire life without AFD As a lowly private pilot and because my instructor and DPE drilled it in to my head to use current materials, I bought one a while back at the local pilot supply store along with new charts. The clerk asked if I had a checkride coming up. Said nope, just wanted current publications. He said, well, don't see that every day. __________________ "I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I’m not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."

November 3rd, 2009, 19:11	#64
Roger, Roger Old Skool Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Lone Star Executive Posts: 2,649	Re: Flying entire life without AFD There's a lot of useful info in the A/FD that's NOT on Airnav. Plus I've never been able to get on Airnav in flight... __________________ Current A&P. Occasional CFI. Still wannabe Freight Dog.

November 3rd, 2009, 19:37	#69
MikeD Administrator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pinal Airpark, AZ (KMZJ) Posts: 12,034	Re: Flying entire life without AFD Another thing I find interesting are how many believe that ATC has instant answers for you. ATC will give all the help they can, but oftentimes, answers to questions might be able to be found by you quicker than by waiting for ATC, as in my case. But pilots are always taught that "just ask ATC, they'll make it happen or have the answer," when that's not always the case. Here's another wives tale that's taught to pilots: That when you declare an emergency, all traffic is instantly and immediately cleared away for you. Wrong. Yes, you're become an immediate priority when you declare, but that doesn't mean ATC instantly drops all other traffic they have to work, or other planes just freeze in place and you're immediately vectored to the field. More often than not it can happen, but thats not always the case. I saw one time where the controller had to still keep his flow going to landing, but work the IFE aircraft in as best as he can in order to not create a traffic conflict just because there's now an emergency. The pilot involved just couldn't seem to understand that. Even me personally, I was once RTB to a field when WX socked in at my destination an over much of the Korean penninsula. Heading to my 2nd divert (first one was low WX in too, tried an approach there but couldn't break out) over a busy freq, I declare an emergency for fuel (two fuel low warning lights) and get shortly switched to approach by the ROK controller, to where I check in as an emergency and request short vectors to the PAR. I'm informed by the ROK approach controller that he copies the emergency and is unable short vectors and gives me a radial/DME to hold at with a quick EFC, reason being that I'm emergency #6 airborne at the field at that moment who's awaiting the PAR: 3 ahead of me with emergency fuel (F-5/F-16), 1 hung ordnance unknown secure/unsecure (F-4), and 1 with an engine malfunction (F-4). The emergency card wasn't buying me much that night. So things aren't as easy and simple as taught in day to day world of instruction, where everything fits in a nice, neat canned answer. __________________ *You want answers?*

November 3rd, 2009, 19:44	#75
Polar742 Old Skool Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Rockledge Posts: 3,147	Re: Flying entire life without AFD I'm still hung up on the disturbing fact of MikeD stuffing himself into a Lear 20 series cockpit.

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